Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

rightwingdub

not yet wrote: »

SW 21 Billion = no return whatsoever.

PS 15-16 billion = wide range of services which keep this country functioning.

I know where I would cut. As some ''people'' have said on here ''30-40'' pay cut and 50,0000 let go. would decimate our economy, It would means billions taken out of circulation by the very people who spend.

Anyone who is unemployed for more than 18 months shouldn't receive welfare benefits they would then be solely eligible for food stamps, abolish the lone parent family payment, cut the dole by 25%, oap by 15%, child benefit to €90 per month per child capped at 3 kids, cut rent allowance by 40% etc.

squod

spikethedog wrote: »

10% cut on all welfare payments in my opinion as well. That would save over €2 billion annually.

Someone will have to explain this to me. How are we to save €2bn through a 10% cut in payments?

Silentcorner

Before we thrash out our own particular suggestions, we may want to look at WHO will be negotiating on our behalf.

These negotiations have very real implications for all sectors of Irish society, it is either cut services, cut wages, cut services and wages.

I have two requests on that front

1 Members of the Troika negotiate on behalf of the taxpayer
2 Brendan Howlin is not left within a country mile of the negotiating venue

Before I'm torn apart by certain posters, I stress the above is a wish list...

opti0nal

rightwingdub wrote: »

.Outsoucing needs to happen as well eg passport offices..

Driving licenses are being outsourced. They're going to cost us more and the work and profits have gone to France and Switzerland.

sarumite

opti0nal wrote: »

Driving licenses are being outsourced. They're going to cost us more and the work and profits have gone to France and Switzerland.

How much does a current driving licence cost? HOw much will the new ones be?

Gumbo

opti0nal wrote: »

Driving licenses are being outsourced. They're going to cost us more and the work and profits have gone to France and Switzerland.

sarumite wrote: »

How much does a current driving licence cost? HOw much will the new ones be?

Exactly. Drivers licence will now cost you €55 from the 19th January. Currently cost you €20-€25.

Wicklowandy

not yet wrote: »

SW 21 Billion = no return whatsoever.

PS 15-16 billion = wide range of services which keep this country functioning.

I know where I would cut. As some ''people'' have said on here ''30-40'' pay cut and 50,0000 let go. would decimate our economy, It would means billions taken out of circulation by the very people who spend.

To be fair, welfare payments are spent in the economy, probably in their entirity.

After having a good, permanant pensionable private sector job from leaving college, i have spent the last 3 years on contracts of 6-9 months and some periods of having to sign on. My wife has been the same for two years.

Our combined income has peaked and troughed during this period, but we've managed to stay afloat, and even though the two of us are working now (at over 50% nett less than we were 3yrs ago for similar work) we ' re always preparing for the possible ending and non renewal of contracts.

People on long term social welfare payments are being driven deeper and deeper into a hole, and the economy suffers in every way; there is not enough jobs or training courses for everybody.

A lot of opinion on this thread is taken from a perspective of secure employment; ill ask you a question; do you believe if you were a recent graduate today, you would get anything like the opportunities you got at the time, and would progress as far as you have? If you answer yes, you're blind to the future of our country and have a massive sense of entitlement.

Cuts are needed, but protection has to be there for the lowest paid workers and job seekers. To cut heavily at this level will only hurt our economy more.

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

Exactly. Drivers licence will now cost you €55 from the 19th January. Currently cost you €20-€25.

They cost more than that though. The current cost of €20-25 doesn't include the any costs paid for out of taxation. That is a just a extra fee on top of what is already paid through general taxation.

Gumbo

sarumite wrote: »

They cost more than that though. The current cost of €20-25 doesn't include the any costs paid for out of taxation. That is a just a extra fee on top of what is already paid through general taxation.

Forget the hidden costs for the moment. The end cost to you and me is increasing by €35. A service provided by the public sector is €20 which will now be contracted out and will now cost me and you €55. That's a mega increase % wise, although broken down over the 10 years it will be valid it's not major.

Also we will be getting a new credit card style licence so maybe it's worth the increase. My point is that once all these services that people are screaming to be contracted out occurs, then the price we pay will go through the roof by the end user.

For example, what if tomorrow councils decided to charge the full cost of a planning application to the public? Your typical domestic application which costs joe soap €34 will jump to €500 over night. Some services have to be subsidised and thus make a loss to be deemed a public service.

woodoo

sarumite wrote: »

34-35 hour weeks should be a thing of the past.

I think it should be the future. A much better work life balance. The elites have us all working too much.

35hrs is 9 to 5 with an hour for lunch.

Paulzx

rightwingdub wrote: »

Pay cuts of between 15-50% dpending on salary under the following

<€30k 15%
€30,001-€70,000 25% (eg 25% of the next €40,000)
€70,001-€110,000 35% (eg 35% of earnings between 70-€110k)
€110,001-€150,000 45% (eg 45% of earnings between €110,001-€150,000)
>€150k 50%

Wake up people smell the coffee drastic pay cuts need to happen. Abolish all allowances

A further 75,000 redundancies as well in the ps. .

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh.........................another signed up member of the random number lottery.



I'm sure you know exactly where the 75,000 redundancy figure is to come from.

Seriously, how you expect anyone to take you seriously is beyond me when you just throw ad hoc figures around

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

Forget the hidden costs for the moment. The end cost to you and me is increasing by €35. A service provided by the public sector is €20 which will now be contracted out and will now cost me and you €55. That's a mega increase % wise, although broken down over the 10 years it will be valid it's not major.

Also we will be getting a new credit card style licence so maybe it's worth the increase. My point is that once all these services that people are screaming to be contracted out occurs, then the price we pay will go through the roof by the end user.

For example, what if tomorrow councils decided to charge the full cost of a planning application to the public? Your typical domestic application which costs joe soap €34 will jump to €500 over night. Some services have to be subsidised and thus make a loss to be deemed a public service.

You didn't forget the hidden costs for the moment, you just completely ignored them. You compared the costs even though one cost is 'subsidised' by taxation whereas the other is not. Unless you include the hidden costs which are only applicable to one side of the equation, then your comparison is void.

sarumite

woodoo wrote: »

I think it should be the future. A much better work life balance. The elites have us all working too much.

35hrs is 9 to 5 with an hour for lunch.

I think we should work 2 days and have a 5 day weekend. However reality is different. 35 hour weeks is comparably short. If in the future, 35 hour weeks becomes standard, come back to me. Until then blaming elites is just populist nonsense.

Gumbo

sarumite wrote: »

You didn't forget the hidden costs for the moment, you just completely ignored them. You compared the costs even though one cost is 'subsidised' by taxation whereas the other is not. Unless you include the hidden costs which are only applicable to one side of the equation, then your comparison is void.

You explain it then.

Cost of licence to you and me from council at present = €20.
Cost of licence from contracted company from 19th = €55.

There you, there's the contracting it out in reality.

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

You explain it then.

Cost of licence to you and me from council at present = €20.
Cost of licence from contracted company from 19th = €55.

There you, there's the contracting it out in reality.

So are you saying the government spend €0 when giving driving licences?

opti0nal

kceire wrote: »

You explain it then.

Cost of licence to you and me from council at present = €20.
Cost of licence from contracted company from 19th = €55.

There you, there's the contracting it out in reality.

And, the income goes to a foreign company and does not benefit the local economy.

woggas1972

Why should PS workers open from 8.30am to 8.30pm, as some have suggested. Is that all PS workers or just some?
If you want to go to the bank, it's opening hours aren't 8.30am to 8.30pm, same goes for doctors, lawyers etc.,

opti0nal

sarumite wrote: »

So are you saying the government spend €0 when giving driving licences?

Where's the benefit to the public as a result of this out-sourcing?

sarumite

opti0nal wrote: »

Where's the benefit to the public as a result of this out-sourcing?

Is your problem that they out-sourced, or that they out-sourced to a foreign company?

woodoo

sarumite wrote: »

I think we should work 2 days and have a 5 day weekend. However reality is different. 35 hour weeks is comparably short. If in the future, 35 hour weeks becomes standard, come back to me. Until then blaming elites is just populist nonsense.

I do 9 to 5 and i think it is plenty. It is a well know working week so famous Dolly Parton sang about it . I wouldn't be in agreement to any changes to the working week.

Gumbo

sarumite wrote: »

Is your problem that they out-sourced, or that they out-sourced to a foreign company?

My problem would be people screaming for out sourcing then realising the cost of the service will then sky rocket as this company wants to profit from it as opposed to it being heavily subsidised.

sarumite

woodoo wrote: »

I do 9 to 5 and i think it is plenty. It is a well know working week so famous Dolly Parton sang about it . I wouldn't be in agreement to any changes to the working week.

She sang about it over 30 years ago . It was more relevant back then. I don't blame you though not being in agreement. Nobody wants to work longer hours, whether longer hours a justifiable or not.

Vizzy

Pat Kenny is going to give us the benefit of his unbiased view in a few minutes

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

My problem would be people screaming for out sourcing then realising the cost of the service will then sky rocket as this company wants to profit from it as opposed to it being heavily subsidised.

How much does the government spend per licence? What is the difference in price between that and now?

opti0nal

sarumite wrote: »

Is your problem that they out-sourced, or that they out-sourced to a foreign company?

That the out-sourcing resulted in a higher cost to the consumer and the money spent does not benefit the local economy.

Is your problem that the work was being done by public service workers?

sarumite

opti0nal wrote: »

That the out-sourcing resulted in a higher cost to the consumer and the money spent does not benefit the local economy.

I have yet to see the figures on that? How much does the government spend in taxation on driving licences?

Is your problem that the work was being done by public service workers?

I am not the one complaining.

opti0nal

sarumite wrote: »

I have yet to see the figures on that? How much does the government spend in taxation on driving licences?

It's up to those advocating out-sourcing to demonstrate the benefits.

in this case, there is no apparent benefit to the consumer or the taxpayer.

hmmm

I'm sick of these charades. It will be the same old routine

1. Government announces all these major changes that will revolutionise "the delivery of public services"
2. Government announces that none of this will happen without union agreement
3. The newspapers go wild celebrating that the PS will finally be brought into the 21st century
4. The union leaders adopt their grim-faced look and, sensing the public mood, agree that things will be tough for their members
5. Unions and government meet for endless meetings
6. A "breakdown" of talks is announced because of the terrible things the government is asking for
7. Last minute negotiations conclude at 2am with an agreement
8. The government announces that major changes have been agreed.
9. Weeks later the public finds out it was all a con, no major changes have been agreed and what changes were announced are watered down when actually implemented.

The government said they were going to tackle the allowances issue with great fanfare and delivered very little. Now they're parading around telling us how they're going to address the issues in the PS. I hold out slim hope - to me it sounds more like an exercise by the PS to get another long term pay deal set in stone before the IMF/Next government have a chance to implement real change.

Farmer Pudsey

woggas1972 wrote: »

Why should PS workers open from 8.30am to 8.30pm, as some have suggested. Is that all PS workers or just some?
If you want to go to the bank, it's opening hours aren't 8.30am to 8.30pm, same goes for doctors, lawyers etc.,

You may be refering to where I posted about expensive medical test equipment. It happens accross the private sector on production assembly lines where expnsive equipment is involved. Also with machinery where one operator will replace another. Lunch breaks are staggered ( no all heading off for a chat or a game of cards). I do not think anybody esles posted about these hours in relation of general day to day PS services.

sarumite

opti0nal wrote: »

It's up to those advocating out-sourcing to demonstrate the benefits.

in this case, there is no apparent benefit to the consumer or the taxpayer.

I think its up to both to demonstrate benefits of both positions and then allow the individual to make an informed opinion on both. As I haven't directly advocated outsourcing, I will leave that up to someone else.


You haven't shown that there is no benefit. I still don't know what the cost per licence is when processed by the government since a chunk of the cost is absorbed through general taxation that doesn't occur through outsourcing.