Ferroli SYS 10-23 problem

jsd1004

I have a Ferroli 10-23 sys that is banging when it runs. I have been told it is more than likely a blocked heat exchanger. A new heat exchanger is approx 500euro for the part. Can the old one be descaled? It is in a very hard water area and is more than likely scale. I can take it out myself. Thanks.

shane0007

jsd1004 wrote: »

I can take it out myself.

No you cannot. By law it must be carried out by a registered gas installer (RGI). Prison sentence plus €15,000 fine if you do. It will be copped by RGI on next service and reported on cert that is sent back to RGII.

jsd1004

shane0007 wrote: »

No you cannot. By law it must be carried out by a registered gas installer (RGI). Prison sentence plus €15,000 fine if you do. It will be copped by RGI on next service and reported on cert that is sent back to RGII.

Thanks for the law advice. Any help with the initial problem. I have an RGI taking it out. I did not mean me literally. He is advising a new one but i reckon its worth descaling.

shane0007

jsd1004 wrote: »

Thanks for the law advice. Any help with the initial problem. I have an RGI taking it out. I did not mean me literally. He is advising a new one but i reckon its worth descaling.

That is not what you said!

It is hit & miss whether you can successfully descale a heat exchanger. Usually with DS40 in conjunction with a power flusher overnight.
I would take your RGI's advice as he is one standing in front of the boiler examining it.

jsd1004

shane0007 wrote: »

That is not what you said!

It is hit & miss whether you can successfully descale a heat exchanger. Usually with DS40 in conjunction with a power flusher overnight.
I would take your RGI's advice as he is one standing in front of the boiler examining it.

OK. Removed the exchanger flushed and soaked for 24hours in vinegar. Installed and boiler is working fine. Saved 471 euro in parts alone.

shane0007

jsd1004 wrote: »

OK. Removed the exchanger flushed and soaked for 24hours in vinegar. Installed and boiler is working fine. Saved 471 euro in parts alone.

Who removed it?

jsd1004

shane0007 wrote: »

Who removed it?

Friend is an RGI so mates rates. He reckons a minor blockage can cause it. About an hour and half labour each way. In fairness its not worth the hassle for an RGI to spend two days messing with a heat exchanger that might or might not unblock. Better off getting a new one.

shane0007

jsd1004 wrote: »

Friend is an RGI so mates rates. He reckons a minor blockage can cause it. About an hour and half labour each way. In fairness its not worth the hassle for an RGI to spend two days messing with a heat exchanger that might or might not unblock. Better off getting a new one.

Did he issue you with an RGII Cert 3 following the repair?

jsd1004

shane0007 wrote: »

Did he issue you with an RGII Cert 3 following the repair?

Maybe if i sent on you on his details you could discuss with him if he is a competent RGI. I asked a simple question and you seem to be more interested in the qualifications of the RGI. Please keep it on topic. To summarise for anyone else who has a similar problem. Yes.. a heat exchanger can be descaled unblocked but does require a considerable amount of time and effort. I think this thread can now be closed.

Billy Bunting

jsd1004 wrote: »

Maybe if i sent on you on his details you could discuss with him if he is a competent RGI. I asked a simple question and you seem to be more interested in the qualifications of the RGI. Please keep it on topic. To summarise for anyone else who has a similar problem. Yes.. a heat exchanger can be descaled unblocked but does require a considerable amount of time and effort. I think this thread can now be closed.

Well a descale with vinegar says a lot about their qualifications and their professionalism, congrats on your savings. :rolleyes:

shane0007

jsd1004 wrote: »

Maybe if i sent on you on his details you could discuss with him if he is a competent RGI. I asked a simple question and you seem to be more interested in the qualifications of the RGI. Please keep it on topic. To summarise for anyone else who has a similar problem. Yes.. a heat exchanger can be descaled unblocked but does require a considerable amount of time and effort. I think this thread can now be closed.

I did not know you are a Moderator!
No, I am not interested in his details but was more interested in IF you worked illegally on a gas boiler as you distinctly said:

jsd1004 wrote: »

I can take it out myself.

And

jsd1004 wrote: »

OK. Removed the exchanger flushed and soaked for 24hours in vinegar. Installed and boiler is working fine. Saved 471 euro in parts alone.

If an RGI carried out the work, excellent, as a Cert 3 will have been issued and copied to RGII & the system has been tested to be operating safely.
However, if you carried out the works yourself, well need I say more....
Somebody who has an RGI there doing the work would never naturally use the terms you have as the RGI would not be getting you to find out how to do it!

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

I did not know you are a Moderator!
No, I am not interested in his details but was more interested in IF you worked illegally on a gas boiler as you distinctly said:


And


If an RGI carried out the work, excellent, as a Cert 3 will have been issued and copied to RGII & the system has been tested to be operating safely.
However, if you carried out the works yourself, well need I say more....
Somebody who has an RGI there doing the work would never naturally use the terms you have as the RGI would not be getting you to find out how to do it!

Me thinks the RGI was imaginary!!

shane0007

Dtp79 wrote: »

Me thinks the RGI was imaginary!!

Aye and there is nothing like gas to give somebody a wake up call!
Lets hope he does not find out the hard way.

jsd1004

shane0007 wrote: »

I did not know you are a Moderator!
No, I am not interested in his details but was more interested in IF you worked illegally on a gas boiler as you distinctly said:


And


If an RGI carried out the work, excellent, as a Cert 3 will have been issued and copied to RGII & the system has been tested to be operating safely.
However, if you carried out the works yourself, well need I say more....
Somebody who has an RGI there doing the work would never naturally use the terms you have as the RGI would not be getting you to find out how to do it!

I can assure you an RGI has removed the heat exchanger and handed it to me. I was initially going to install a new boiler as a new boiler was in the region of 650 euro and not much more than a heat exchanger. I am a qualified BMeng but would not go near a gas boiler as i do not have a hands on mechanical background. I do however have a wealth of experience in general problem solving and know that limescale and any strong acid (vinegar hcl citric acid) will disolve alkaline based deposits. FYI the supplier of the new gas boiler had offered to source me a non reg plumber to install a direct replacement boiler for 150euro as my RGI does not do full install (just servicing and maintenance). So contrary to what you might think there does not seem to be a shortage of plumbers to do RGI work. MY RGI knew the guy and said yes he would put it in and actually said the guy is a good plumber and knows his stuff.

Robbie.G

With that last statement you've open a whole big can of worms good luck

Billy Bunting

jsd1004 wrote: »

I can assure you an RGI has removed the heat exchanger and handed it to me. I was initially going to install a new boiler as a new boiler was in the region of 650 euro and not much more than a heat exchanger. I am a qualified BMeng but would not go near a gas boiler as i do not have a hands on mechanical background. I do however have a wealth of experience in general problem solving and know that limescale and any strong acid (vinegar hcl citric acid) will disolve alkaline based deposits. FYI the supplier of the new gas boiler had offered to source me a non reg plumber to install a direct replacement boiler for 150euro as my RGI does not do full install (just servicing and maintenance). So contrary to what you might think there does not seem to be a shortage of plumbers to do RGI work. MY RGI knew the guy and said yes he would put it in and actually said the guy is a good plumber and knows his stuff.

So who put it back.

Dtp79

jsd1004 wrote: »

I can assure you an RGI has removed the heat exchanger and handed it to me. I was initially going to install a new boiler as a new boiler was in the region of 650 euro and not much more than a heat exchanger. I am a qualified BMeng but would not go near a gas boiler as i do not have a hands on mechanical background. I do however have a wealth of experience in general problem solving and know that limescale and any strong acid (vinegar hcl citric acid) will disolve alkaline based deposits. FYI the supplier of the new gas boiler had offered to source me a non reg plumber to install a direct replacement boiler for 150euro as my RGI does not do full install (just servicing and maintenance). So contrary to what you might think there does not seem to be a shortage of plumbers to do RGI work. MY RGI knew the guy and said yes he would put it in and actually said the guy is a good plumber and knows his stuff.

So you have in your possession a cert 3 from the RGI then?

shane0007

jsd1004 wrote: »

I can assure you an RGI has removed the heat exchanger and handed it to me. I was initially going to install a new boiler as a new boiler was in the region of 650 euro and not much more than a heat exchanger. I am a qualified BMeng but would not go near a gas boiler as i do not have a hands on mechanical background. I do however have a wealth of experience in general problem solving and know that limescale and any strong acid (vinegar hcl citric acid) will disolve alkaline based deposits. FYI the supplier of the new gas boiler had offered to source me a non reg plumber to install a direct replacement boiler for 150euro as my RGI does not do full install (just servicing and maintenance). So contrary to what you might think there does not seem to be a shortage of plumbers to do RGI work. MY RGI knew the guy and said yes he would put it in and actually said the guy is a good plumber and knows his stuff.

Right where do I start.....
Well first off, what supplier gave you that advice? That statement really p****s me off. He should be shut down & never let supply even a screw for a gas boiler.
Next off, your RGI stands over this guys gas works? Well, that really says a lot for your RGI, doesn't it? It is not only illegal but extremely dangerous. Even you have a duty of care to the persons surrounding you. You well know it is a criminal offence to work on a gas appliance (even opening the boiler) if you are not a registered gas installer. This is for good reason. A gas explosion will not only take down your house, but also any building surrounding yours. It can kill & mame without prejudice, old & young & if I knew your installation was carried out by an unregistered person whether it be you or some fruitloop, considered it reported to both RGII and the gas supplier as an immediate unsafe & dangerous installation.

But hey, what do I know, we are in a recession, and saving a few bucks is worth more than a life nowadays!

With regard to your so called successful flush, it may or may not be. You may have got rid of it, or the bones of it is probably still there. It depends on the exchanger whether every bit can be got at. Is there iron oxide mixed with the scale? Are all the exchanger hotspots free or just skimmed? Usually not.
Why was there scale there in the first instance? If you have not addressed this, it won't be long before it is back and you will be getting back your team of "experts" again!

jsd1004

shane0007 wrote: »

Right where do I start.....
Well first off, what supplier gave you that advice? That statement really p****s me off. He should be shut down & never let supply even a screw for a gas boiler.
Next off, your RGI stands over this guys gas works? Well, that really says a lot for your RGI, doesn't it? It is not only illegal but extremely dangerous. Even you have a duty of care to the persons surrounding you. You well know it is a criminal offence to work on a gas appliance (even opening the boiler) if you are not a registered gas installer. This is for good reason. A gas explosion will not only take down your house, but also any building surrounding yours. It can kill & mame without prejudice, old & young & if I knew your installation was carried out by an unregistered person whether it be you or some fruitloop, considered it reported to both RGII and the gas supplier as an immediate unsafe & dangerous installation.

But hey, what do I know, we are in a recession, and saving a few bucks is worth more than a life nowadays!

With regard to your so called successful flush, it may or may not be. You may have got rid of it, or the bones of it is probably still there. It depends on the exchanger whether every bit can be got at. Is there iron oxide mixed with the scale? Are all the exchanger hotspots free or just skimmed? Usually not.
Why was there scale there in the first instance? If you have not addressed this, it won't be long before it is back and you will be getting back your team of "experts" again!

Jesus get a grip drama queen. I am sitting here with the RGI. The RGI installed it certified the boiler and agreed happy days it works. He said it might clog again the boiler might stop but he/it is not going to kill anyone even if it does. You know that the heat exchanger can be removed with just removing the gas connection to the burner. There is only gas when the gas valve is open. The only possibility of a gas leak at that connection is when the gas valve is open and then not very likely. So less of the blow the whole neighbours kids up please. I am fully aware as he is that the heat exchanger may block in the future again.

shane0007

jsd1004 wrote: »

Jesus get a grip drama queen. I am sitting here with the RGI. The RGI installed it certified the boiler and agreed happy days it works. He said it might clog again the boiler might stop but he/it is not going to kill anyone even if it does. You know that the heat exchanger can be removed with just removing the gas connection to the burner. There is only gas when the gas valve is open. The only possibility of a gas leak at that connection is when the gas valve is open and then not very likely. So less of the blow the whole neighbours kids up please. I am fully aware as he is that the heat exchanger may block in the future again.

Less of the name calling. I did not take that immature attitude with you & I expect the same respect back.

I was referring to non-RGI's working on a gas appliance, such as the guy your RGI recommends to work on a gas appliance that is also not registered! How would he know or you for that matter if you disturbed a joint, or did not seal the flue correctly or any number of things you could do to a gas boiler that creates an issue, both gas & flue.

I notice both you and him are keeping stum about your comments about your supplier and installer. Perhaps he should discuss those recommendations with RGII.

Dtp79

jsd1004 wrote: »

Jesus get a grip drama queen. I am sitting here with the RGI. The RGI installed it certified the boiler and agreed happy days it works. He said it might clog again the boiler might stop but he/it is not going to kill anyone even if it does. You know that the heat exchanger can be removed with just removing the gas connection to the burner. There is only gas when the gas valve is open. The only possibility of a gas leak at that connection is when the gas valve is open and then not very likely. So less of the blow the whole neighbours kids up please. I am fully aware as he is that the heat exchanger may block in the future again.

Not very likely???
Is that what you'd say to a judge if something did go wrong?? It's backward attitudes like yours that ends up killing people

Micky Dolenz

jsd1004 wrote: »

Jesus get a grip drama queen. I am sitting here with the RGI. The RGI installed it certified the boiler and agreed happy days it works. He said it might clog again the boiler might stop but he/it is not going to kill anyone even if it does. You know that the heat exchanger can be removed with just removing the gas connection to the burner. There is only gas when the gas valve is open. The only possibility of a gas leak at that connection is when the gas valve is open and then not very likely. So less of the blow the whole neighbours kids up please. I am fully aware as he is that the heat exchanger may block in the future again.

Just so you are crystal clear.

If you are not a Registered Gas Installer, it is illegal to do any work on the boiler, any. Be it electrics or on the wet side. Basically, you can not remove the cover.

Of course no one can tell you what to do in your home, unless of course you get caught out for whatever reason. Insurance companies are getting better at this.

anthonyos

id rather have a non rgi plumber install my boiler than an rgi brick layer or a taxi man

Micky Dolenz

anthonyos wrote: »

id rather have a non rgi plumber install my boiler than an rgi brick layer or a taxi man

Then you would have an uncertified installation. No warranty or insurance claim if something went wrong.

I see your point and all legit guys would agree but why not go for a RGII plumber? Ass completely covered then.

shane0007

Would you if it was LPG?

At least the bricklayer could rebuild your house if he knocked it and the insurance company would pay out!

OP just to clarify, boilers can go bang or produce high levels of carbon monoxide, they are more inclined to do this after they have been poked at I find.

The ease at which bad things can happen is frightening at times, sadly, it can be over something silly being done or not being done at the time, this knowledge leads to grumpy RGI's like me who get grumpier when there's even the suggestion of the inexperienced working on gas.

The only thing protecting a RGI from the powers that be is the cert they must leave, hence the importance of a cert for the RGI and the cert protects the householder if ever the need arises.

It takes a large amount of paranoia to work safely on gas and a sprinkling of OCD, unfortunately there the bits I find that are missing when the inexperienced work on gas.

corkgsxr

Youd be suprised what turns up with a basic soundness test.

And the proper gauge is about 100 euro. All the rest its very hard to see a small drop

jsd1004

shane0007 wrote: »

Less of the name calling. I did not take that immature attitude with you & I expect the same respect back.

I was referring to non-RGI's working on a gas appliance, such as the guy your RGI recommends to work on a gas appliance that is also not registered! How would he know or you for that matter if you disturbed a joint, or did not seal the flue correctly or any number of things you could do to a gas boiler that creates an issue, both gas & flue.

I notice both you and him are keeping stum about your comments about your supplier and installer. Perhaps he should discuss those recommendations with RGII.

Just to be clear my RGI said he knew the plumber and he is a good plumber. He did not recommend him or endorse him to do gas work. Aside from that just because someone gets a fas cert does not make them a good installer. RGI's can blow the neighbours house up too.

corkgsxr

jsd1004 wrote: »

Just to be clear my RGI said he knew the plumber and he is a good plumber. He did not recommend him or endorse him to do gas work. Aside from that just because someone gets a fas cert does not make them a good installer. RGI's can blow the neighbours house up too.

but there insurance covers them to blow someones house up

gifted

Where can I get popcorn around here?..some great entertainment here

Micky Dolenz

jsd1004 wrote: »

Just to be clear my RGI said he knew the plumber and he is a good plumber. He did not recommend him or endorse him to do gas work. Aside from that just because someone gets a fas cert does not make them a good installer. RGI's can blow the neighbours house up too.

Might be worth throwing a system cleanser in to prevent blockages in the future or even a power flush if funds allow.

jimf

gifted wrote: »

Where can I get popcorn around here?..some great entertainment here

yes i agree to an extent

but so many threads on here recently have turned into pissin competitions posters come on boards to seek advice if they dont like the advice they receive they make any excuse under the sun not to take it

to me it looks as if they want permission from well qualified people to do it their way wrong or right why bother to ask at all

mike literis

would it not be an idea to ban all questions by the public on gas related topics , because every thread on the subject turns into a farce , and it's the same bunch of rgi's that come on telling the same story's and scare mongering . everyone knows the dangers and the possible outcomes of different scenarios and at this stage everyone can guess the responses from each individual rgi on this site and when they act as a group . it's getting boring at this stage .

Billy Bunting

mike literis wrote: »

would it not be an idea to ban all questions by the public on gas related topics , because every thread on the subject turns into a farce , and it's the same bunch of rgi's that come on telling the same story's and scare mongering . everyone knows the dangers and the possible outcomes of different scenarios and at this stage everyone can guess the responses from each individual rgi on this site and when they act as a group . it's getting boring at this stage .

Boring!!!! :rolleyes:

mike literis

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Boring!!!! :rolleyes:

look who it is , and on que . wonder who will post next :-)

Robbie.G

Did you guess right lol

mike literis

Robbie.G wrote: »

Did you guess right lol

yes I predicted it would be an rgi , I'm good arnt I

shane0007

mike literis wrote: »

would it not be an idea to ban all questions by the public on gas related topics , because every thread on the subject turns into a farce , and it's the same bunch of rgi's that come on telling the same story's and scare mongering . everyone knows the dangers and the possible outcomes of different scenarios and at this stage everyone can guess the responses from each individual rgi on this site and when they act as a group . it's getting boring at this stage .

Perhaps the hundreds of members that have been helped FOC with minor problems that were external of the boiler or the ones that were a bit more educated when calling in an RGI might disagree with you.
If you are that bored with it, you do not have to look!
We tell the same stories because we have seen first hand the work that muppets have done. We have seen first hand the dangers they have put people in. We have seen the amount they have ripped off people. I could go on but I really do not wish to bore you nor visualise you peeping through your curtains to see what is happening in the gas threads on Boards!

I personally would be at a great loss from learning from some of the best people in the business if they were to stop contributing here, so please people, do not stop and my mind is wide open. Even the debates that go amiss have wealth within them....

DGOBS

Ok lads, calm down.......FFS

It's great that using vinegar has unblocked your heatexchanger, even more so on a Ferroli as parts are mad money.

The only issue you may find is, only a single passageway has opened and not them all, and success maybe short lived, I hope to be proved wrong. I usually find when re-conditioned exchangers, the solution (vinegar or whatever descaler you use) will not fill all the internal structure, even with a lot of sloshing and tilting, because of the blockages, and after a lot (and I mean a lot) of experimentation and cutting them open afterwards I still find lots of calcium deposits.

The problem is, that when it is put back in use, there isn't the correct flow of water so you still get a large temperature differential across the exchanger, which leads to rapid calcification once again.

It's great it worked for you, and with your RGI mate beside you, it's certainly worth a go (even more than once) but I hope you can understand why we couldn't do this for customers in general, as the work we carried out could not be stood over, and with mutilpe visits may only end up in the same situation they started in, just at a greater cost.

As one of the lads here suggested, your system may now benefit from a good chemical treatment, a good descaler and inhibitor, to try and maintain the good result you have achieved.

As for the scare-mongering, we have all seen the DIY etc that has not worked out well for any concerned, so unfortunately those of us in the industry tend to get a bit hardfaced about safety. It's not intending as anything but to make people fully aware of what can go wrong, and the guys would be amiss not to do so.

One last work of advice, Shane, think you need some valium mate, your missus is going to find you slumped over your keyboard some night after a heart attack!! ;-)

shane0007

DGOBS wrote: »

One last work of advice, Shane, think you need some valium mate, your missus is going to find you slumped over your keyboard some night after a heart attack!! ;-)

Lol, I am permanently on prescription Valium anyhow. Would you believe I am actually levitating above my iPad as I write this!!!

jsd1004

shane0007 wrote: »

Lol, I am permanently on prescription Valium anyhow. Would you believe I am actually levitating above my iPad as I write this!!!

40 replies later. I never thought it would be such an interesting topic. Anyway thanks guys..Boiler is still working fine but i guess i need a powerflush and there is also a slight leak from one of the water valves so that will need to be replaced. Would anyone like to quote me or give me an idea of cost. (My RGI does not do powerflushing) I am in the Limerick area.

Dtp79

jsd1004 wrote: »

40 replies later. I never thought it would be such an interesting topic. Anyway thanks guys..Boiler is still working fine but i guess i need a powerflush and there is also a slight leak from one of the water valves so that will need to be replaced. Would anyone like to quote me or give me an idea of cost. (My RGI does not do powerflushing) I am in the Limerick area.

You'd be talking at least 400 euro. Depends on the size of your system. How many rads?

jsd1004

Dtp79 wrote: »

You'd be talking at least 400 euro. Depends on the size of your system. How many rads?

3bed so 7 i guess. Its rented so would have to check.

sullzz

jsd1004 wrote: »

(My RGI does not do powerflushing)

So you don't do power flushing

I'd say your looking at about the 500 euro mark.

channelsurfer2

interesting dicussion. Just come across the same problem myself so trying to decide whether its worth bothering replacing the heat exchanger , try and clean the heat exchange(due to lack of funds) or just saving for an new boiler...

Dtp79

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

interesting dicussion. Just come across the same problem myself so trying to decide whether its worth bothering replacing the heat exchanger , try and clean the heat exchange(due to lack of funds) or just saving for an new boiler...

How old is your current boiler?

channelsurfer2

3 years 9 months.

shane0007

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

3 years 9 months.

It's not that old. I would powerflush first as if you replace the boiler you will have to powerflush anyhow. At least this way, there will be a reasonable chance the powerflush will clear the heat exchanger, well depending the Powerflushing machine used.

channelsurfer2

shane0007 wrote: »

It's not that old. I would powerflush first as if you replace the boiler you will have to powerflush anyhow. At least this way, there will be a reasonable chance the powerflush will clear the heat exchanger, well depending the Powerflushing machine used.

Ah ok the system was powerflushed 26 months ago and we got a water softener in then so didn't consider that as an option. Boiler had been given trouble since day 1 really so this is d last straw.

shane0007

So what is wrong with the boiler? Is the heat exchanger blocked? Is it kettling?
If it is, then why is it? Is there an automatic filling valve hiding a leak or a semi-sealed system hiding a leak? Is it fed from the cwst & non-return failed.
Something has to be amiss to affect the heat exchanger so this must be investigated & resolved.

channelsurfer2

shane0007 wrote: »

So what is wrong with the boiler? Is the heat exchanger blocked? Is it kettling?
If it is, then why is it? Is there an automatic filling valve hiding a leak or a semi-sealed system hiding a leak? Is it fed from the cwst & non-return failed.
Something has to be amiss to affect the heat exchanger so this must be investigated & resolved.

Plumber said that was the cause error code d2 is coming up. He can't hear kettling whatever that is.he says he can try cleaning ut wit special dw40?but its an aluminium shell