A quick question re the Big Bang

TheNap · 06-12-2012 1:31pm #1

Im not religious..I wouldnt really class myself as an Athiest either ..An Athiest would ask a believer of God 'Who created God' and they would have no logical explanation . The Athiest would look down on the Religious person as being quite stupid to have such beliefs . Now if someone told me all about the Big Bang . I could ask who created such and such a thing until there is no logical explanation .. Why dont people just accept there is no logical explanation for why we are here and allow people to have their own beliefs without having to try belittle them.. Mini rant over !!

oldrnwisr · 06-12-2012 1:50pm

TheNap wrote: »

Im not religious..I wouldnt really class myself as an Athiest either ..An Athiest would ask a believer of God 'Who created God' and they would have no logical explanation . The Athiest would look down on the Religious person as being quite stupid to have such beliefs . Now if someone told me all about the Big Bang . I could ask who created such and such a thing until there is no logical explanation .. Why dont people just accept there is no logical explanation for why we are here and allow people to have their own beliefs without having to try belittle them.. Mini rant over !!

The thing about the Big Bang is that our current scientific understanding hasn't progressed to the point that we can describe the events at the Big Bang. Our current physics breaks down at Planck time (~10^-43 seconds) after the big bang. Until we have a quantum theory of gravity we will have a gap in our knowledge. This means that the only honest answer to questions like what created the big bang is I don't know.

Therein lies the difference between atheists and believers. An atheist is perfectly happy to say I don't know whereas a believer decides to fill the gap in our knowledge by labelling it God.

Put simply we have several different theories to explain what could have caused the big bang. However it is currently unknown when or if we will ever be able to gather evidence to suggest which if any theory is correct. So rather than claiming to know what nobody can possibly know, the only rational response is atheism (IMHO).

robindch · 06-12-2012 1:52pm

TheNap wrote: »

An Athiest would ask a believer of God 'Who created God' and they would have no logical explanation

That's not the issue here.

When arguing about the "beginning" of the universe, religious people will say "everything needs a cause", but then claim that their particular deity doesn't need one. In a debate, applying a rule to other people that one isn't prepared to apply to oneself isn't just silly, but it's a little bit dishonest too and it's not "belittling" people to point that out.

.

doctoremma · 06-12-2012 1:54pm

TheNap wrote: »

The Athiest would look down on the Religious person as being quite stupid to have such beliefs.

I don't necessarily think any religious person is stupid, I think that a single particular belief they hold is stupid.

And I'm sure many people can identify beliefs that I hold that they consider stupid.

TheNap wrote: »

I could ask who created such and such a thing until there is no logical explanation ..

Turtles all the way down?

TheNap · 06-12-2012 1:59pm

I think the concept of Religion that some people believe in is nonsense.I believe in The Bing Bang.. 'Turtles all the way down' theory still make me believe that there is still a greater being. Everything had to be created from somewhere right ?Does this make me Religious person or an Athiest ? I never really know what to say when asked

oldrnwisr · 06-12-2012 2:04pm

TheNap wrote: »

I believe in The Bing Bang.. 'Turtles all the way down' theory still make me believe that there is still a greater being.

Why? (particularly the bold section)

TheNap wrote: »

Everything had to be created from somewhere right ?

In a word, no.

Naz_st · 06-12-2012 2:06pm

TheNap wrote: »

An Athiest would ask a believer of God 'Who created God'

Most atheists I know wouldn't ask anyone anything about religion. They are usually the ones asked, by the religious.

The Athiest would look down on the Religious person as being quite stupid to have such beliefs.

Not really. I wouldn't class Deism (which is what you seem to be referring) as "stupid". Unnecessary maybe. But that's not the "religious" belief in and of itself (I know plenty of non-religious deists). Some specific beliefs though, like by munching on a wafer in a church on a Sunday morning you are cannibalising the flesh of a 2000 year old dead man who was also his own father, can only be seen as silly surely? I mean, most catholics don't even believe that!

Now if someone told me all about the Big Bang . I could ask who created such and such a thing until there is no logical explanation

"We don't know (yet)" is always a reasonable answer, no?

Why dont people just accept there is no logical explanation for why we are here and allow people to have their own beliefs without having to try belittle them..

Due to the Catholic church controlling >90% of schools in this country, a lot of atheists are forced to send their kids to religious schools (and baptise their kids just to get in). If religion in general and Catholicism in particular weren't so pervasive in society (to the detriment of the rights of the non-religious), I doubt you'd hear atheists talk much about their beliefs at all.

King Mob · 06-12-2012 2:07pm

TheNap wrote: »

I think the concept of Religion that some people believe in is nonsense.I believe in The Bing Bang.. 'Turtles all the way down' theory still make me believe that there is still a greater being. Everything had to be created from somewhere right ?Does this make me Religious person or an Athiest ? I never really know what to say when asked

And this just begs the question that you don't like.
If everything had to be created from somewhere, who or what created the creator which you are positing? Can some things exist without being created?

And what exactly are you basing your insistence that everything must be created on? How do you know this?

TheNap · 06-12-2012 2:13pm

King Mob wrote: »

And this just begs the question that you don't like.
If everything had to be created from somewhere, who or what created the creator which you are positing? Can some things exist without being created?

And what exactly are you basing your insistence that everything must be created on? How do you know this?

Again please excuse my ignorance. But if something wasnt created , where did it come from ?

Knasher · 06-12-2012 2:14pm

TheNap wrote: »

I think the concept of Religion that some people believe in is nonsense.I believe in The Bing Bang.. 'Turtles all the way down' theory still make me believe that there is still a greater being. Everything had to be created from somewhere right ?Does this make me Religious person or an Athiest ? I never really know what to say when asked

That would probably make you a Deist.

King Mob · 06-12-2012 2:17pm

TheNap wrote: »

Again please excuse my ignorance. But if something wasnt created , where did it come from ?

Why not from nothing? Why not arising spontaneously? Why not from a continuous and infinite cycle? Why can't it have always existed in some sense?

Again, why are you assuming everything must have a cause?

And if everything must have a cause, what caused the creator you are positing?
Is he able to exist without a cause?

EuropeanSon · 06-12-2012 2:19pm

TheNap wrote: »

Again please excuse my ignorance. But if something wasnt created , where did it come from ?

I think the idea is that it didn't "come from" anything, but was "always" there, the quotation marks being used to indicate the inherent vagueness of those terms.

Knasher · 06-12-2012 2:20pm

TheNap wrote: »

Again please excuse my ignorance. But if something wasnt created , where did it come from ?

My money is on quantum vacuum fluctuations

TheNap · 06-12-2012 2:21pm

King Mob wrote: »

Why not from nothing? Why not arising spontaneously? Why not from a continuous and infinite cycle? Why can't it have always existed in some sense?

Again, why are you assuming everything must have a cause?

And if everything must have a cause, what caused the creator you are positing?
Is he able to exist without a cause?

I really dont know why you're getting so worked up over this.. But surely this argument could be used by Catholics too ?

TheNap · 06-12-2012 2:26pm

EuropeanSon wrote: »

I think the idea is that it didn't "come from" anything, but was "always" there, the quotation marks being used to indicate the inherent vagueness of those terms.

Yeah have to agree with you there

King Mob · 06-12-2012 2:31pm

TheNap wrote: »

I really dont know why you're getting so worked up over this..

I'm not getting worked up over anything. I'm just pointing out the very obvious fact that your central assertion is unsupportable therefore your entire argument is invalid.

Again, why are you assuming that everything must have a cause and why is the creator exempt from that rule?

TheNap wrote: »

But surely this argument could be used by Catholics too ?

Not really as the only version of the argument they can use is the self contradictory one.
All of the points I used can apply to the big bang. So throwing God in as an explanation is unnecessary.
Therefore to exclude a naturalistic explanation, catholics and folks like yourself must add the completely arbitrary and unfounded insistence that all things need a cause. Which then of course contradicts itself if you are also claiming that god exists without a cause.

So to effectively wedge god in as an explanation you must explain first how you know that everything needs a cause (which you can't) and then explain how God can violate that rule without the same being true for a naturalistic explanation (which again, you can't).

TheNap · 06-12-2012 2:41pm

As i said i dont really have strong views either way.. However points you are making can be used in counter arguments thats all im trying to say .You said what does everything need to have been created and why cant it always have been there ? My response was to say Catholics could use this logic when referring to 'God'.

TheNap · 06-12-2012 2:43pm

I'm not getting worked up over anything. I'm just pointing out the very obvious fact that your central assertion is unsupportable therefore your entire argument is invalid..............................................................Im pretty sure saying not everything has to be created and could just be there is unsupportable too . Does this mean your assertion is also invalid ?

King Mob · 06-12-2012 2:48pm

TheNap wrote: »

As i said i dont really have strong views either way.. However points you are making can be used in counter arguments thats all im trying to say .You said what does everything need to have been created and why cant it always have been there ? My response was to say Catholics could use this logic when referring to 'God'.

And as I explained they can't.

If they are claiming that God can exist without a cause, then the next question is: why does this not apply to the universe?
If the universe can exist without the need for a cause, then why do we need God as part of the explanation?

This is why you are trying to argue for the unsupported and arbitrary rule that everything must have a cause (except god), because you can't provide answers to those questions.

TheNap wrote: »

Im pretty sure saying not everything has to be created and could just be there is unsupportable too . Does this mean your assertion is also invalid ?

But I'm not making that claim. I do not have enough information to conclude whether everything needs a cause or the reverse. It's possible that every could require a cause, but I have yet to see anything to make me think that is true. And since you are trying the "well so are you" tactic instead of backing up the assertion, I doubt you'll be providing anything convincing.

nozzferrahhtoo · 06-12-2012 2:52pm

TheNap wrote: »

The Athiest would look down on the Religious person as being quite stupid to have such beliefs

I am quite sure some do but not all. Not even most in my experience anyway, though that is purely anecdotal. People like me recognize a difference between "X is stupid" and "The idea X holds is stupid". For example I recognize that Newton was one of the most intelligent people our species has ever produced. He subscribed to some seriously stupid and bizarre ideas though.

I do not judge the people who hold beliefs in other words, just the beliefs themselves.

TheNap wrote: »

Why dont people just accept there is no logical explanation for why we are here and allow people to have their own beliefs without having to try belittle them.. Mini rant over !!

We are all human and we are all in a universe the existence of which currently has no known explanation. That is really all we know to be true here.

What we have is many scientists trying to find an explanation. We also have many theists declaring we already have one.

My issue with the latter group is that their claims... such as the existence of god.... are entirely unsubstantiated.

Now I with you to a point, I have no care in the world about what people believe. If they kept their personal faith personal and simply believed it they would have no issues with me. If they want to think there is a god and that it explains the universe so be it.

The problem with the live and let live attitude however is that these beliefs do not simply stop there as personal faith but spill out into society and into our halls of power, education, ethics and science. THERE I will not live and let live and will resist such ideas as I will resist all unsubstantiated claims that enter those arena.

TheNap · 06-12-2012 2:53pm

King Mob wrote: »

And as I explained they can't.

If they are claiming that God can exist without a cause, then the next question is: why does this not apply to the universe?
If the universe can exist without the need for a cause, then why do we need God as part of the explanation?

This is why you are trying to argue for the unsupported and arbitrary rule that everything must have a cause (except god), because you can't provide answers to those questions.

Because they are their beliefs ? They are entitled to them... Like you are with yours. Both cant be proven like my original point

King Mob · 06-12-2012 2:59pm

TheNap wrote: »

Because they are their beliefs ? They are entitled to them... Like you are with yours.

Yes, they are beliefs. But they are inconsistent, illogical, self contradictory and dishonest.
Am I not allowed to express my supportable opinion on this?

And can I take it since you didn't address the questions that you cannot provide answers to them?
If this is the case, why then do you think that a creator is required?

TheNap wrote: »

Both cant be proven like my original point

Again, this is another unsupported assertion.
They can't be proven yet.

The other important distinction is my position makes sense and does not lead into logical holes.

TheNap · 06-12-2012 3:01pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I am quite sure some do but not all. Not even most in my experience anyway, though that is purely anecdotal. People like me recognize a difference between "X is stupid" and "The idea X holds is stupid". For example I recognize that Newton was one of the most intelligent people our species has ever produced. He subscribed to some seriously stupid and bizarre ideas though.

I do not judge the people who hold beliefs in other words, just the beliefs themselves.

We are all human and we are all in a universe the existence of which currently has no known explanation. That is really all we know to be true here.

What we have is many scientists trying to find an explanation. We also have many theists declaring we already have one.

My issue with the latter group is that their claims... such as the existence of god.... are entirely unsubstantiated.

Now I with you to a point, I have no care in the world about what people believe. If they kept their personal faith personal and simply believed it they would have no issues with me. If they want to think there is a god and that it explains the universe so be it.

The problem with the live and let live attitude however is that these beliefs do not simply stop there as personal faith but spill out into society and into our halls of power, education, ethics and science. THERE I will not live and let live and will resist such ideas as I will resist all unsubstantiated claims that enter those arena.

Nicely put

TheNap · 06-12-2012 3:09pm

Yes Religion is nonsense i agree with you . Belief in a higher being not so much though imo .One question . You are quick to point to unsupportable beliefs .Instead of asking me why something has to be created, why dont you ask yourself why something doesnt have to be created.And is your answer unsupportable ?

Scioch · 06-12-2012 3:14pm

TheNap wrote: »

Why dont people just accept there is no logical explanation for why we are here and allow people to have their own beliefs without having to try belittle them.. Mini rant over !!

People do accept there is no logical explanation, they are called atheists. We are all free to believe what we want but you cannot believe something for no reason and expect other people to respect that belief. They might respect your right to believe it but they will never respect the belief itself.

And in the case of so many religions which exert influence on certain aspects of society those beliefs will be scrutinised and ridiculed as they go beyond just a personal belief. If people want to believe nonsense then they can, but that doesnt mean that nonsense should be given credence by others.

Tar.Aldarion · 06-12-2012 3:16pm

oldrnwisr wrote: »

The thing about the Big Bang is that our current scientific understanding hasn't progressed to the point that we can describe the events at the Big Bang. Our current physics breaks down at Planck time (~10^-43 seconds) after the big bang. Until we have a quantum theory of gravity we will have a gap in our knowledge. This means that the only honest answer to questions like what created the big bang is I don't know.

Something people don't usually realise is that the big bang lasted 400, 000 years and that is when we see back to.

Anyway OP, There wasn't 'nothing' before the Big Bang, because there wasn't any before. Time is a property of our universe, a dimension. So you can't say anything was created, because that requires a change of state, when there was none.

To borrow an analogy. Imagine that you want to make a long trip and decide to always go north. It's easy: you know how to use a compass, you just have to follow this direction. But then you reach the North Pole. Some people have warned you that the concept of "north" is a bit singular there. Your compass isn't indicating anything useful anymore. You can ask the friendly polar bear there in which direction is north: he will answer that your question is meaningless, that all directions are south, north ceases to exist at this point.
Here it's the same thing, except north is "past", south is "future", the Earth is spacetime and there are no polar bears.

King Mob · 06-12-2012 3:17pm

TheNap wrote: »

Yes Religion is nonsense i agree with you . Belief in a higher being not so much though imo .

But why, I've pointed to several questions that you cannot answer.
The universe can exist without a cause as much as god can and you cannot explain why this can't be so.
So why believe in a creator when there is no evidence or need of him to explain anything?

TheNap wrote: »

One question . You are quick to point to unsupportable beliefs .Instead of asking me why something has to be created,

Again, a question you can't answer.

TheNap wrote: »

why dont you ask yourself why something doesnt have to be created.And is your answer unsupportable ?

And again, I've explained this in a previous point.
The are other possible ways things can exist without being caused (even with the vague definitions of the words). So unless you can show that these other possibilities are not possible, they will continued to be considered possible.
And until you support your insistence that everything must have a cause, it's going to remain unsupported.

nozzferrahhtoo · 06-12-2012 3:19pm

TheNap wrote: »

Instead of asking me why something has to be created, why dont you ask yourself why something doesnt have to be created.And is your answer unsupportable ?

I am not sure the point the user(s) were making is that one answer is supportable while the other one is not.

I think the issue for many here is that when it comes to the conversation about "Big Bang" and "First Cause" that there seems to be an inherent assumption our species make that "nothing" is the default and hence all the "something" is what must be explained.

But is that assumption safe? Why do we so naturally assume "nothing" is the default state? Why is it not just as valid to consider "something" as being the default and hence it is why there should be "nothing" that requires the explanation.

It brings me back to my first post above.... all we really know is that we are in a universe. How and why is still an open question and we should not make any assumptions while trying to answer those questions. Whether "all this" comes from nothing somehow or an eternal something... that is what we have to find out.

What we certainly can not do (as one user already pointed out to you) is assume that everything must come from something and then invent a "god" and declare by fiat that this god terminates that infinite regress and is magically immune to the requirement we are applying to everyone else.

The simply fact is that whatever the explanation for our universe and our presence in it... there is simply no arguments, data, evidences or reasoning on offer AT ALL to lend even a modicum of credence to the idea that the answer is a non human intelligence which designed and then produced the universe.

That some people believe it anyway in the face of the lack of ANYTHING to lend it credence remains an intriguing mystery.

Sarky · 06-12-2012 3:20pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

For example I recognize that Newton was one of the most intelligent people our species has ever produced. He subscribed to some seriously stupid and bizarre ideas though.

Dude was crazy, yo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton's_occult_studies