Why are Degree courses in Ireland 4 years?

asphalt_jungle

In England, a Degree lasts 3 years and costs more money to weed out the non serious students. Does this mean they are worth more to employers? Have you encountered any stick over this? A year is a big difference for the same qualification. It implies that Irish students on average, slower. My idea to save money for the Gubbermint - make ALL 4 year degree courses 3 years. This would save quite a bit of money for the taxpayer. A 4 year degree makes very little sense. Agreed?

Pawwed Rig

It depends what you're studying. Some degrees are 3 years some are 4 years

jaffa20

Some are 3 and some are 4 afaik. Same as in uk.

Redhairedguy

My B.A degree in Galway was only 3 years...

bleg

asphalt_jungle wrote: »

In England, a Degree lasts 3 years and costs more money to weed out the non serious students. Does this mean they are worth more to employers? Have you encountered any stick over this? A year is a big difference for the same qualification. It implies that Irish students on average, slower. My idea to save money for the Gubbermint - make ALL 4 year degree courses 3 years. This would save quite a bit of money for the taxpayer. A 4 year degree makes very little sense. Agreed?

My degree was 9-6 most days with an hour for lunch over most of the 4 years, 5 days a week. Can't really condense that.

Where To

My degree in Coleraine was three years.

Oh wait. . . . . . .

asphalt_jungle

Redhairedguy wrote: »

My B.A degree in Galway was only 3 years...

Arts appears to be the exception. The vast majority of courses in Ireland are 4 years. Besides, most Arts students do a postgrad afterwards.

srsly78

The Bologna process standardised all of this.

In England a 4 year course usually gives a Masters. Our 4 year courses give Hons Degree. Internationally this is recognised to be the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process

Redhairedguy

asphalt_jungle wrote: »

Arts appears to be the exception. The vast majority of courses in Ireland are 4 years. Besides, most Arts students do a postgrad afterwards.

There was nowhere in Galway for me to continue my education, and the majority of people who studied Film & TV in my Galway, stuck with their basic degree and are now working.

Lenin Skynard

Redhairedguy wrote: »

There was nowhere in Galway for me to continue my education, and the majority of people who studied Film & TV in my Galway, stuck with their basic degree and are now working.

What about the Huston Film School?

asphalt_jungle

srsly78 wrote: »

The Bologna process standardised all of this.

In England a 4 year course usually gives a Masters. Our 4 year courses give Hons Degree. Internationally this is recognised to be the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process

Confusing as hell. Because under that "process" an Ordinary Degree(180 ECTS credits) is considered more than enough for a Masters. By that standards, only UK and Irish employers in Europe recognise the concept of an "Honours" degree. WTF? Besides, they most certainly are not the same qualification.

Redhairedguy

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

What about the Huston Film School?

They already require a higher degree for their Masters course, which people coming from Film & TV in Cluain Mhuire wouldn't have.

Overheal

If you want to grind through quicker, you can even do a bachelors in 2 years in some universities and tech institutes; most people just dont have that kind of time or money though, you basically have to already have the funds for cost of living up front. Having a PT job and doing 20+ credit hours/week ain't gonna work.

WhatNowForUs?

It is standardised international through the FETAC levels which are maintained through credits. Credits are given on the amount of time each module in given for completion.

srsly78

asphalt_jungle wrote: »

Confusing as hell. Because under that "process" an Ordinary Degree(180 ECTS credits) is considered more than enough for a Masters. By that standards, only UK and Irish employers in Europe recognise the concept of an "Honours" degree. WTF? Besides, they most certainly are not the same qualification.

Ok, lets say you have a 4 year BA Hons from Trinity. Someone from England has a 4 year MA from Scunthorpe Uni. Internationally these are the same level qualification (same amount of time spent, same credits).

However you are right, the Irish degree is clearly better in this case and most employers know this.

asphalt_jungle

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

It is standardised international through the FETAC levels which are maintained through credits. Credits are given on the amount of time each module in given for completion.

FETAC has no international recognition. It's domestic only. If the credits systems is as it is, why is 180 credit Ordinary Degree/Diploma enough to study a Master's at a top university like Helsinki University, whereas the same qualification would not earn you a place at a Master's in basket weaving at the worst college in Ireland? Because according to the Bologna process, this is the case. Not to mention you can achieve a higher class of degree in England for the same amount of study for a lower qualification in Ireland? Makes no sense.

steddyeddy

asphalt_jungle wrote: »

In England, a Degree lasts 3 years and costs more money to weed out the non serious students. Does this mean they are worth more to employers? Have you encountered any stick over this? A year is a big difference for the same qualification. It implies that Irish students on average, slower. My idea to save money for the Gubbermint - make ALL 4 year degree courses 3 years. This would save quite a bit of money for the taxpayer. A 4 year degree makes very little sense. Agreed?

No it doesn't make much sense. You say increased cost would weed out the less serious students. I think common sense would dictate that academic abilty does not have a corelate with wallet size.

There is a case to bw made for shortening degree course but we would nedd to completely rehaul the leaving cert for it to work. The first year of a lot of degree programs like science is very general. Eg general biology, the second year you pick three streams eg nueroscience, genetics and biochem and then in the third and fourth year you focus on one of those subjects. If they taught the relevent information in leaving cert biology or chemistry then we wouldn't need a first year in science.

asphalt_jungle

steddyeddy wrote: »

No it doesn't make much sense. You say increased cost would weed out the less serious students. I think common sense would dictate that academic abilty does not have a corelate with wallet size.

There is a case to bw made for shortening degree course but we would nedd to completely rehaul the leaving cert for it to work. The first year of a lot of degree programs like science is very general. Eg general biology, the second year you pick three streams eg nueroscience, genetics and biochem and then in the third and fourth year you focus on one of those subjects. If they taught the relevent information in leaving cert biology or chemistry then we wouldn't need a first year in science.

Why not? If they can manage it across the pond in 3 years, I can't see why it can't work here. In the UK, the Government won't even pay any amount in fees, let alone giving out grants to people who don't really deserve them(I am in no way implying this applies to everybody, just my own observation). Even with the increased capitation, an extra year for every student in the country at third level is an additional 2000+ euro wasted in direct costs, not including indirect costs. It's costing the taxpayer with little return on investment. Just saying.

steddyeddy

asphalt_jungle wrote: »

Why not? If they can manage it across the pond in 3 years, I can't see why it can't work here. In the UK, the Government won't even pay any amount in fees, let alone giving out grants to people who don't really deserve them(I am in no way implying this applies to everybody, just my own observation). Even with the increased capitation, an extra year for every student in the country at third level is an additional 2000+ euro wasted in direct costs, not including indirect costs. It's costing the taxpayer with little return on investment. Just saying.

And I'm agreeing with you on the three years point! I just dont think increasing fees will increase student quality. Theres no evidence that people of higher academic ability are also those with a certain level of income.

Ziphius

asphalt_jungle wrote: »

Why not? If they can manage it across the pond in 3 years, I can't see why it can't work here. In the UK, the Government won't even pay any amount in fees, let alone giving out grants to people who don't really deserve them(I am in no way implying this applies to everybody, just my own observation). Even with the increased capitation, an extra year for every student in the country at third level is an additional 2000+ euro wasted in direct costs, not including indirect costs. It's costing the taxpayer with little return on investment. Just saying.

As steddyeddy said, perhaps Irish students aren't as well prepared as their UK counterparts. A levels subjects are taught in much greater depth than their Leaving cert equivalents. So, perhaps, UK universities can start their programmes at a higher level whereas Irish universities must add an extra year to bring all students up to speed.

Bear in mind that the most arts and humanities degrees are already three years. Trinity degrees being the exception.

Mully_2011

So if I have a ordinary degree (180 credits) I can go and do a masters in the UK or Europe ??

steddyeddy

Mully_2011 wrote: »

So if I have a ordinary degree (180 credits) I can go and do a masters in the UK or Europe ??

For science its a 2.1 minimum ro do a masters.

asphalt_jungle

Mully_2011 wrote: »

So if I have a ordinary degree (180 credits) I can go and do a masters in the UK or Europe ??

A Qualifying Degree for a Master's at the University of Helsinki for example(within top 100 worldwide) requires 180 ECTS(Ordinary Degree) credits for entry to a Master's. It's confusing. In general, they don't recognise studies over 3 years as Bachelors level study.

http://www.helsinki.fi/tutkinnonuudistus/english/structure_B_M_degrees.html

ZzubZzub

The nursing degree in the UK takes 3 years because students are either in uni or on placement for 11 months of the year.. And the NHS pays for the course. Good times.

steddyeddy

Cleeo wrote: »

The nursing degree in the UK takes 3 years because students are either in uni or on placement for 11 months of the year.. And the NHS pays for the course. Good times.

And UK nurses have a sexy english accent in my experience :-P. Good times!

ZzubZzub

steddyeddy wrote: »

And UK nurses have a sexy english accent in my experience :-P. Good times!

Not in Essex they don't...

Strawberry Fields

Commerce in UCD is 3 years. Depends on the course
Most UCD are 3 years

Magill

4 Year degrees in the north for a lot of courses too. Mine is a 4 year, mandatory placement in 3rd year. 5 years for a masters (BEng Hons Software Engineering is my course title) you need a 1st to have your costs covered by the university, but you can pay your own fees with a 2:1.

Same with all the Software Eng/Comp Sci/ICT/Engineering degrees here i think. Would imagine 4 years of study being a bit of a waste really (At least in my subject).

steddyeddy

Cleeo wrote: »

Not in Essex they don't...

Oh yes they do!!

steddyeddy

Ziphius wrote: »

As steddyeddy said, perhaps Irish students aren't as well prepared as their UK counterparts. A levels subjects are taught in much greater depth than their Leaving cert equivalents. So, perhaps, UK universities can start their programmes at a higher level whereas Irish universities must add an extra year to bring all students up to speed.

Bear in mind that the most arts and humanities degrees are already three years. Trinity degrees being the exception.

That's it in a nutshell! The A-level subjects explain some aspects of biology really well. Only when we get rid of our system can we get rid of our first "general" year.

sock puppet

srsly78 wrote: »

The Bologna process standardised all of this.

In England a 4 year course usually gives a Masters. Our 4 year courses give Hons Degree. Internationally this is recognised to be the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process

That's a bit confusing no? I mean would most people who stay in academia not do go on to do a PHD after doing a masters (the 4th year of their course) in the UK. Whereas after a four year degree in Trinity most students would go on to a masters, even if they went to the UK?

Ziphius

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell! The A-level subjects explain some aspects of biology really well. Only when we get rid of our system can we get rid of our first "general" year.

Another point to consider is that science courses offered by Irish universities are generally much broader than those offered in the UK (and maybe the rest of Europe too).

Most of the science course in Ireland have a common entry allowing students to study a range of fields before specializing. Whereas courses in the UK tend to be specialized from the first year.

steddyeddy

Ziphius wrote: »

Another point to consider is that science courses offered by Irish universities are generally much broader than those offered in the UK (and maybe the rest of Europe too).

Most of the science course in Ireland have a common entry allowing students to study a range of fields before specializing. Whereas courses in the UK tend to be specialized from the first year.

True. Is that a good or bad thing though? I have no opinion on it really I'm just wondering what your's is.

Tom_Cruise

asphalt_jungle wrote: »

FETAC has no international recognition. It's domestic only. If the credits systems is as it is, why is 180 credit Ordinary Degree/Diploma enough to study a Master's at a top university like Helsinki University, whereas the same qualification would not earn you a place at a Master's in basket weaving at the worst college in Ireland? Because according to the Bologna process, this is the case. Not to mention you can achieve a higher class of degree in England for the same amount of study for a lower qualification in Ireland? Makes no sense.

I was always under the impression that FETAC was/is internationally recognised , i think its FETAC who issue apprentices with their papers when they complete their four years apprenticeship.

I hope this is true, no good being a qualified bricklayer in this country at the minute.

eire-kp

Tom_Cruise wrote: »

I was always under the impression that FETAC was/is internationally recognised , i think its FETAC who issue apprentices with their papers when they complete their four years apprenticeship.

I hope this is true, no good being a qualified bricklayer in this country at the minute.

Yep its Fectac who issue the certs. Generally most countries look at the standards of apprenticeships in the country you have your trade from and if its in line with their own standards your good to go.

Of course there usually is an exam on the specific rules and regulations of that country for the more technical trades.

Generally apprenticeships from here are looked on with good regards e.g 4 years in total with 40 weeks classroom time. In comparison to the UKs system which is a mess.

rannerap

I did a one year degree course through dcu, was unbelievably hard as you pack years worth of learning into one year. so not all courses here are 4 years

Odysseus

Sarannewrap wrote: »

I did a one year degree course through dcu, was unbelievably hard as you pack years worth of learning into one year. so not all courses here are 4 years

That is some amount of work in a year, fair play. Did it consist of two or three semesters?

Ziphius

steddyeddy wrote: »

True. Is that a good or bad thing though? I have no opinion on it really I'm just wondering what your's is.

I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other. I can see there are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. Though,of course, it is good to question these things.

I imagine the difference is simply down to tradition rather than anything else.

rannerap

Odysseus wrote: »

That is some amount of work in a year, fair play. Did it consist of two or three semesters?

It started in September of last year and I had my exams in June and the thesis was due in August, Graduated there last month

srsly78

sock puppet wrote: »

That's a bit confusing no? I mean would most people who stay in academia not do go on to do a PHD after doing a masters (the 4th year of their course) in the UK. Whereas after a four year degree in Trinity most students would go on to a masters, even if they went to the UK?

No. In the UK a Masters is just what you happen to get get from a good uni after 4 years. Equivalent to our Hons Degree if it's a course of similar duration (4 years).

People that actually did post-graduate study and got a master after 5 years will no doubt find this very annoying.

Northern Monkey

Where To wrote: »

My degree in Coleraine was three years.

Oh wait. . . . . . .

Went there myself, wish it was 4 years!

dfx-

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell! The A-level subjects explain some aspects of biology really well. Only when we get rid of our system can we get rid of our first "general" year.

From a chemistry point of view, I wouldn't get rid of the first general year. I supervise first year labs and found a course that had higher level chemistry as a pre-requisite where students had never physically held the most basic lab equipment before third level.

That sort of cobweb has to be cleared out..

DEFTLEFTHAND

Always depends on the degree, a ships officer cadet does two years at the NMCI and one year at sea. Great job, even a 4th officer can make a great wage, remember you spend nothing on board and have generous shore leave.


At the top of the spectrum a Captain in the M.N can earn 6 figures and work half the year.

harney

Mully_2011 wrote: »

So if I have a ordinary degree (180 credits) I can go and do a masters in the UK or Europe ??

In fairness, if you have cash you can do a masters in the UK.

Rhyme

srsly78 wrote: »

The Bologna process standardised all of this.

In England a 4 year course usually gives a Masters. Our 4 year courses give Hons Degree. Internationally this is recognised to be the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process

That both sounds delicious and makes for an interesting read.

looksee

Degree level is HETAC not FETAC, different scales, though they do overlap.

Ziphius

srsly78 wrote: »

No. In the UK a Masters is just what you happen to get get from a good uni after 4 years. Equivalent to our Hons Degree if it's a course of similar duration (4 years).

People that actually did post-graduate study and got a master after 5 years will no doubt find this very annoying.

In the UK Masters can be studied as a separte (one or two year) postgraduate course similar to the Irish system. See Imperials prospectus:http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/pgprospectus/whatcanyoustudy

Some courses will include an extra, optional, masters years. So three years undergraduate plus one year masters. This would be the same as an Irish masters.

The time taken to complete the degree isn't really the important thing it is the level of the degree, or at least its perceived level.

In certain Scottish universities, however, an MA is awarded after four years of studying arts. This is still consiered an undergraduate degree and equaivalent of a three or four year Irish BA. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Arts_%28Scotland%29

Odysseus

So where do you stand with the english system if you did a three year Hons degree? How does that translate?

Ziphius

A three or four year Irish honours degree is equivalent of a three year English bachelor degree.

This page from Aberystwyth University gives comparisions of UK and other EU qualifications. http://iota.wiserhosting.co.uk/~artcypr/comparability.html

Although it also includes "undergraduate Masters" such as MEng, MPhys, or MMath. So, contrary to what I said earlier A four year UK "Masters" degree may indeed be comparable to a four year Irish BA.

Wurly

Sarannewrap wrote: »

It started in September of last year and I had my exams in June and the thesis was due in August, Graduated there last month

Was that via distance learning? Or did you attend the degree? I've never heard of being able to do a degree in such a short space of time. More info if you dont mind please.....:)

GLaDOS

I think a lot of 4 year courses include time for work experience, while a lot of the 3 year ones don't, could be wrong though.