2 Very Different Stove Requests

jimjimt

A stove with a boiler is far more efficient than a traditional back boiler in a fireplace. No competition at all. No matter what you do.

If it was my money being spent it would be bells and whistle stove with boiler for my house or Firebird new high efficiency Troy back boiler

Boru Doras or Mulberry Stoker for the tenant.

cormie

Hmm, you've confused me even further now. So jimjimt is saying that a stove with boiler would be far more efficient than an open fire heating the boiler for heating the house (so radiator temperature etc). This seems to go against what sooty soupy and the stove man say and they sell/fit stoves so it's in their interest to be promoting stoves as opposed to saying I'd be better off without one for the boiler/Stove 1 request

TPM

jimjimt wrote: »

A stove with a boiler is far more efficient than a traditional back boiler in a fireplace. No competition at all. No matter what you do.

If it was my money being spent it would be bells and whistle stove with boiler for my house or Firebird new high efficiency Troy back boiler

Boru Doras or Mulberry Stoker for the tenant.

cormie wrote: »

Hmm, you've confused me even further now. So jimjimt is saying that a stove with boiler would be far more efficient than an open fire heating the boiler for heating the house (so radiator temperature etc). This seems to go against what sooty soupy and the stove man say and they sell/fit stoves so it's in their interest to be promoting stoves as opposed to saying I'd be better off without one for the boiler/Stove 1 request

I would agree with jimjimt a stove with a boiler will beat a back boiler for efficiency

A stove for room heat only will probably be more economical to run than a boiler stove as you are dealing with a far smaller heat requirement.

A major consideration of the viability of fitting stoves is the overall cost of the installation.
If a stove cost €1800 and a further €1200 to install you are €3000 down before you start burning fuel which will probably be more expensive than oil.

Another option would be to buy a tank of oil put the remaining €2000 in a jar, now each day instead of buying coal/sticks/turf/briquets put €5-€10 euro in the jar.
when you need oil raid the jar.
How long would it take for the jar to be empty?

jimjimt

I have being fitting back boilers, stove boilers, solid fuel appliances etc for over 22 years.
I have taken out plenty of back boilers and replaced with stove boilers.

I have yet to take out a stove boiler and replace with a back boiler. Not even requested ever never.

If back boilers were more efficient their would be no Stove Shops but Back Boiler Shops


Oil v solid fuel....... Oil is still number one for heating a house in full, even at current prices.

Carbon tax will keep increasing on coal and other solid fuels. No choice if emission targets have to be met.

Listen to TPM he makes a good suggestion on putting money a side for oil.

Or you can do like me go Wood Pellet to heat the house in full and currently half the cost of oil

cormie

Ah now I'm even more confused Adding oil to the equation? Thanks again for all the details. Now I'm not even sure if a stove is the best option to go with with the budget?



That's a very similar style house to where stove 1 was intended for (same estate found on daft). It's 91sq meters, semi detatched.

downstairs:
hall - double radiator
kitchen - double radiator
living room - open fire, no radiator

upstairs:
landing - no radiator
box room 1 - no radiator
box room 2 - no radiator
room 3 - double radiator
room 4 - double radiator
bathroom - double radiator

ah so only 5 radiators, not 6 I first mentioned. The house is currently only heated by the open fire which in turn heats the back boiler giving heat to the radiators.

Insulation in the attic was recently redone and there was a notable difference in heat retention.

The house is about 30 years old and still has the original single glazed windows. The back of the house looks pretty much identical window wise to the front plus there is a small bathroom window on the side.

There is no oil or gas in the house at all.

The owner LOVES the open fire and wouldn't like to stop using it (this includes a stove of course).

What would be the best place to start in terms of keeping the house warm and saving money long term?

TPM

cormie wrote: »

What would be the best place to start in terms of keeping the house warm and saving money long term?

Insulation first, always. you say the attic was redone have to ask if it was done properly, walls will need to be looked at too, then look at the windows.

The most efficient way to heat a house is by keeping the heat in.


the more information you give the more suggestions you will get.

cormie wrote: »

There is no oil or gas in the house at all.

The owner LOVES the open fire and wouldn't like to stop using it (this includes a stove of course).

I would look into the cost of fitting gas or oil, this way the owner will use the back boiler with no additional expectations from it, and be able to boost with the oil or gas, plus the fact with the time clock they will be able to have heat/hot water with out lighting the fire

jimjimt

If your radiators are thirty years old a new stove will not do them much justice.

Also you could do with more rads for the box rooms.

Money better spent on insulation,windows and new radiators come heating system.

You have a bit of budgeting and long term planning to do.

cormie

More rads in the box rooms has been considered alright and I actually picked up two radiators one small and one double a few months ago but they haven't been installed yet.

Seems like the stove would be last on the list of priorities for a warmer home but the initial idea was to put money towards one as a gift. Insulation and radiators don't really make such a nice gift, especially for someone who loves a real fire lighting.

If money were no object (including fuel as although gas and oil may be cheaper, solid fuel for a real fire would definitely be preferred), if I'm understanding correctly, by order of importance you're talking:

(1) Attic and wall insulation
(2) Windows
(3) Replace 30 year old radiators with newer ones and fit two more in box rooms
(4a) Replace back boiler with stove and new back boiler
(4b) Use Boru Doras fire door to heat existing back boiler and control fuel usage a bit better

Can oil or gas be used in conjunction with options 4a/b or is it either oil/gas or solid fuel?

I'm guessing to do everything you're talking the guts of 20K?

sooty_soupy

Personally I would get oil or gas in to give you the warmth in the rads when required. Fit thermostatic valves to the rads as well, so they only call for heat when the stove isn't working as hard. Get rid of the back boiler in the fireplace that is trying to drive radiators and put in a good quality stove into the room which will be ideal for keeping the family/living areas nice and cosy. Because you will then be stopping heat loss through the flue, which is crippling the house at the moment, you will find the oil or gas is doing less work when working in conjunction with the stove. If you are going to be using a lot of hot water, for power showers as opposed to electric,or regular baths, then perhaps a domestic boiler in the stove will reduce the oil/gas bill further, but if you envisage using very little hot water, i.e very rarely using a bath, having and electric shower and having a washing machine and dishwasher, then I wouldn't waste money and fuel on the domestic boiler.

I would also select a stove that can have an external air kit fitted to it, so it can take the air it needs to burn safely directly into the stove from outside, such as the Clearview stoves. This will reduce unpleasant draughts in the house and you may find you don't need to replace the windows just yet. An open fire is nice to look at, but that is where the benefit ends. A Clearview stove is double glazed and will stay a lot cleaner than many other stoves on the market that claim to have the airwash system, so you will have the focal point you desire, and the efficiency and control of a high end stove.

The open fire needs on average 60m3 of air each hour whether is it is lit or not, and guess where it pulls that air from…that's right.. your home…and takes all the precious heat with it, while pulling cold air into the home from outside to replace the air being drawn up the chimney. Have you ever sat and wondered why your house drops in temperature as soon as the heating is switched off or the fire goes out. An open fire can replace the air in your entire home every 10 minutes.

An interesting issue I have come across with these fire front units you are being recommended is that the open fire boiler often struggles to heat the radiators at the best of time, and when it does succeed it has burnt through a tremendous amount of fuel. Now lets stick a farce of a door over the front of the fireplace and give you some more control, and watch what happens to your radiator temperature. Luke warm is about as good as it is getting. Also you need to be very careful about the front face units, as they can have an adverse affect on the fuel consumption. Lets think about a cold damp day with very little air movement outside. Now if we try to light the open fire, hands up how many people have held a sheet of newspaper in front of the fireplace to force the draught. Well this is just what happens to these front face units, as making them airtight to the fireplace is not easy, and certainly not long term. The cheaper stoves held together by fire cement do the same thing, when the very same product used to make it airtight, turns to dust and causes over burn. Increased fuel consumption, and more spare parts for the "efficient" stove.

Interestingly one manufacturer tells us in the instructions that the facing unit needs taken out every time the chimney needs swept. Are they having a laugh? I train and represent the registered chimney sweeps here in the North, and we will condemn these kinds of units. There MUST be access into the appliance for sweeping and maintenance without the need to dismantle and take out appliances. Sweeps are not going to take on the responsibility to re-fit such an appliance and exonerate the "installer" for the sake of £30-£40

Just do your homework before you plump for an expensive mistake. The windows can be done anytime, the insulation can be bulked out anytime, but every day that goes by with an open fire it is costing you a fortune. Up to 90% of the heat from an open fire goes up the chimney. If I was to offer you a heating appliance that is a mere 10% efficient, would you go for it? There is a reason why fireplace shops are selling stoves. Fireplace fitters needed to use a spirt level, drill and screw driver, and mix cement. They didn't need to know anything about chimneys, flues or the science of how they work. This is what I have done for years, and it frustrates the hell out of me when unsuspecting members of the public are being used as Guinea Pigs by box movers North and South. Bear in mind I am a chimney sweep through and through. I have been the one sitting on the hearth talking to thousands of people for over 23 years, learning what has worked, what has been a success and what has been an expensive disaster. I have come into the industry from a different perspective than someone just opening up a shop and selling stoves because they are the in thing to be at. I have been to houses after major fires, on behalf of insurance companies, been asked to get involved where carbon monoxide has claimed lives, given seminars on flues and chimney issues. I've been in court as an expert witness too many times and to be honest some of the things I have seen being done by "professionals" is nothing short of disgraceful. Your best line of defence is to download document J in the South and technical booklet L in the North and make sure it is followed to the letter by anyone you employ to fit a new appliance. Arm yourself with as much information as you can, speak to technical services of the manufacturer you choose to go with and buy from a company that the manufacturer recommends as their authorised agents, rather than a box mover that couldn't give a s**t about you, your stove, your family or property. There is more to life than the pound or euro, there is doing the right thing for the person standing in front of you at that point in time, getting it right and being proud to do so.

I'm off the soap box now, and going to bed.

Good luck

cormie

Wow, that's some post there sooty!

It's also a good point to tackle what's eating the most money first, which I guess is the fuel for the open fire. If this can be lowered, then it would be easier to then save up for the rest.

How much would an oil/gas installation cost and would oil or gas be better? I'm not sure if the home owner likes the idea of gas but I don't think they'd like the idea of a big oil tank in the back either, so I'm not sure which would be the best option? Cost of installation and cost of fuel both now and in the future is of course a concern too.

I think if the addition of a boiler to the stove would be a lot cheaper than the installation of oil/gas, then it might be best to do this first, then maybe later install oil/gas to manage the radiators.

Baths wouldn't be used so much but the electric shower and washing machine would be. I thought the idea of an electric shower was that it heats the water itself so doesn't rely on the water tank being hot, so wouldn't be effected by the oil/gas/boiler? Also with the washing machine having its own heating element and I think most modern day ones only have a "cold" inlet for water and heat the water internally?

That's interesting about the air usage. I never thought of that and I can see why people stuff their chimneys if they aren't using the open fire now You certainly make the Clearview stoves sound like they are worth the extra investment. I might pop into Bells when I get the chance and see them in action.

So the Clearview stoves will pretty much work independently of the house its in so it's getting the air from outside and exhaling through the flue and will give immediate savings on solid fuel such as coal and won't be sucking all the warm air through the house meaning insulation and windows can be looked at later on as opposed to immediately as with an open fire going or unlit, it will still be replacing all the warm air?

sooty_soupy

OK so to clarify, you are correct that electric showers, washing machines and dishwashers take cold feeds in, so heating a cylinder of hot water and using more fuel on the stove to do so, when you are not using the water each day is wasteful. Forget all the crap about "if I'm burning the fuel I may as well get additional benefit from the fuel I am burning" I have heard all that before....but from open fire users. Remember you have no control over the burn rate of an open fire, so capitalising on the fuel that is burning away is advantageous. A high end stove can give you total control over the burn rate, so once the stove has done what you are asking it to do, in this case heat the living areas, well then you turn it down....what is it the meerkat says....simple.

Also remember that if you are registered for VAT in the south, we can invoice to the company, we can ship everything down with instructions for fitting and zero rate the materials, which has proved to be very helpful to many of our clients over the border. Just a thought ;-) It has been nice to get the odd sale considering the efforts we go to to help people out with sound advice. LOL

Best to you all

jimjimt

Hi Cormie,
if you take out the back boiler and install a stove to heat the room only, no boiler.

What will heat the radiators and the rest of the house?

Perhaps you can do a little house survey on your room sizes and orientation for radiator sizing and sooty can give you both options for a room heat only stove and boiler stove.

Unless of course you are going to install gas or oil at the same time.

sooty_soupy

Yes Jim is right. Although some of the contained radiant heat of a dry stove will rise up through the house, it might be advisable to sit tight with the open fire and save up enough to put in the central heating, oil or gas, I have no preference as I don't work in either field anymore, then do both projects at the same time...stove and heating.

The system would need to be drained down to get the boiler out of the fireplace anyway, so it seems sensible to deal with both projects at the same time. It is also advisable to put in thermostatic valves on the radiators, or even better to zone the house i.e upstairs rads, downstairs rads, then hot water in the cylinder separately. The best of all worlds.

Once you have done this phase of the revamp, then you can look at windows, cavity wall insulation and extra loft insulation, but the big killer with a heating system in a modern home is an open fire, but don't burn the bridges until a new bridge is ready to go in....although if you had a bridge to burn, it might be to your benefit ;-)

cormie

I still don't understand how a cold feed tap, which from what I know is separate to the hot water tank and comes directly from outside the house, going into an electrical appliance (electric shower/washing machine/dish washer) which then heats the water itself with an element powered by electricity is related to a stove/boiler?

Ideally it would be great to get oil/gas installed at the same time alright as a stove.

Any idea of the costs for such an installation and is it possible to have oil without having a big tank in the back garden? Do coal men deliver oil as well as coal so could come with a new small tank and take the old one away every so often?

So ideally it would be:

1) Oil/Gas installed with radiators modified (thermostat etc) and extra rads in box rooms, boiler drained and removed, fireplace adjusted to fit stove with boiler and both oil/gas and stove working in conjunction.
2) Insulation
3) Windows

This would give the most immediate savings considering the drop in solid fuel purchasing and would give way to easier savings for step 2 and 3.

sooty_soupy

cormie wrote: »

I still don't understand how a cold feed tap, which from what I know is separate to the hot water tank and comes directly from outside the house, going into an electrical appliance (electric shower/washing machine/dish washer) which then heats the water itself with an element powered by electricity is related to a stove/boiler?

Ideally it would be great to get oil/gas installed at the same time alright as a stove.

Any idea of the costs for such an installation and is it possible to have oil without having a big tank in the back garden? Do coal men deliver oil as well as coal so could come with a new small tank and take the old one away every so often?

So ideally it would be:

1) Oil/Gas installed with radiators modified (thermostat etc) and extra rads in box rooms, boiler drained and removed, fireplace adjusted to fit stove with boiler and both oil/gas and stove working in conjunction.
2) Insulation
3) Windows

This would give the most immediate savings considering the drop in solid fuel purchasing and would give way to easier savings for step 2 and 3.

You are still confused by what I am trying to explain. If all the appliances etc are heating the cold water feed, this is exactly why I saying a boiler stove is not right for you, but a dry stove giving plenty of controllable warmth to the living areas makes much more sense.

As far as oil tanks are concerned, a slimline tank doesn't take up too much room and would be more convenient than having a company bring smaller quantities regularly. Bulk buying is cheaper than paying for constant calls to the house.

As far as cost is concerned that depends on how much is involved. If you need a new boiler, cabinet, flue, tank, plumbing materials and electrics you could easily be looking at 6-8000 euro I would imagine but it is difficult to know without a proper site survey. If you know of any reputable heating firm that can provide references for their quality of work then get them to give you a price, and then you know where you stand.

D

cormie

Ahhhh. I get you now, I didn't read that properly above

That makes sense, yeah so no point expending extra energy from solid fuel heating water that won't be used, it would be better to have that same energy spent heating the room, which would use less fuel to just heat the room as opposed to heating the room and boiler, when a lot of the water will end up not being used.

I was just in a house there which had gas and it seems a pretty simple set up. I called bord gais, their external work will be €250 and then there is the cost of the registered gas installer to do his work and the gas boiler too of course. I think the gas may be a better idea over the oil as I've heard oil prices are going to get higher than gas and then there's no need for the tank out the back, getting deliveries, risk of it being stolen etc.

The chap with the gas said he didn't think a gas boiler and a stove boiler could be used at the same time but it seems from your post they can, unless you mean the thermostat on the radiators work on the temperature of the room itself and not on the temperature of the radiator, so using the stove downstairs would mean the radiators down stairs adjust to the heat downstairs when the stove is on?

Either way, I think that might be the best option to go for. To get gas and a general stove installed at the same time. Unless a stove boiler and gas boiler can work together and would be better long term, but from what you're saying it doesn't seem like there's any need for the stove boiler if there's gas, especially with hot water on demand from the appliances themselves being fed with the cold tap such as the electric shower, washing machine etc.

sooty_soupy

There you go..we got there in the end. A dry stove heats the living areas easily with less fuel than if it had a boiler in the stove. Thermostats on radiators or in the room detect when the stove is doing a good job and the radiators don't call for heat from the central heating.

The bedrooms and bathroom upstairs perhaps take some heat from the central heating, but often a bedroom radiator thermostatic valve is set low just to take the chill off the room rather than be bouncing off the wall with heat. A nice heated towel rail in the bathroom may be all that needs heat from the gas and you're good to go.

The reviews on www.whatstove.co.uk will mostly tell you that the Clearview is going to go a long way to keeping the house cosy all the time anyway when it is lit.

Speak soon

D

cormie

Thanks again for the input. You've definitely convinced me to go with clearview, sure the reviews speak for themselves. Better off spending a bit extra on a decent one if it's going to last and won't fall apart after a few years.

Will show the home owner this thread and see what can be planned for with their budget. I'll definitely be pushing the idea of gas and a clearview stove and the radiator thermostats too considering the radiators are 30 years old, I wonder would they be better off being replaced completely. They are all working fine so it would seem unfortunate and a waste to have to do that, especially if the thermostat thingy can control them by being retrofitted.

sooty_soupy

The rads might be grand. Sure put the valves on and see what happens. If the rads need replaced later on, then the valves are there already. I would suggest getting the system power flushed first to make sure all the crap and gunge is out of the system, and then fill using an inhibitor like Fernox to prevent clogging and black water building up in the future...sorted

jimjimt

Sounds like you got a good plan going on.

If you are going with a new gas boiler it would be best to get new rads if budget allows.
Do make sure you get your heating system flushed and clean in full before you install a new gas boiler that is a must. If not your new gas boiler will be short lived no matter what brand you choose.


I have not heard of Clearview Stoves until sooty came along.

I like the spec on their boiler stoves giving different btu's at different levels interesting... learn something new everyday.

cormie

Thanks again for the replies and help. Uh oh, is choosing a boiler going to be as complicated as it was finding out what kind of stove to get? Budget probably won't allow for new rads to be honest so hopefully old ones won't inhibit the performance too much? I don't think there's ever been a problem with the rads in the house such as clogging or black water build up so hopefully the gas boiler won't introduce any problems

If someone is a registered gas installer, can you be pretty sure you're getting the job done well or is there still a chance they could be installing cheap crap I wonder?

rugbyman

This is great, have done my head in over the years wanting to get a stove. Cormie, with your incessant searches ,I am a bit more educated.
Stove Fan ,who did not seem to get in here ,is a gem, but Sooty Soupy , you talk the talk, and are not too far from me, will call in.
Do you sell the stuff or fit it. (you may have said but I skipped bits)
if you are a fitter also , how much to survey my house in Dundalk?

Thanks
Rugbyman

Thanks also to jimjim for practical stuff

rugbyman

i called into a few stove stores in Belgium, each with over 40 stores on view.
None of them had a stove that heated radiators, only knew one one or two manufacturers who did them,
did not see much need for them, insulate house, let heat spread.
Rugbyman

cormie

Yeah, I believe this thread is a great resource for anyone in a similar situation. Packed with info, options and of course solutions.

Sooty does sell them, I found his google plus page by googling his "location" and from there you can see his website: http://www.countydownstovesandflues.co.uk/

I believe he supplies everything and can offer a fitting service too from what I know and I'm sure you'd be getting a hard to beat service along with probably the amongst the best stoves and accessories.

sooty_soupy

Ok guys here's what can happen. We can supply everything you need including flue systems. We can pallet and ship with detailed info on how the stoves are to be fitted to comply with manufacturers instructions and building regs.

If you want to send us a photograph of the fireplace you have, and a photo from the outside of the house showing heights of chimneys we can normally give you an idea of what can be achieved from that. If it is a new flue system, where you don't have a chimney, then we can look at that design for you also. If we need any other photos we can ask for them. Technology makes it easier to see your job nowadays. info@cdsf.co.uk. Please be patient as we have a lot of email and phone calls to deal with. We would prier to see you in person with the photos and we can introduce you to the range of stoves, including up to three that are burning, and show you what all the fuss is about with the only brand of stove I have ever wanted to sell…and I have worked with them all.

Alternatively we can supply and fit…within reason (distance wise) although the travel becomes a problem as you can imagine.

Most people are happy to project manage armed with the correct information in advance, knowing we are at the end of the phone if you run into any problems. Many will call to the showroom first and we have set ups to show how all goes together which makes it very easy to understand. There are many components within the system that I have personally designed and the industry has ran with them, such as pot hangers and special adapters, but you can buy them all from one place.

There is a reason that we are the only company in Northern Ireland that Clearview trust with their reputation.

Do it once…properly…or don't do it at all.

cormie

Another nice post sooty. Would have been into you today if you were local to me, but popped into Joe in Bells. Looks like the clearview inset doesn't stand a chance of fitting in my fireplace without getting rid of a good chunk of brick work but when I saw how small one of the stoves was I was very interested in the idea of just getting a free standing one, I didn't think this would have been a possibility.

It's the pioneer 400 and I think it may just about fit.



That's my fireplace and going by the dimensions in the catalogue (http://www.clearviewstoves.com/pics/stoves/pioneer400dims.gif is the same I think), I think it's going to be a very tight fit. Hopefully the inner part is ok too, I made a video of that here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyDrzd7LmWc&feature=youtu.be

There's 3 main measurements I'm concerned about.

1) 552 height from the surface of the hearth to the bottom of the brass surround. The dimensions in the brochure state the height to the top of the outlet is 556, a 4mm difference. I could probably get away with hammering the brass up a bit to make it squeeze in.

2) 603 height from the surface of the heart to the top of the brass and the bottom of the upper surround where the 37mm inlet is. The brochure states the height from the bottom of the 2" legs to the top of the flat top stove is 591 so this should be ok, but it states the height with the ring part on top is 623, which would be too much.

3) 337 depth of the hearth at it's deepest point. The depth between front and back legs is stated as 315, so this is ok, but the overall depth is 383 which would be too big. Providing issue #2 stated above fits ok without the top ring, then this would allow for the stove to go back the extra 37mm, giving the full 337 depth. Issue #1 would then also need to be ok to allow the flue outlet to push fully back to allow for the 337 also. Then the depth with the stove pushed fully back would need to be less than 337 to the front of the front legs.

The rest of the dimensions look ok, the hearth being thicker than 12mm, and the width of the stove looks perfect too, just as long as it can all fit into the recessed part of the fireplace, it should be ok. I'm not sure if you can get a good enough idea of the inside of the chimney flue etc from the video I posted, but hopefully there won't be any issues with that either.

Considering it may just be a case of sealing the adapter to the bends and that's it, I may try see if it's something I can do myself as I guess this would be a relatively easy install compared to most, so the thoughts of paying €250 for something I could do myself isn't very appealing.

I was thinking maybe even the pioneer would do for Stove 2, but I think one with the air inlet may be better suited although more expensive.

sooty_soupy

Cormie, you are being confused here. The inset is DESIGNED to fit into a confined space, and by breaking out the fireback, and perhaps trimming the brass slightly the inset will work in this fireplace easily. A team of our fitters would have this done in less than a day…easily. The fact that the inset has a convection system built in, means that you get the full 5kw to the room, even though the biggest part of the unit is in the fireplace opening. Now look at the pioneer and you will see it is the same output as the inset but two fundamentally different stoves.

The pioneer is purely a radiant heat stove. It radiates from all of the surfaces, and needs a minimum of 6" air space either side, 4" off the back wall and at least 12" from the top to the underside of the fireplace to comply with manufacturers instructions and building regs, so the pioneer is a disastrous choice for working with this style of fireplace in your photo. If you don't have the air movement of a good sized alcove around the Pioneer the metal will super heat and you will have no warranty with the stove neither. It is not a mistake that freestanding stoves such as the Pioneer and Vision stove are in alcoves with plenty of air around the stove. <snip>

If you are going to do this job, you will need to fit a 6" flexible flue down the chimney and connect to the stove to comply with Clearview instructions for installation. These stoves are some of the most efficient in the world, and with that comes the additional cost of ensuring the flue is equally efficient. If you want to buy a cheap Chinese import, or something held together with fire cement that will chew through a log store like it isn't there, then often you can work with the existing flue, but it seems mad to me that if the stove company are telling you that the diameter of a flue should be 5" or 6" or 7" by the size of the outlet on the appliance, and you decide to ram the vitreous pipe into the 8" clay liner, your flue system is the wrong size for the stove, so what was the point in asking for the correct KW output of stove, if your flue is compromising the efficiency of the stove. Interestingly these stupid stainless steel adapters all the muppets are trying to flog you in shops, because they are afraid of telling you what you need to know to do the job correctly, in case you don't buy their cheap stove, are supposed to adapt your vitreous pipe to the 8" flue, but with the sleeve going up INSIDE the clay liner, then you are affecting the performance of the stove, burning more fuel, loosing more heat and if you are burning damp fuel, or get heavy rain, then black condensate and water from the flue will run down the outside of the adapter, run down the stove pipe and make a mess of the stove and wall, not to mention if the liners are installed upside down or not seated properly the damage caused by these condensates weeping through into the structure of the home.

Two couples from the South of the border came into the showroom today. A couple from Dublin had read these posts and decided to make the trip, and another couple from Meath after being recommended by a friend to come and see us. Both of the couples from your side of the border brought photos of the stoves they had had 'installed' and both were having problems. The reason I say this is purely out of coincidence. One was a freestanding Morso stove sitting half in and half out of a fireplace very similar to yours. There was about 3" of hearth in front of the stove, and the scorch marks on the wood floor were shocking. What made this worse was the fact that the fireplace shop that had "fitted" it used a 90 degree bend off the back of the stove and rammed the flue pipe up the chimney by two foot and left it there, with soot falling down behind a make shift board they had used behind the stove. The lady was told by these idiots that when the carbon monoxide detector went off, which happened every time she lit it, she should open the window, even though it transpired that the stove had a 90 degree bend off the back which was blocked solid with soot. They also told her to buy a RUG…yes a RUG, to put in front of the stove so that it would hide the scorches on the wooden floor and "if the rug burnt, she couple replace it" Perhaps these shops need to start realising that if they screw up and someone looses their life, then manslaughter charges will be brought against them. There is apparently a guy in England starting a prison sentence for a twin wall flue that burnt a house down and killed someone in the process. He was the contractor that thought he could fit it, but didn't comply. Bear this in mind if you are going to be doing the work to a house you are renting out Cormie. The buck stops with you.

If you are going to do half a job, it's better doing nothing at all, until you can afford to do it properly…ONCE.

Have a good one.

sooty_soupy

BTW I don't understand what you mean by going for a bigger stove than the Pioneer to get the external air system. We are authorised by Clearview to fit the system ourselves to any of the stoves, so if the pioneer will do the job as stove number 2, then the kit can be fitted to it. <snip>

Perhaps a series of photos of house one and house two and a drive up might be worth while. We can show you how we do things up here, and if after that you feel comfortable to do the work…correctly, we can get everything down to you, or can discuss what is involved in us doing the work for you, although if you are trying to save £203 on a job doing it yourself, then you might be in for a shock. We don't sub contract our fitting out like Joe seems to d. We have all in house fitters that have been to the production line at the Clearview factory and are all approved to do such installation work. Believe it or not the inset was redesigned by the factory to our specifications based on feed back from our fitting team and myself, so perhaps that helps to demonstrate how much the company respect our background in the industry.

What ever you decide..good luck

D

cormie

Just for clarification: Joe did not see a picture of the fireplace before discussing the Pioneer 400. I went there with the intention of discussing and possibly taking away the inset stove and as soon as I saw the size of it, realising building work would be required and realising the Pioneer 400 actually appears to be smaller, I instantly changed my mind as to which to go for. I had that video on the phone and tried to show it to Joe but as soon as I did, the phone powered off so I had nothing to go by as to the size of the fire place. I didn't enquire much into the installers as it seemed like a pretty easy install so I had it in my head I could probably do it myself and save €250 for what may take an experienced installer less than an hour to do (that's just me guessing and thinking ah sure I could do that ). I think it may have been me who didn't pick up on the external air kit as Joe was saying about putting the stove at an external wall and that it would be especially useful in for example a kitchen where there would be a fight for oxygen from the likes of extractor fans etc. It even states the external air kit as an optional extra of the Pioneer 400.

With regards the flue also, I know it's the best solution for the efficiency etc but I was hoping to get away without the extra cost too. Again, it's rented accommodation and unfortunately on the basement with 4 storey's above me so the cost for a flexible flue that is suitable for coal burning too is going to add considerably to the cost and may not be worth the savings it would bring if if it's only in the place for another 3 years or so. Although going by what Joe was saying yesterday I would probably stick to burning kiln dried logs if I can and just use coal the odd time. I was willing to accept the lower efficiency by installing without the flue.

Unfortunately going by what you're saying, it appears that there may be no solution for Stove 1 from Clearview without doing building work, which in a rented accommodation, I can't be doing. Also the budget for stove 2, including getting gas/oil installed etc isn't there either so both ideas may just have to go on the long finger for now which is a pity, or I may have to just resort to the likes of the boru doras. It's a pity as I really liked the look of the Pioneer 400d and it appears it just requires a bit of extra space I don't have and can't provide. The stove would be slightly recessed into the fireplace but it would have 6" either side and there's the whole opening of the fireplace at the back to maybe allow for the 4", but the wooden mantle is only 7.5" away and not the required 15". Having a 10" addition to the hearth wouldn't have been such a big deal but if the rest doesn't fit, I can't do much.

sooty_soupy

cormie wrote: »

Just for clarification: Joe did not see a picture of the fireplace before discussing the Pioneer 400. I went there with the intention of discussing and possibly taking away the inset stove and as soon as I saw the size of it, realising building work would be required and realising the Pioneer 400 actually appears to be smaller, I instantly changed my mind as to which to go for. I had that video on the phone and tried to show it to Joe but as soon as I did, the phone powered off so I had nothing to go by as to the size of the fire place. I didn't enquire much into the installers as it seemed like a pretty easy install so I had it in my head I could probably do it myself and save €250 for what may take an experienced installer less than an hour to do (that's just me guessing and thinking ah sure I could do that ). I think it may have been me who didn't pick up on the external air kit as Joe was saying about putting the stove at an external wall and that it would be especially useful in for example a kitchen where there would be a fight for oxygen from the likes of extractor fans etc. It even states the external air kit as an optional extra of the Pioneer 400.

With regards the flue also, I know it's the best solution for the efficiency etc but I was hoping to get away without the extra cost too. Again, it's rented accommodation and unfortunately on the basement with 4 storey's above me so the cost for a flexible flue that is suitable for coal burning too is going to add considerably to the cost and may not be worth the savings it would bring if if it's only in the place for another 3 years or so. Although going by what Joe was saying yesterday I would probably stick to burning kiln dried logs if I can and just use coal the odd time. I was willing to accept the lower efficiency by installing without the flue.

Unfortunately going by what you're saying, it appears that there may be no solution for Stove 1 from Clearview without doing building work, which in a rented accommodation, I can't be doing. Also the budget for stove 2, including getting gas/oil installed etc isn't there either so both ideas may just have to go on the long finger for now which is a pity, or I may have to just resort to the likes of the boru doras. It's a pity as I really liked the look of the Pioneer 400d and it appears it just requires a bit of extra space I don't have and can't provide. The stove would be slightly recessed into the fireplace but it would have 6" either side and there's the whole opening of the fireplace at the back to maybe allow for the 4", but the wooden mantle is only 7.5" away and not the required 15". Having a 10" addition to the hearth wouldn't have been such a big deal but if the rest doesn't fit, I can't do much.

Cormie I'm not sure why the inset won't work. The fireback can be broken out to let the inset slide in, with a small modification to the brass surround, which you already said you were prepared to tap up out of the way. The fireback can then be replaced when you take the inset back out which is a simple 1 hour job at most to revert it back to an open fire.

The flue should be used, as you have probably realised by my last post. If you were contemplating doing anything other, and I understand that the length of this flue would be an issue, then the chimney should be checked with CCTV to make sure the liners are installed correctly so that condensate does not pose a major issue in the walls of the rooms above. The flue gas temperatures would be critically low at the top of the flue before the gasses escape. On this basis the quality of fuel would be of paramount importance. If you decide to go this route, you would need a special adapter made by clearview normally used on pumice liner, about half a meter of flex liner and an inset flex adapter which we have specially made, as clearview normally use a rigid single skin off the inset stove which wouldn't work in this case.

All is not lost.

I'm glad to know joe didn't see the pics before he gave you that advice. I'm surprised he didn't ask what size of opening the pioneer was going into though even if he couldn't see the pictures, as a fireplace opening is normally 16"-18" width and about 21.5-22" high and would never have worked.

Your getting there. ;-)