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A quick question re the Big Bang

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    #32
    TheNap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭TheNap


    The simply fact is that whatever the explanation for our universe and our presence in it... there is simply no arguments, data, evidences or reasoning on offer AT ALL to lend even a modicum of credence to the idea that the answer is a non human intelligence which designed and then produced the universe.

    That some people believe it anyway in the face of the lack of ANYTHING to lend it credence remains an intriguing mystery


    ..........................................

    Again its a belief some people have ( not me ) that they're entitled to . I just dont know why it annoys people so much . Maybe if you had the answer for these people i would understand but you dont, nobody does. Maybe its because the greatest scientists in the world cant figure it out that make people believe in a 'god'.


    PM me when you have the answer , until then i will keep an open mind one way or the other ..


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    #33
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    TheNap wrote: »
    I really dont know why you're getting so worked up over this.. But surely this argument could be used by Catholics too ?

    Catholics though use both arguments simultaneously without seeing the hypocrisy of it (or ignoring it) and all atheists do is point out the problem with their argument. They argue everything needs a creator so therefore the Universe needed a creator but then switch mid sentence and say god has always existed and needs no creator. Then on top of that they without reason slot THEIR god in as the one that created the universe while ignoring every other religion's claims.

    Now take most atheists' belief on how the universe came into existence, "I don't know". Seems more rational to me.


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    #34
    TheNap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭TheNap


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Catholics though use both arguments simultaneously without seeing the hypocrisy of it (or ignoring it) and all atheists do is point out the problem with their argument. They argue everything needs a creator so therefore the Universe needed a creator but then switch mid sentence and say god has always existed and needs no creator. Then on top of that they without reason slot THEIR god in as the one that created the universe while ignoring every other religion's claims.

    Now take most atheists' belief on how the universe came into existence, "I don't know". Seems more rational to me.

    Me too i think Religion is nonsenseI dont know would be the perfect answer.Thats why i keep an open mind


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    #35
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    TheNap wrote: »
    Me too i think Religion is nonsenseI dont know would be the perfect answer.Thats why i keep an open mind

    Keeping an open mind is good. Just don't let your brain fall out on in the process!


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    #36
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    TheNap wrote: »
    Again its a belief some people have ( not me ) that they're entitled to . I just dont know why it annoys people so much .

    You would have to ask someone who is annoyed by it then. As I pointed out it does not bother me what people believe. It does however bother me what people claim to be true in our public halls of power, education, science and so forth. If one brings claims into such arenas then one should expect people to call you on them.
    TheNap wrote: »
    Maybe if you had the answer for these people i would understand but you dont, nobody does.

    I am not sure that is a valid critique at all. In the realm of ideas and the discourse that builds around them the position of arguing against one is just as valid as the position of arguing for one. There is no onus on a person debunking claim X to present a counter claim Y.

    Whole swaths of our society are built around that fact. For example when proving a murder suspect innocent one does not have to provide a counter claim of who is guilty. It is enough to prove the person innocent.

    This notion, whether made implicitly or explicitly, that one should not attack or debunk a claim unless one has a better counter claim to replace it with is quite common in the rebuttals from theists but it is an entirely false requirement.
    TheNap wrote: »
    Maybe its because the greatest scientists in the world cant figure it out that make people believe in a 'god'.

    I think this is one of a LONG list of things that cause people to believe in god. I think there are many many reasons for it any any one believer can be due to any one or more of that list.

    But yes I think this is ONE of the reasons indeed. Many humans are built in such a way that they appear to prefer ANY answer to having no answer at all. No matter how unsubstantiated or even ridiculous the "any" answer is. So yes... wherever you have an open as yet unanswered question you will have frauds and charlatans gravitating in order to insert their own fantasies into the space provided. Hence the well known atheist V theist phrase "The God of the Gaps".
    TheNap wrote: »
    PM me when you have the answer , until then i will keep an open mind one way or the other ..

    It does not matter how "open" one keeps ones mind. If a claim is not just slightly but ENTIRELY unsubstantiated then that is not going to change. Whether your open mindedness is 1/10 or 10/10 substantiation does not magically appear.

    To be "open minded" in other words means simply being willing to change your mind in the face of new and compelling evidence. Being "open minded" has absolutely no effect AT ALL therefore is no evidence is being presented at all.


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    #37
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    TheNap wrote: »
    Me too i think Religion is nonsenseI dont know would be the perfect answer.Thats why i keep an open mind

    Like most atheists then? None of us have a closed mind on the cause of the universe as no argument can be demonstrated well enough. Most atheists will answer with "I don't know". That's as open a mind as you can have. If you want to cajole people with close minds you should be in the Christian or Islam forum. They KNOW how the universe came into existence.

    Now that doesn't mean we're not going to point out logical flaws in hypotheses put forth by people whether they are religious ones or not. That is all part of the search for the truth.


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    #38
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Like most atheists then? None of us have a closed mind on the cause of the universe as no argument can be demonstrated well enough.

    On that point, it might be worth mentioning, in case the OP has been hearing of and basing view on different definitions of the word, that atheism is a lack of belief in God as opposed to knowing God doesn't exist. So you can be completely in the "I don't know" camp and very much open minded to the idea of a God existing and still technically be an atheist.


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    #39
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    TheNap wrote: »
    Yes Religion is nonsense i agree with you . Belief in a higher being not so much though imo

    Belief in a high being based on the idea that we need something to explain the non-intelligent universe is illogical.

    Or to put it another way, if you find it easy to imagine that an all powerful intelligence, capable of creating the universe, can just exist then it should be in fact easier to simply imagine the universe just exists, since by definition any being capable of constructing and organizing the universe would be more complex and more unlikely than the universe itself.


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    #40
    TheNap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭TheNap


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Like most atheists then? None of us have a closed mind on the cause of the universe as no argument can be demonstrated well enough. Most atheists will answer with "I don't know". That's as open a mind as you can have. If you want to cajole people with close minds you should be in the Christian or Islam forum. They KNOW how the universe came into existence.

    Now that doesn't mean we're not going to point out logical flaws in hypotheses put forth by people whether they are religious ones or not. That is all part of the search for the truth.

    Why would i go to a Christian or Islam forum ? When did i mention i wanted to cajole peoples mind ? As i said i am not Religious ..Nor would i be strictly Athiest.I have an open mind . And thats the way it will stay


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    #41
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    TheNap wrote: »
    Why would i go to a Christian or Islam forum ? When did i mention i wanted to cajole peoples mind ? As i said i am not Religious ..Nor would i be strictly Athiest.I have an open mind . And thats the way it will stay


    How would being an atheist prevent you from having an open mind?


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    #42
    TheNap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭TheNap


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    How would being an atheist prevent you from having an open mind?

    If you look closely you will see a full stop between them sentences as they were 2 seperate points about myself. I never said you cant be an Athiest and have an open mind.


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    #43
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Galvasean wrote: »
    . So you can be completely in the "I don't know" camp and very much open minded to the idea of a God existing and still technically be an atheist.
    TheNap wrote: »
    .Nor would i be strictly Athiest.I have an open mind .
    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    How would being an atheist prevent you from having an open mind?

    Why nobody listen to Galvasean? :(


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    #44
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    TheNap wrote: »
    Why would i go to a Christian or Islam forum ? When did i mention i wanted to cajole peoples mind ? As i said i am not Religious ..Nor would i be strictly Athiest.I have an open mind . And thats the way it will stay

    Because you seem to have a problem with people having a closed mind and yet you are on the one forum between the 3 where people are not claiming to know how the universe did or didn't come into existence.

    Also if you are not an atheist are you a theist? :confused:


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    #45
    TheNap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭TheNap


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Why nobody listen to Galvasean? :(

    I did . He hit the nail on the head


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    #46
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    TheNap wrote: »
    I did . He hit the nail on the head

    So this stems from a misunderstanding of the term "atheist" on your part?


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    #47
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    TheNap wrote: »
    If you look closely you will see a full stop between them sentences as they were 2 seperate points about myself. I never said you cant be an Athiest and have an open mind.

    If that's the case then what is it about the term atheist that you would rather distance yourself from?


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    #48
    TheNap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭TheNap


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Because you seem to have a problem with people having a closed mind and yet you are on the one forum between the 3 where people are not claiming to know how the universe did or didn't come into existence.

    Also if you are not an atheist are you a theist? :confused:

    I dont know either . I have already said Religion is nonsense why would i post on their forum ?


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    #49
    TheNap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭TheNap


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    So this stems from a misunderstanding of the term "atheist" on your part?

    Well considering i stated my beliefs in a previous comment and asked what category i would fall into did it not occur to you i didnt have a great understanding when it came to the subject ? By the by i was told i wasnt Athiest . I'll accept the fact that i am now thanks


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    #50
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    TheNap wrote: »
    Well considering i stated my beliefs in a previous comment and asked what category i would fall into did it not occur to you i didnt have a great understanding when it came to the subject ? By the by i was told i wasnt Athiest . I'll accept the fact that i am now thanks

    Don't believe there is a God/are Gods = Atheist. Simple as that.


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    #51
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Q: What does being an atheist imply about your beliefs on the origin of the universe?

    A: Simply that it wasn't created by a god as described by any religion.

    Nothing more. :)


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    #52
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Don't believe there is a God/are Gods = Atheist. Simple as that.

    FWIW, it's not people's fault for not knowing that. There are a lot of *groups* out there who like to purposely attach all sorts of falsehoods to the term 'atheism' in a purposeful attempt to make it seem less reasonable as a position.


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    #53
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Penn wrote: »
    Please, it's obviously Bipolar Magnetic Reversal Theory

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FyUGusdIwE

    "... reversal ..." is going to be my new explanation for everything.:p


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    #54
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Galvasean wrote: »
    FWIW, it's not people's fault for not knowing that. There are a lot of *groups* out there who like to purposely attach all sorts of falsehoods to the term 'atheism' in a purposeful attempt to make it seem less reasonable as a position.
    There's a few atheist groups guilty of making associations in people's minds too.

    :pac: +


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    #55
    TherapyBoy
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,312 Mod ✭✭✭✭TherapyBoy


    Something happened then God existed

    Or

    Something happened then the universe existed

    We don't know enough to explain more than that at the moment. I don't believe in God or organised religion.

    Moderator: Non Drinkers Group & Grand Theft Auto



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    #56
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    But I don't believe in the Big Bang, though. It's an interesting Theory, but if it was proven wrong tomorrow, I would go "that's interesting" and move on to the next theory.

    I see this "false equivalence" all the time - talk of science as another "belief system". But how can you believe in it, absolutely, when it's always tentative, always "on probation", never seen as 100% settled? Even scientific "laws" aren't really laws in any absolute sense, they're just called that for convenience because they've been reliable.

    I don't belittle people - at least not intentionally. I do belittle their beliefs, though, and that's part of the problem, I think. If you are so strongly wedded to your beliefs that you read an attack on them as an attack on you, that's not my problem - it's yours. The alternative is to censor myself, and keep quiet about your crackpot beliefs and the harm they cause, just because you can't even try to view them objectively. It's not personal, you are not your beliefs - are you?

    Draw a cartoon of the "prophet" Mohammed, it can get you killed. Meanwhile, The Big Bang Theory is the name of a popular sitcom in which they make fun of socially-awkward scientists and science - and scientists not only enjoy it, some guest-star on it and make fun of themselves. See the difference? If you can't laugh about these things, you're going to spend your life getting offended for no good reason.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3DlNZRAlms

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #57
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    My favourite comment about the big bang came from, I think, someone on this forum, though I forget who. Along the lines of: Time itself came into being with the big bang, so in essence, the universe has always existed - or, to put it more eloquently; there has never been a point in time in which the universe did not exist.

    My own conceit on the topic: "Cause", by definition, is dependent on time: That which preceded and instigated this. If time came into being at the moment of the big bang then there cannot, by definition, be a cause.


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    #58
    kiffer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    TheNap wrote: »

    If you look closely you will see a full stop between them sentences as they were 2 seperate points about myself. I never said you cant be an Athiest and have an open mind.

    *delurk*
    I'm sorry... I don't want to be a grammar/punctuation Nazi but you seem to be a bit liberal with how you are using your fullstops.
    It's not surprising that people had a little trouble with the post.
    Everytime you put a space before a punctuation mark the unknown unknowable prime mover of unknowable intent destroyes a village of gerbils that ride around mounted on chinchillas. They have little saddles and they joust using chopsticks and there's a little gerbil princess.

    Anyway... slightly more on topic.
    What do we know or can assume with a fair degree of certainty?
    The universe exists at the moment.
    All our measurements and maths lead us back to some sort of timespace singularity 15 odd billion years ago.
    What happened before that?
    We don't know.
    That doesn't mean you can jam in what ever you like at the start of time.
    Why would people assume that they can just make things up and claim they are true and not get called on it?
    Assuming your causeless cause, your unmoved prime mover has a conscious mind is just totally arbitrary.
    Unless there is a logical reason to assume otherwise... if there is I guess I'd like to hear it.


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    #59
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    The most insidious trick in the religious brain-washing of our children is the first question posed in religious class: "Who made the world?" From this deceitful question with its build-in answers flows all the ignorance of our society.


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    #60
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Banbh wrote: »
    The most insidious trick in the religious brain-washing of our children is the first question posed in religious class: "Who made the world?" From this deceitful question with its build-in answers flows all the ignorance of our society.

    Indeed. "Who made the word" clearly alludes to someone making it. "How did the world come to be as it is now?" is a lot less leading.


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    #61
    General Relativity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭General Relativity


    bnt wrote: »
    But I don't believe in the Big Bang, though. It's an interesting Theory, but if it was proven wrong tomorrow, I would go "that's interesting" and move on to the next theory.

    This.

    Everyone who I've ever heard say 'I don't belive in science' I've asked them; Do you keep your food in the refrigerator? They always say yes...


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