Ferroli SYS 10-23 problem

jimf

gifted wrote: »

Where can I get popcorn around here?..some great entertainment here

yes i agree to an extent

but so many threads on here recently have turned into pissin competitions posters come on boards to seek advice if they dont like the advice they receive they make any excuse under the sun not to take it

to me it looks as if they want permission from well qualified people to do it their way wrong or right why bother to ask at all

mike literis

would it not be an idea to ban all questions by the public on gas related topics , because every thread on the subject turns into a farce , and it's the same bunch of rgi's that come on telling the same story's and scare mongering . everyone knows the dangers and the possible outcomes of different scenarios and at this stage everyone can guess the responses from each individual rgi on this site and when they act as a group . it's getting boring at this stage .

Billy Bunting

mike literis wrote: »

would it not be an idea to ban all questions by the public on gas related topics , because every thread on the subject turns into a farce , and it's the same bunch of rgi's that come on telling the same story's and scare mongering . everyone knows the dangers and the possible outcomes of different scenarios and at this stage everyone can guess the responses from each individual rgi on this site and when they act as a group . it's getting boring at this stage .

Boring!!!! :rolleyes:

mike literis

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Boring!!!! :rolleyes:

look who it is , and on que . wonder who will post next :-)

Robbie.G

Did you guess right lol

mike literis

Robbie.G wrote: »

Did you guess right lol

yes I predicted it would be an rgi , I'm good arnt I

shane0007

mike literis wrote: »

would it not be an idea to ban all questions by the public on gas related topics , because every thread on the subject turns into a farce , and it's the same bunch of rgi's that come on telling the same story's and scare mongering . everyone knows the dangers and the possible outcomes of different scenarios and at this stage everyone can guess the responses from each individual rgi on this site and when they act as a group . it's getting boring at this stage .

Perhaps the hundreds of members that have been helped FOC with minor problems that were external of the boiler or the ones that were a bit more educated when calling in an RGI might disagree with you.
If you are that bored with it, you do not have to look!
We tell the same stories because we have seen first hand the work that muppets have done. We have seen first hand the dangers they have put people in. We have seen the amount they have ripped off people. I could go on but I really do not wish to bore you nor visualise you peeping through your curtains to see what is happening in the gas threads on Boards!

I personally would be at a great loss from learning from some of the best people in the business if they were to stop contributing here, so please people, do not stop and my mind is wide open. Even the debates that go amiss have wealth within them....

DGOBS

Ok lads, calm down.......FFS

It's great that using vinegar has unblocked your heatexchanger, even more so on a Ferroli as parts are mad money.

The only issue you may find is, only a single passageway has opened and not them all, and success maybe short lived, I hope to be proved wrong. I usually find when re-conditioned exchangers, the solution (vinegar or whatever descaler you use) will not fill all the internal structure, even with a lot of sloshing and tilting, because of the blockages, and after a lot (and I mean a lot) of experimentation and cutting them open afterwards I still find lots of calcium deposits.

The problem is, that when it is put back in use, there isn't the correct flow of water so you still get a large temperature differential across the exchanger, which leads to rapid calcification once again.

It's great it worked for you, and with your RGI mate beside you, it's certainly worth a go (even more than once) but I hope you can understand why we couldn't do this for customers in general, as the work we carried out could not be stood over, and with mutilpe visits may only end up in the same situation they started in, just at a greater cost.

As one of the lads here suggested, your system may now benefit from a good chemical treatment, a good descaler and inhibitor, to try and maintain the good result you have achieved.

As for the scare-mongering, we have all seen the DIY etc that has not worked out well for any concerned, so unfortunately those of us in the industry tend to get a bit hardfaced about safety. It's not intending as anything but to make people fully aware of what can go wrong, and the guys would be amiss not to do so.

One last work of advice, Shane, think you need some valium mate, your missus is going to find you slumped over your keyboard some night after a heart attack!! ;-)

shane0007

DGOBS wrote: »

One last work of advice, Shane, think you need some valium mate, your missus is going to find you slumped over your keyboard some night after a heart attack!! ;-)

Lol, I am permanently on prescription Valium anyhow. Would you believe I am actually levitating above my iPad as I write this!!!

jsd1004

shane0007 wrote: »

Lol, I am permanently on prescription Valium anyhow. Would you believe I am actually levitating above my iPad as I write this!!!

40 replies later. I never thought it would be such an interesting topic. Anyway thanks guys..Boiler is still working fine but i guess i need a powerflush and there is also a slight leak from one of the water valves so that will need to be replaced. Would anyone like to quote me or give me an idea of cost. (My RGI does not do powerflushing) I am in the Limerick area.

Dtp79

jsd1004 wrote: »

40 replies later. I never thought it would be such an interesting topic. Anyway thanks guys..Boiler is still working fine but i guess i need a powerflush and there is also a slight leak from one of the water valves so that will need to be replaced. Would anyone like to quote me or give me an idea of cost. (My RGI does not do powerflushing) I am in the Limerick area.

You'd be talking at least 400 euro. Depends on the size of your system. How many rads?

jsd1004

Dtp79 wrote: »

You'd be talking at least 400 euro. Depends on the size of your system. How many rads?

3bed so 7 i guess. Its rented so would have to check.

sullzz

jsd1004 wrote: »

(My RGI does not do powerflushing)

So you don't do power flushing

I'd say your looking at about the 500 euro mark.

channelsurfer2

interesting dicussion. Just come across the same problem myself so trying to decide whether its worth bothering replacing the heat exchanger , try and clean the heat exchange(due to lack of funds) or just saving for an new boiler...

Dtp79

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

interesting dicussion. Just come across the same problem myself so trying to decide whether its worth bothering replacing the heat exchanger , try and clean the heat exchange(due to lack of funds) or just saving for an new boiler...

How old is your current boiler?

channelsurfer2

3 years 9 months.

shane0007

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

3 years 9 months.

It's not that old. I would powerflush first as if you replace the boiler you will have to powerflush anyhow. At least this way, there will be a reasonable chance the powerflush will clear the heat exchanger, well depending the Powerflushing machine used.

channelsurfer2

shane0007 wrote: »

It's not that old. I would powerflush first as if you replace the boiler you will have to powerflush anyhow. At least this way, there will be a reasonable chance the powerflush will clear the heat exchanger, well depending the Powerflushing machine used.

Ah ok the system was powerflushed 26 months ago and we got a water softener in then so didn't consider that as an option. Boiler had been given trouble since day 1 really so this is d last straw.

shane0007

So what is wrong with the boiler? Is the heat exchanger blocked? Is it kettling?
If it is, then why is it? Is there an automatic filling valve hiding a leak or a semi-sealed system hiding a leak? Is it fed from the cwst & non-return failed.
Something has to be amiss to affect the heat exchanger so this must be investigated & resolved.

channelsurfer2

shane0007 wrote: »

So what is wrong with the boiler? Is the heat exchanger blocked? Is it kettling?
If it is, then why is it? Is there an automatic filling valve hiding a leak or a semi-sealed system hiding a leak? Is it fed from the cwst & non-return failed.
Something has to be amiss to affect the heat exchanger so this must be investigated & resolved.

Plumber said that was the cause error code d2 is coming up. He can't hear kettling whatever that is.he says he can try cleaning ut wit special dw40?but its an aluminium shell

shane0007

Special WD40 to clean a blocked heat exchanger! That's a new one...
Is he an RGI?
What is the make & model of the boiler?

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

Special WD40 to clean a blocked heat exchanger! That's a new one...
Is he an RGI?
What is the make & model of the boiler?

I'd say he's on about ds40!!

shane0007

Dtp79 wrote: »

I'd say he's on about ds40!!

Of course he is. Brain fried today! Even had to be on a white horse today to deal with a client.

channelsurfer2

yes apologies its ds40 not wd40!!! ferroli optimax 25s is the make and model..plumber is rgii and i have verified he is on the rgii website...

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

Of course he is. Brain fried today! Even had to be on a white horse today to deal with a client.

White horse?

shane0007

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

Plumber said that was the cause error code d2 is coming up. He can't hear kettling whatever that is.he says he can try cleaning ut wit special dw40?but its an aluminium shell

Are you sure the code is not 02 rather than D2?
I would also aire on the side of caution using DS40 on an aluminium heat exchanger, however, I think there could be a misdiagnosis here.

shane0007

Dtp79 wrote: »

White horse?

It's what is expected now from RGI's. Arriving on a big white horse to solve issues. Think it could even become part of the 5 year re-assessment.

Irish Steve

Well, I am going to make some waves.

Shane, if you're reading this, and really are on Valium, you're excused, and should jump now to the text below that's Magenta, I don't want to be held responsible for raising your blood pressure any higher.

The comments that follow are NOT in any way aimed at any of the engineers that are members of boards.ie and contribute in these forums

Commercial gas work is still not as regulated as domestic, probably because some of the equipment is somewhat specialist, and manufacturers instructions are the best guide to making sure they work.

For all sorts of reasons, I got involved with a Chinese restaurant a while back when it was changing hands.

In the kitchen, there is a very large Chinese Wok cooker, with somwhere around 10 burners of varying sizes on it. It is not in the first flush of youth, and has been well worked over the time it's been there,

I got landed with deep cleaning it, and this is a cooker that has a water bath around all the burners, which prevents overheating, and is also used as a fundamental part of the cooking process, water from the bath is added to things being cooked, and also used to rinse out woks between use. Deep cleaning it was a 2 day job, and required a massive strip down to be acceptable

Most of the cooker had to be stripped, including burners, pilot fittings, the flame faiilure sensors, some of the gas valves due to wear, and the whole of the water deck in order to get the build up of significant lime scale out of the hidden areas, as they were a health risk. Quite a few bits spent a long time in a chemical bath to get the grease, oil, carbon and other residue off them. Some, at 10Ft long, were too big and heavy to go into the chemical bath, so they had to be cleaned the hard way.

Some of the issues found on the gas side were interesting to say the least.

Pilots re connected to a ball valve, with no flame failure device associated with the supply.

Pilot feed pipes cut off and folded over to close them.

Flame failure devices completely removed from the supply taps, so that they would light regardless of the status of the flame failure system

Damaged and badly blocked burners that flared in all directions, mixer tubes wrapped in silver foil to change the performance of the burner, and a number of other issues related to the supply connection.

At a later stage, I had to go into the boiler house, there are 2 boilers out there, one for the heating, and one for the hot water. Both were in dire condition, with again, a number of faults that were in urgent need of repair.

The icing on the cake was when I looked at the gas lock out valve, a device not normally found in domestic situations, it's a valve that will slam shut on the incoming gas supply if a fire alarm occurs or if a panic button is hit in the kitchen. I was less than amused to find that there were a couple of good old fashioned clothes pegs on the valve stem, their only purpose being to prevent the valve from closing if activated.

Turned out that the Wok cooker has 2 very large burners on it that were generating such a strong heat surge that the overtemp alarm sensors in the extract ducts were activating on a regular basis, so to prevent the kitchen from being completely shut down every time the alarm went off, the gas cut off valve was effectively disabled by their "engineer" to allow them to keep operating.

The final straw was to discover a small but continuous leak in the external meter cabinet.

A number of these issues had been seen and passed over by a RGI plumber, so you'll excuse me if I am more than slightly cyical about the level of professionalism that is being promoted here,while I am not in any way denigrating the skills and professionalism of the people that post here, I would respect them more if they were less aggressive with some of their comments, as I know from experience that there are engineers out there here in Ireland working on gas and even more so on electricity that are a lot less than acceptable when it comes to the things they let go or ignore.
The RGI Plumber that had been at this site only a few days earlier should by rights have closed off the gas supply, sealed it to prevent it being turned on again, and reported it to Bord Gais.

By the time the job was finished, the only outstanding issue was the leak in the external meter cabinet, which required Bord Gais attention.

Let me make it clear. I have no problem at all with appropriate levels of safety controls, but the way that CER are going with both gas and electricity is just too far. It's being suggested that if CER gets it's way, I could face 3 YEARS in jail, or a 15000 Euro fine for changing a 13 Amp socket in my hallway.

If things carry on going this way, life will become very complicated and expensive for a house owner.

If I go out, I will have to be driven by my qualified mechanic as a car is a dangerous machine that should not be operated by a mere person.

When I come home, I will need the services of a locksmith to open my door, followed shortly afterwards by the services of a member of the Private Security Association who will have to operate my alarm for me.

My electrician will have to operate my lights for me, and once I am comfortably seated, my RGI plumber will then fill my kettle and put it on the gas to boil.

When the tea has been made, a Health & Safety inspector will have to check it to make sure that it is not contaminated, and that the temperature is safe for me to drink it.

At that stage, the Inspector from the Local authority will arrive to ensure that I am not in danger of overcrowding my house.

Oh, before I go, is it a safepass I need before I can have a good F**T before I go to bed?

I've heard that most of that training these days is on how to use a chemical bog and leave it acceptable for the next user.

The last few lines are only slightly tongue in cheek. In the UK, it's reached the stage where I can replace a 13 amp socket in the lounge, but not in the kitchen, and the same is true for a light fitting, if the Flourescent light fitting in the kitchen needs replacing, I'm not allowed to to do that, but the same fitting in the Garage is fine.

This is regulation gone mad, for the wrong reasons. It wouldn't be so bad if the regulatory bodies had sensible joining requirements, but too many of them don't.

I've spent 40 years working with computer equipment, and I'm not talking about PC's here, some of the kit I was involved with occupied an entire floor of a large office block, needed large 3 phase power supplies supplemented by battery backed uninteruptable power supplies, with auto start diesel standby generators, but because I was trained by the company I was working for, and can't produce a certificate to prove it, I can't register for the relevant body here, which could mean that before too long, I won't be allowed to do anything more hazardous than change a fuse!.

I only have utter contempt for a system that has become so paranoid that it can't recognise that there are plenty of people out there that are capable of doing good work, but they can't actually produce a piece of paper to "prove" it. My company didn't provide a certificate of training because they didn't want their engineers to be able to walk into any other company and get work with them on the strength of being able to prove their training.

These sorts of controls are one of the reasons why the economy of Ireland has become so uncompetitive, by the time all the extras have been paid for, the costs are out of this world,


OK Shane, you're safe, message ends.

And by the way, I do understand regulation and licensing very clearly, I have licences for the most regulated and controlled systems in the world, if I was 30 years younger, I'd probably have been sitting in the right hand seat of an Airbus 380, as I spent the time and effort required to get an Airline Transport Pilot's Licence, and you don't get that from FAS after spending 6 days at an "approved training facility" reading the crib sheets for the exam questions.

channelsurfer2

code is definetly d2. system heats up then shuts off when it reaches the temp thats been set 70C and goes 3 or 4 degrees over 70c. d2 comes on until it evetually kicks back in again when it has cooled down below a certain temp. performs a continous cycle like this. d2 is the code that it has gone over its max temp and needs to shut off seemingly.

at this stage i am weary of putting ds40 in even for 4 hours as the plumber suggests due to the risk of "pinholing".
powerflushing with a less agressive version might be a better option. He says the heat exchanger definetly cannot be removed and just cleaned on its own, yet it can be removed and replaced with a brand new one costing 450euro plus labour as ferroli must think their parts are made of gold dust or something...

shane0007

Irish Steve wrote: »

Well, I am going to make some waves.

[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Magenta"]Shane, if you're reading this, and really are on Valium, you're excused, and should jump now to the text below that's Magenta, I don't want to be held responsible for raising your blood pressure any higher.
[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]The comments that follow are NOT in any way aimed at any of the engineers that are members of boards.ie and contribute in these forums[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Commercial gas work is still not as regulated as domestic, probably because some of the equipment is somewhat specialist, and manufacturers instructions are the best guide to making sure they work.

For all sorts of reasons, I got involved with a Chinese restaurant a while back when it was changing hands.

In the kitchen, there is a very large Chinese Wok cooker, with somwhere around 10 burners of varying sizes on it. It is not in the first flush of youth, and has been well worked over the time it's been there,

I got landed with deep cleaning it, and this is a cooker that has a water bath around all the burners, which prevents overheating, and is also used as a fundamental part of the cooking process, water from the bath is added to things being cooked, and also used to rinse out woks between use. Deep cleaning it was a 2 day job, and required a massive strip down to be acceptable

Most of the cooker had to be stripped, including burners, pilot fittings, the flame faiilure sensors, some of the gas valves due to wear, and the whole of the water deck in order to get the build up of significant lime scale out of the hidden areas, as they were a health risk. Quite a few bits spent a long time in a chemical bath to get the grease, oil, carbon and other residue off them. Some, at 10Ft long, were too big and heavy to go into the chemical bath, so they had to be cleaned the hard way.

Some of the issues found on the gas side were interesting to say the least.

Pilots re connected to a ball valve, with no flame failure device associated with the supply.

Pilot feed pipes cut off and folded over to close them.

Flame failure devices completely removed from the supply taps, so that they would light regardless of the status of the flame failure system

Damaged and badly blocked burners that flared in all directions, mixer tubes wrapped in silver foil to change the performance of the burner, and a number of other issues related to the supply connection.

At a later stage, I had to go into the boiler house, there are 2 boilers out there, one for the heating, and one for the hot water. Both were in dire condition, with again, a number of faults that were in urgent need of repair.

The icing on the cake was when I looked at the gas lock out valve, a device not normally found in domestic situations, it's a valve that will slam shut on the incoming gas supply if a fire alarm occurs or if a panic button is hit in the kitchen. I was less than amused to find that there were a couple of good old fashioned clothes pegs on the valve stem, their only purpose being to prevent the valve from closing if activated.

Turned out that the Wok cooker has 2 very large burners on it that were generating such a strong heat surge that the overtemp alarm sensors in the extract ducts were activating on a regular basis, so to prevent the kitchen from being completely shut down every time the alarm went off, the gas cut off valve was effectively disabled by their "engineer" to allow them to keep operating.

The final straw was to discover a small but continuous leak in the external meter cabinet.

A number of these issues had been seen and passed over by a RGI plumber, so you'll excuse me if I am more than slightly cyical about the level of professionalism that is being promoted here,while I am not in any way denigrating the skills and professionalism of the people that post here, I would respect them more if they were less aggressive with some of their comments, as I know from experience that there are engineers out there here in Ireland working on gas and even more so on electricity that are a lot less than acceptable when it comes to the things they let go or ignore.
The RGI Plumber that had been at this site only a few days earlier should by rights have closed off the gas supply, sealed it to prevent it being turned on again, and reported it to Bord Gais.

By the time the job was finished, the only outstanding issue was the leak in the external meter cabinet, which required Bord Gais attention.

Let me make it clear. I have no problem at all with appropriate levels of safety controls, but the way that CER are going with both gas and electricity is just too far. It's being suggested that if CER gets it's way, I could face 3 YEARS in jail, or a 15000 Euro fine for changing a 13 Amp socket in my hallway.

If things carry on going this way, life will become very complicated and expensive for a house owner.

If I go out, I will have to be driven by my qualified mechanic as a car is a dangerous machine that should not be operated by a mere person.

When I come home, I will need the services of a locksmith to open my door, followed shortly afterwards by the services of a member of the Private Security Association who will have to operate my alarm for me.

My electrician will have to operate my lights for me, and once I am comfortably seated, my RGI plumber will then fill my kettle and put it on the gas to boil.

When the tea has been made, a Health & Safety inspector will have to check it to make sure that it is not contaminated, and that the temperature is safe for me to drink it.

At that stage, the Inspector from the Local authority will arrive to ensure that I am not in danger of overcrowding my house.

Oh, before I go, is it a safepass I need before I can have a good F**T before I go to bed?

I've heard that most of that training these days is on how to use a chemical bog and leave it acceptable for the next user.

The last few lines are only slightly tongue in cheek. In the UK, it's reached the stage where I can replace a 13 amp socket in the lounge, but not in the kitchen, and the same is true for a light fitting, if the Flourescent light fitting in the kitchen needs replacing, I'm not allowed to to do that, but the same fitting in the Garage is fine.

This is regulation gone mad, for the wrong reasons. It wouldn't be so bad if the regulatory bodies had sensible joining requirements, but too many of them don't.

I've spent 40 years working with computer equipment, and I'm not talking about PC's here, some of the kit I was involved with occupied an entire floor of a large office block, needed large 3 phase power supplies supplemented by battery backed uninteruptable power supplies, with auto start diesel standby generators, but because I was trained by the company I was working for, and can't produce a certificate to prove it, I can't register for the relevant body here, which could mean that before too long, I won't be allowed to do anything more hazardous than change a fuse!.

I only have utter contempt for a system that has become so paranoid that it can't recognise that there are plenty of people out there that are capable of doing good work, but they can't actually produce a piece of paper to "prove" it. My company didn't provide a certificate of training because they didn't want their engineers to be able to walk into any other company and get work with them on the strength of being able to prove their training.

These sorts of controls are one of the reasons why the economy of Ireland has become so uncompetitive, by the time all the extras have been paid for, the costs are out of this world,

[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Magenta"]
OK Shane, you're safe, message ends.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

And by the way, I do understand regulation and licensing very clearly, I have licences for the most regulated and controlled systems in the world, if I was 30 years younger, I'd probably have been sitting in the right hand seat of an Airbus 380, as I spent the time and effort required to get an Airline Transport Pilot's Licence, and you don't get that from FAS after spending 6 days at an "approved training facility" reading the crib sheets for the exam questions.

Well Steve you are the probably the most dangerous type of person out there. You have admitted to working on a gas appliance illegally & you have committed a criminal offence. Worse still you have worked on a commercial gas appliance which carried far greater volumes of gas and therefore put more people's lives at risk.
Commercial gas is not regulated by RGII at the moment but is still law & comes under the CER under IS820.
You have broken the law. You must still be a trained, certified & competent to work on a commercial gas appliance. The downfall is you don't have to be certified in Commercial Gas works but still have to be certified to work on gas.
You are more dangerous than the general public working on gas as you think you are smarter than everyone else. Just because you worked on a computer does not give you the knowledge to strip down a gas appliance and try to repair it.

I am reporting this post to the CER and hopefully they will be in touch with Boards to get your personal information & go to town on you. I am quoting your whole post in case you try to amend or delete it.

You are a danger & a menace to all society & most likey will not heed anybody's warnings.

To the Mods: IMHO IrishSteve should be permanently banned for posting dangerous advice and promoting dangerous & illegal works but that is your decision.