Hares

dodderangler

Lads is there anyone about Dublin area coming across hares and if so could I get 1 or two off you
My Harris hawk chased a hare today and and think seen as she has shown interest in one that I'd give her a dead one to pull on a length of line and let her hit it so she gets the taste
Cery few hares on my permission so I'd like to get her one to try and take on as her size she well able for them for next time if she does see one
Atb

Ape Owners

chasing one and catching one are 2 different things,especially with a juvenile harris.hares can do serious damage to the best of birds,if i was you i would wait til she had a couple of dozen kills of rabbit first to ensure good footing and head binds.just if she did grab one and gets hard time from it well the experience would put her off them.thats just my opinion anyway and theres not many hares around this area but heard theres a few up around casement aerodrome.

thelurcher

Out of curiosity is that even legal? I'd have thought that you'd have to get a license to take a hare with a hawk just as you have to with a dog?

Also if they're scarce on your permission wouldn't it be more sporting to let them alone?

dodderangler

thelurcher wrote: »

Out of curiosity is that even legal? I'd have thought that you'd have to get a license to take a hare with a hawk just as you have to with a dog?

Also if they're scarce on your permission wouldn't it be more sporting to let them alone?

Yes it's legal
I just want to get a dead one for her because if she goes after another one and binds onto it wrong she could end up gettin hurt so main purpose of a dead one is to teach her to get head binds and also hare is very healthy for a young Harris
And yes your right about leaving them alone but think of this
I don't walk with my hawk on the fist
She flies over my head and follows me And I can't exactly tell her to not chase a hare or anything else for that reason so if she sees one she will chase it and I'd rather her kill it with good head bind than mess up the bind and be injured or killed herself
Atb

Username Exists.

Ya may get the e-collar for her so

pat_cork

thelurcher wrote: »

Out of curiosity is that even legal? I'd have thought that you'd have to get a license to take a hare with a hawk just as you have to with a dog?

Also if they're scarce on your permission wouldn't it be more sporting to let them alone?

I thought you could take hares with a dog from 26th of September to the 28th of February or is one only allowed to shoot them?

thelurcher

dodderangler wrote: »

Yes it's legal
I just want to get a dead one for her because if she goes after another one and binds onto it wrong she could end up gettin hurt so main purpose of a dead one is to teach her to get head binds and also hare is very healthy for a young Harris
And yes your right about leaving them alone but think of this
I don't walk with my hawk on the fist
She flies over my head and follows me And I can't exactly tell her to not chase a hare or anything else for that reason so if she sees one she will chase it and I'd rather her kill it with good head bind than mess up the bind and be injured or killed herself
Atb

That's grand dodderangler - the wording on your first post left me with a different impression.
I used to do a bit with hawks - red tails and harris as far as I can remember - when I had ferrets. Was never very interested in them to be honest. That was 15 years ago at least but always thought the lads said you couldn't take a hare.

pat_cork - that's the season for hares alright but you still need a license to run them.

thelurcher

dodderangler - sorry now but this is annoying me - do you apply for a license to hunt hares with the hawks?
Hares are protected and I thought the only way to take one according to the legislation I can find is by -
'Shooting with firearms; coursing at regulated coursing matches; hunting with packs of beagles and harriers'
And then under license?

dicky82

dodderangler wrote: »

Yes it's legal
I just want to get a dead one for her because if she goes after another one and binds onto it wrong she could end up gettin hurt so main purpose of a dead one is to teach her to get head binds and also hare is very healthy for a young Harris
And yes your right about leaving them alone but think of this
I don't walk with my hawk on the fist
She flies over my head and follows me And I can't exactly tell her to not chase a hare or anything else for that reason so if she sees one she will chase it and I'd rather her kill it with good head bind than mess up the bind and be injured or killed herself
Atb

this is annoying me. surely you should be a bit more responsible when it comes to what your hawk is likely to hunt. what happens it she decides to have a pop at a small lamb. if i take a shot at something i have to be sure of what i'm shooting at.if i'm working my dogs i have to keep them under control. i have seen first hand what irresponsible falconers can cause and they always use the same lame excuse of 'well i can't tell the bird not to chase it'

howya mike

Took the words out of my mouth. I remember a similar post before about a pheasant being taken out of season and the lame excuse about the bird. Can someone clarify if it's even legal for a hawk to take what it likes out of season or without a licence or if the handler is held liable,

jellybaby21

I don't really want to get into this but Dicky can you tell me something.If you have a bird following on, waiting on or on the soar and something is flushed could you stop a bird from chasing it?Now everyone has to be responsible when it comes to hunting and sometimes we have to pick where we hunt very carefully.A bird hunting from the fist is a different story and we pick our slips.

jellybaby21

howya mike wrote: »

Took the words out of my mouth. I remember a similar post before about a pheasant being taken out of season and the lame excuse about the bird. Can someone clarify if it's even legal for a hawk to take what it likes out of season or without a licence or if the handler is held liable,

As far as I know if a hawk takes out or season game, the game can not be removed from the field.The hawk can feed from its kill but the game can not be taken home.Now if anyone can correct me on this they are more than welcome.

Birdnuts

jellybaby21 wrote: »

As far as I know if a hawk takes out or season game, the game can not be removed from the field.The hawk can feed from its kill but the game can not be taken home.Now if anyone can correct me on this they are more than welcome.

I happened to be in court one day with a nephew of mine on another matter when a case popped up involving 2 chaps who were accused of setting lurchers on hares out of season. I seem to remember the judge saying that "intent" was the main factor to be deceided. The defendants argued that unlike hunting with a rifle/shotgun, hunting with hounds(and presumebly this would apply to falconry too!!) invariably involves situations where out of season quarry could be flushed and possibly harmed/killed unintentionally. The judge said she accepted that fact but other evidence before the court strongly suggested that the lurchers where deliberatly set on hares. A conviction was recorded.

The reason I mention the above is that I would assume the sport of falconry would have the same type of laws applied to it ie. convictions are based on evidence of intentional flouting of game laws.

jellybaby21

Birdnuts wrote: »

I happened to be in court one day with a nephew of mine on another matter when a case popped up involving 2 chaps who were accused of setting lurchers on hares out of season. I seem to remember the judge saying that "intent" was the main factor to be deceided. The defendants argued that unlike hunting with a rifle/shotgun, hunting with hounds(and presumebly this would apply to falconry too!!) invariably involves situations where out of season quarry could be flushed and possibly harmed/killed. The judge said she accepted that fact but other evidence before the court strongly suggested that the lurchers where deliberatly set on hares. A conviction was recorded.

The reason I mention the above is that I would assume the sport of falconry would have the same type of laws applied to it ie. convictions are based on evidence of intentional flouting of game laws.

Yes I should have made it a bit more clear.Its only when I look back at my post I can see its not very clear.For example if I was found to be flying a goshawk from the fist a game birds out of season I would be in trouble.Now if I was flying a harris hawk following on and she took a pheasant out of season when we where out after rabbits that would be an accident.There is not much I could do about the second example I have just given you as the bird would not be on my fist and if a pheasant flushed I couldn't stop her.

dodderangler

howya mike wrote: »

Took the words out of my mouth. I remember a similar post before about a pheasant being taken out of season and the lame excuse about the bird. Can someone clarify if it's even legal for a hawk to take what it likes out of season or without a licence or if the handler is held liable,

Huge difference when it comes to hunting with a Harris hawk and other bops. other bops are flown from the fist whereas Harris hawks are not and are trained to follow their falconer.
A Harris hawk will follow its falconer and will take on anything flushed or moving and unfortunately out of season quarry are caught
The joy of using a Harris hawk is to let it off to follow on and watch her soar about but she will constantly watch her falconer aswell and the term of a falconer saying i can't stop a hawk chasin something is not an excuse
I don't know any falconer that can train his bird to not chase it's prey. It's in their blood
Afaik if a falconers bird takes out of season quarry I cannot take that quarry home the hawk is allowed to feed and I have to leave the remains

howya mike

That's fair enough but I guess the main problem I'm having with some of the replies is the "As Far As I Know", again you just answered AFAIK the bird can eat game it catches out of season. I've nothing against falconvery in fact I'd love to try it but when I head out with the gun I need to KNOW the laws as the **** will hit the fan if I'm caught doing something wrong and and I cannot use the excuse 'AFAIK'.

jellybaby21

howya mike wrote: »

That's fair enough but I guess the main problem I'm having with some of the replies is the "As Far As I Know", again you just answered AFAIK the bird can eat game it catches out of season. I've nothing against falconvery in fact I'd love to try it but when I head out with the gun I need to KNOW the laws as the **** will hit the fan if I'm caught doing something wrong and and I cannot use the excuse 'AFAIK'.

Well mick I said as far as I know because its what I have been told and I cant seem to get any writen law on it.Its a bit like the law on how far from the road can I shoot?

howya mike

Grand I'll just stick to playing it safe and let common sense rule and find out the rights and wrongs first before I go shooting. Its none of my business what anyone else does just wouldn't think you'd stand much of a chance against a judge saying well I thought I could do this. Does a park ranger not issue a licence for the ownership of a hawk/falcon? If they do then surely they can tell you or should tell you these things before they issue it?

dicky82

there is a falconer near us who's harris hawk has taken two of a neighbor's hens injured another's cat. he hunts the ground out the back of us for rabbits but maintains that the bird can't be stopped when it locks onto it's 'prey'. the field he hunts has lots of hen pheasants on clutches in the spring so what happens if these are flushed.

anyway the op is asking about hares, why would you hunt the ground where hares are so scarce, and no-one has clarified what would happen if your hawk hits a lamb or something like that?

jellybaby21

Now as far a hawk talking chickens and cats you have to avoid these places,it common sense. Dicky I'll ask you this would you run a dog on the land where them pheasants have clutches? I ask you this because I wouldn't fly my bird near that area (she would be down to moult anyway) and it sounds like you wouldn't run your dog there, but that doesn't mean the next lad wouldn't run his dog on the ground with the hens pheasants and clutches on it.

My point been its down to the individual to use some common sense and avoid the area. As for a hawk hitting a lamb its no different than you shooting one. You would have to pay for it if it ever happened but again you have to try avoid these things with certain birds, and don't try tell me that things don't get shot by accident because they do. Again accidents happen.

howya mike

I just won't shoot anywhere near 200 yards near a road so I'm well covered. others may be different. I'm under no illusions that there are certain laws that are open for interpretation and if someone wants to have their day in court to fight them then the best of luck to them but I don't want that hassle so find its easier to play it safe.

Does an NPWS ranger issue a licence to you too own a hunting bird and would he not be able to answer issues that you say you don't know. I'm not havIn a go just asking a question that might help you out.

jellybaby21

Yes a ranger will call to you to inspect your setup for the bird and your licence will be issued after his inspection on his say so. Now as i'm getting a new bird added to my licence this year he should be calling to me again. I'm glad this subject has come up as it will be fresh in my mind and I will have a chat with him about it.

howya mike

Sound. If you want to know more about it there must be thousands of posts about it here so read away. Anyway I'm finished here so best of luck with the hunting JB and I look forward to seeing more pics of the bird in action.

jellybaby21

Thats how you deal with it but we know its a grey area just like the taking of game out of season with a hawk and thats the only reason I brought it up.I'll put up some more pics soon.Best of luck for the rest of the season.

gyr

So what is the law on shooting near a road and not the common sense law

howya mike

Well Gyr my understanding was its 50 meters from the road but others think it's 100. I honestly dont know so my attitude is to go way beyond both so theres no confusion but that's just me.

The main difference is though I cannot get into any bother as I am doing nothing wrong but if you were asked by somebody why your bird has killed a game bird out of season the "As far as I know" excuse is not good enough and certainly won't work in front of a judge. I'm sure it is allowed but instead of going off subject maybe you can answer.

dodderangler

dicky82 wrote: »

there is a falconer near us who's harris hawk has taken two of a neighbor's hens injured another's cat. he hunts the ground out the back of us for rabbits but maintains that the bird can't be stopped when it locks onto it's 'prey'. the field he hunts has lots of hen pheasants on clutches in the spring so what happens if these are flushed.

anyway the op is asking about hares, why would you hunt the ground where hares are so scarce, and no-one has clarified what would happen if your hawk hits a lamb or something like that?

I asked for a hare because if she locks onto a hare and doesn't hit it right she could end up being hurt so the purpose of the dead hare is to teach her to target the head

garv123

Theres nothing about shooting from a road in the hunting bit of it..

But there is a "launching a projectile" bit somewhere in the road acts and thats 60ft or 20 yards ish from the centre of the road.

thelurcher

So strictly speaking it's NOT legal to take a hare with a hawk - you cannot get a license to hunt hare with hawks.
You will however 'get away with it' due to the style of hunting you're doing - as there was no intent?
That is until your local ranger sees that there's a fella that keeps harris hawks in Tallaght that's looking for a hare

dodderangler wrote: »

so she gets the taste

I do a bit of beagling - was out yesterday - all registered and licensed. I don't know anyone that would meet in an area where the hares were under pressure - you just wouldn't do it.
If there's a risk - which you acknowledge there is - of taking a hare then maybe you would be better off trying other permission as has already been suggested?

Cass

All argumentative posts, and responses have been removed.

How this turned from a question on hawking into a full on row is beyond me.

There is a report post button for a reason. If you disagree with something then use it and let the mods deal with it. Responding yourself only serves to get you infracted.

Get back on topic. If you cannot, refrain from posting. Any more posts like the ones removed will result in further infractions, and permanent closure of the thread.

Cass

jellybaby21 wrote: »

Well mick I said as far as I know because its what I have been told and I cant seem to get any writen law on it.Its a bit like the law on how far from the road can I shoot?

gyr wrote: »

So what is the law on shooting near a road and not the common sense law

The Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland) Act 1851 and it says within 60 feet of a public road. So that's 18 metres, 20 yards, or 60 feet.

This has never been updated as far as i or anyone else can find.

lb1981

The Irish hare is special – it is a subspecies of the Mountain Hare. This subspecies is only found in Ireland. The Irish hare is also possibly our longest established native mammal – it was even here during the Ice Age.....Hence any members of our club do not shoot them as we try to preserve them...gun clubs are not all about hunting it s also about game preservation .Why anybody would want to train a hawk to take one is beyond me when there is land plenty full of rabbits around Ireland.

The Irish hare is a protected species but is classified as a game species and may therefore be hunted under license during the open season (last week in September to the end of February). You must have a license from the National Parks and Wildlife Service to hunt a hare.

terminator2

not according to some folk on this thread who are going to hunt them anyway , leverets and all , and then claim its not the hawks fault

jellybaby21

Rite lads I'll leave it with you's as I don't want to get a ban but go ring your wild life ranger and ask him what a falconry licence covers you to do.We could keep going around in circles on this one and get nowhere.For example Ib1981,you say why would anyone want to train a hawk to take a hare.I could ask you why would anyone want to shoot one or hunt one with a pack of hounds?Its sport and different people like different sports.By the way I never trained my hawk to chase hares but she chased one last year.She didn't catch it and I was happy enough as it was a great flight and the hare lived.Its not all about the kill either lads.

terminator2

my gun club dont allow the shooting of hares , cant see why anyone would want to kill a species that is under so much pressure now , train your harris to take fox cubs

jellybaby21

As I said I didnt train her to hunt them and she has only ever chased one (maybe you are talking to the OP) and as I said just because you don't shoot them that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the next lad shooting one.Its their choice and best of luck to them.I don't shoot them myself either.

lb1981

jellybaby21 wrote: »

Rite lads I'll leave it with you's as I don't want to get a ban but go ring your wild life ranger and ask him what a falconry licence covers you to do.We could keep going around in circles on this one and get nowhere.For example Ib1981,you say why would anyone want to train a hawk to take a hare.I could ask you why would anyone want to shoot one or hunt one with a pack of hounds?Its sport and different people like different sports.By the way I never trained my hawk to chase hares but she chased one last year.She didn't catch it and I was happy enough as it was a great flight and the hare lived.Its not all about the kill either lads.

I dont agree with shooting them or coursing them, we run any lads we see on our club lads with greyhounds, this is not a morality issue about the killing of an animal id be a hypocryte to start banging that drum , its about preserving a native animal that has so much history in this country.
The original post is looking for a hare to train a Harris Hawk so im dead against that and as far as im concerned thats basically blooding it to do a job on hares.

jellybaby21

It makes no difference if you agree with it or not,they have a season and can be hunted.Now I've had my say so good luck.

gyr

after reading some post's on here i rang not 1 but 2 ranger's and asked the same question

1 told me that a falconry licence does cover a falconer if his/her hawk/falcon catches a bird/animal out of season the words i was told were (it's my understanding that a falconer can not tell the hawk/falcon not to catch that bird/animal for example all birds are protected in ireland and if the falconer's hawk/falcon catches a blackbird the falconer's licence will cover them for that) words of the ranger

2 told me that the falconer can end out in court (but) the court would however have to be able to prove that the falconer did go out with intent to hunt that bird/animal out of season

two different answer's?

dicky82

@ jellybaby. you're right in your assumption in that i would not work the dog on that ground when spring/summer comes. you're posts and pictures of your hawk have been informative and enjoyable and i would reckon that you are responsible when it comes to hunting your bird. my main gripe is with the op who mentions that there are very few hares on their permission but wants to make sure that the bird can nail one properly if it comes across one again (for the sake of the bird).
it's my opinion that if the op is worried about the health of his bird that he should try and deter the bird from hares, in the same way we try and deter our dogs from worrying sheep or other stock.
i fully understand that under the game season law he has every right to hunt them but i find it a bit sour that he is trying to train his bird to hit them properly when he himself mentions how scarce they are.

jellybaby21

The OP doesn't need a hare to make sure his bird takes one properly.The bird needs to take plenty of rabbit and she will soon learn to bind to the head of the rabbit.So if she does chase a hare in the future she will know her job.So this was a pointless thread that got lads backs up a bit.

dodderangler

So would you rather that the bird get injured or worse be killed than take on its quarry safely?
That was my fault for not explaining that hares on this land that I have are scarce because they were never on this land to begin with
I've hunted it since I was a kid and only ever came across a handful
But I asked for a carcass in case I come across one again
It's just annoyed me that so many of you were tellin me not to hunt the land if they are scarce but maybe some people don't have as much land to hunt as others?
Some people don't agree with killing hares and that's fair enough they do make a terrible sound when shot or caught by hawk/dog but I would rather of she took one on out of the off chance one popped up that she knew how to handle it
If she got injured it could put her off chasing not just hare but rabbits also

natdog

dodderangler wrote: »

So would you rather that the bird get injured or worse be killed than take on its quarry safely?
That was my fault for not explaining that hares on this land that I have are scarce because they were never on this land to begin with
I've hunted it since I was a kid and only ever came across a handful
But I asked for a carcass in case I come across one again
It's just annoyed me that so many of you were tellin me not to hunt the land if they are scarce but maybe some people don't have as much land to hunt as others?
Some people don't agree with killing hares and that's fair enough they do make a terrible sound when shot or caught by hawk/dog but I would rather of she took one on out of the off chance one popped up that she knew how to handle it
If she got injured it could put her off chasing not just hare but rabbits also

How would it help your bird to handle a hare if she is only hitting a dead one by this I mean if she hits its arse the hare is already dead so she thinks job done and to her this is the way to hit them. Maybe I'm missing something?

dodderangler

Not entirely
if she should grab it by the arse as someone pulls it then either myself that's pullin it or someone else will continue to pull at it till she gets better footing to grab the head because if she grabs a hare by the arse the hare will continue to try run and will kick her aswell so by pullin a dead one she will will learn after a few hits that the hare won't stop until she grabs it by the head and she will then be rewarded for it

gyr

lads in all fairness a bird is not like a dog you can not train a bird to sit and stay or stop on command a bird is trained on fur and feather if a bird is trained/catching rabbits all its life and has never seen a hare it will still chase a hare if it see's one cause of the fur/food part of things and i don't know why in the op post he was looking for a hare to train the bird because makes no difference hare/rabbit/fur its a good head bind he is looking for so the more rabbits the bird catches the better the bird will get at head binding and the better the bird is at that the less of a chance it has of getting hurt if it does catch a hare if the bird if following on and starts chasing it cant be stopped and that's not a lame excuse like some people think

dodderangler

Here's a video of a male Harris that catches a hare but watch what happens when it's grabs the hare and where it's feet grab the hare and therefore loses it
But a situation like this could put a Harris off hunting hare and rabbits

http://youtu.be/JoxCaaoV1fw

gyr

dodderangler wrote: »

Not entirely
if she should grab it by the arse as someone pulls it then either myself that's pullin it or someone else will continue to pull at it till she gets better footing to grab the head because if she grabs a hare by the arse the hare will continue to try run and will kick her aswell so by pullin a dead one she will will learn after a few hits that the hare won't stop until she grabs it by the head and she will then be rewarded for it

every time the bird catches a rabbit feed the bird up of the head/brain open the skull up let her feed that will make her go for the head/food

terminator2

if you want a hare so badly why not go out and shoot it yourself

natdog

gyr wrote: »

i don't know why in the op post he was looking for a hare to train the bird because makes no difference hare/rabbit/fur its a good head bind he is looking for so the more rabbits the bird catches the better the bird will get at head binding and the better the bird is at that the less of a chance it has of getting hurt if it does catch a hare.

Dodderangler can you answer this?

thelurcher

gyr wrote: »

after reading some post's on here i rang not 1 but 2 ranger's and asked the same question

1 told me that a falconry licence does cover a falconer if his/her hawk/falcon catches a bird/animal out of season the words i was told were (it's my understanding that a falconer can not tell the hawk/falcon not to catch that bird/animal for example all birds are protected in ireland and if the falconer's hawk/falcon catches a blackbird the falconer's licence will cover them for that) words of the ranger

2 told me that the falconer can end out in court (but) the court would however have to be able to prove that the falconer did go out with intent to hunt that bird/animal out of season

two different answer's?

That would confirm my earlier post - the falconry license is not a license to hunt hares.
You can not use it to justify deliberately going out in pursuit of a hare at any timer of year - so you should not be looking for a dead hare to give it a taste for example.
I don't know how ye've been getting away with it so far
If we entered a terrier in pursuit of a fox but it settled on a badger - we'd still be done for badger digging - whether there was intent or not.
We have to be extra careful and err on the side of caution. It's not a big deal - the law is the law. It's disappointing that obviously some other field sports don't have the same cop-on.

jellybaby21

thelurcher wrote: »

That would confirm my earlier post - the falconry license is not a license to hunt hares.
You can not use it to justify deliberately going out in pursuit of a hare at any timer of year - so you should not be looking for a dead hare to give it a taste for example.
I don't know how ye've been getting away with it so far
If we entered a terrier in pursuit of a fox but it settled on a badger - we'd still be done for badger digging - whether there was intent or not.
We have to be extra careful and err on the side of caution. It's not a big deal - the law is the law. It's disappointing that obviously some other field sports don't have the same cop-on.

I think you should read the post again.

Does a hare not have a hunting season?