2 Very Different Stove Requests

cormie

Hi folks,
Just looking for any advice on two separate stove requests for two separate people with two different living situations.

Stove 1)
For home owner. Will be permanent for the house. House is currently heated by open fire and back boiler connected to 5 radiators. House is a 4 bedroom, 1 bathroom house built in the early 80's. Holds heat ok. Can do any building work necessary for installation

Image of fireplace: http://omg.wthax.org/ca.jpg

Stove 2)
For tenant. Tenant will want to take it with them if moving. Currently occupying a small bedsit/studio apartment in basement of old enough building. Open fire with no back boiler but tenant mainly using storage heaters at present to heat location. Doesn't hold heat at all. Very badly insulated and heat escaping through chimney etc. Can not do any building work to install. Tenant suffers from allergies and would prefer stove over open fire to keep dust particles out of air in the room ans send them straight up the chimney.

Image of fireplace: http://omg.wthax.org/IMG_20121205_111452.jpg

So two pretty different situations here but would like to try sort something soon for both locations if possible.

I spoke briefly to Stove Fan via PM but got weighed down with the info but now the idea of going for a stove is almost essential for each party.

Stove Fan recommended hunter for an affordable brand and suggested to have a look at stovesonline.co.uk. I may have the opportunity to get a stove collected from there directly and delivered to Ireland by Friday so would like to try get a decision made soon.

So besides a carbon monoxide alarm and an air vent, what else may be required for each location I wonder?

I'd appreciate any feedback at all on this in terms of what type of stove, brand, where to buy, who to use to install etc so any input would be greatly welcome!

jimjimt

Plenty of stoves in Ireland to buy from.

TPM

What does the landlord say about the stove being installed and removed, Installation could require the removal of the fireplace and fire back?

cormie

Thanks for the replies. I wouldn't have an issue buying in Ireland and would prefer to do so for any aftersales support and guarantees too of course.

I was hoping that maybe there was a solution where no building work would be required for the rental property. Maybe a smaller stove that could just sit in front of, or partly into the fireplace?

jimjimt

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. I wouldn't have an issue buying in Ireland and would prefer to do so for any aftersales support and guarantees too of course.

I was hoping that maybe there was a solution where no building work would be required for the rental property. Maybe a smaller stove that could just sit in front of, or partly into the fireplace?

For your tenant have a look at this very little work to be done.

http://borustoves.ie/the-doras-firefront/

But if you are fitting a stove you would have to change your hearth to suit building regs. Take no chances on rental properties.

Inset stoves may also suit better.

http://borustoves.ie/the-fiachra-inset-7-k-w/

Browse around the Boru website some good info and made in Ireland. Good place to start.

cormie

Thanks again for the help!

Would there be ANY option at all for a construction-free stove? The inset stove looks like the hearth would need to be knocked out a bit and I don't think the landlord would be too keen on getting anything done, or the management company for a temporary tenant who may leave at any time. The tenant wants to just have a warm place and is willing to pay the money for the stove, as long as they can take it with them when they are moving out.

What kind of size etc would be needed for Stove 1 I wonder?

Also, is there any downside to an inset stove as opposed to a free standing one? Vents and carbon monoxide alarms are needed anywhere a stove is as far as I know?

jimjimt

All stoves to be install correctly will need alterations and some small build work.

The Boru doras will be the least amount of work but not a stove and may suit the tenant if asked.

As far as the tenant taking it when moving is not practical as more work will have to be done.

nhg

I always thought that most of the heat was lost up the chimney, how is the Dora's going to solve that problem?

Fenton Fires in Greystones would be worth a visit, lovely people to deal with, bought 2 Jotul stoves from them years ago, never a problem.

cormie

That's a pity, I was thinking there would be an option to just have a freestanding stove sitting right in front of the fireplace and the flue just going up the chimney which could be sealed around and removed easily when the tenant wants to move and take it with them. The stove would then act as a blocker for the chimney so the place wouldn't be so cold. I heard one girl saying she was able to move her stove from one place to another and it was easy enough to set up. There's no simple option like that?

cormie

nhg wrote: »

I always thought that most of the heat was lost up the chimney, how is the Dora's going to solve that problem?

Fenton Fires in Greystones would be worth a visit, lovely people to deal with, bought 2 Jotul stoves from them years ago, never a problem.

I was thinking the same thing about the doras regards heat going up the chimney. It looks like you'd lose even more since there's a door in front too? The doras, or anything that will require such alterations to the building wouldn't be an option anyway. I was thinking maybe just a freestanding option. A small stove that would sit in front of the fireplace...

jimjimt

Evan a small stove will require work.
Hearth will have to come out further.
Flue pipe secured into the chimney.
1 days work or two half days as new hearth will have to be installed first.

If the tenant takes the stove away landlord will have to buy exact model to suit or pay the tenant for the stove.

The fire door is not a miracle door but it will put some control over the fire and make it last longer.

Tomk1

I don't know anything about this stuff, OK.
Just started looking, according to:
http://www.firewarm.ie/insert_stove
http://mulberrystoves.com/products-stoker.html
Both says can be fitted basically straight away, just remove fire grates, make sure enough room, and shove it in there. I am talking about the tapered back. Also the stoker-Firefront-boiler model (see pdf from link) uses the current back boiler kindof like that doras one above but has top baffle which stops heat shooting up the chimney 15mins fitting sounds good to me.

jimjimt

Hands up and to be honest I have never seen these products. Both would be a big improvement to an open fire.

I like the idea of the Fire warm stove. Going by the spec it would be half way between an open fire and a stove.
With a minimum amount of work. Time to get a measuring tape and confirm measurements.

Both worth a very strong consideration.

cormie

That firewarm one looks good alright and would be great if it could just be slotted in and out in 15 minutes and taken with the tenant if moving.

In terms of efficiency, what could be expected though compared to a regular stove I wonder?

I really don't know much about stoves, but as far as I know the main benefits are that all the heat doesn't escape up the chimney and that with the door, the burning level can be controlled from the level of oxygen entering the stove. Is this correct? So with the firewarm, with it being slotted in under, would all the heat still not escape up the chimney I wonder and given that there's only one side exposed (the door facing outwards from the hearth), would you be losing the warmth that a freestanding one would be emitting from the whole unit rather than the heat just going into the walls with the likes of the firewarm?

jimjimt

All fires and stoves will have heat loss,

Open fire about 30% efficient 70% heat up the chimney

Free standing stoves between 60-80% efficient most modern stoves heading for 80% efficient.

The firewarm suggests between 60-80% efficient pending on your chimney.

cormie

That's not bad actually, even if it was 60%, it's still double the open fire and then when the fire is unlit it will hopefully stop the warm air escaping through the chimney if the door is closed too. Now just have to find out how much it costs and if it it's worth the investment for the tenant. No prices published on the website unfortunately.

TPM

This is the only price I've seen for them
http://www.stovecentre.ie/product.php?id_product=249

The biggest problem with an open fire is you cant control the air to the fire, this leads to the fuel being burnt quickly producing a large amount of heat most of which passes up the chimney.

Even though the doras or similar products are not as efficient as a stove they do control the air and thus reduce the burning rate, this means you use less fuel ant there is less excess heat to pass up the chimney and also closes of the chimney when the fire is not in use.

Imo they are a good product for the price

cormie

Thanks for that. €1,500 for a 14kw AND boiler stove gives me good hope of the 4KW non boiler inset stove being much cheaper, I hope

How can two stoves the same size (fitting into the fireplace they must be rougly the same size) give different strengths (14kw vs 4kw). I see the higher the KW, the higher the price, how do you know what KW suits and what exactly does a higher KW stove give that a lower one wouldn't?

cormie

Just rang firewarm, they don't supply the public but gave the number for TJ O'Mahony's in Ballymount who sell the 4kw one for 449.99 which is definitely affordable.

This is a lot cheaper than other boiler/higher kw/freestanding stoves I've seen so would it be safe to say that this wouldn't be as good in terms of quality, heat, efficiency I wonder?

He said no building work would be required as long as I've a stone back fire place and that it would fit straight into a 16 or 18 inch fireplace. I assume if I've been using the fireplace as an open fire previously that I do have a stone back?

cormie

I've done a little more research on this and have read some bad things about the firewarm unfortunately so don't feel too confident with that even though the price is pretty good. I don't know if there are any guarantees on the parts with it but from reading posts of The Stove Man, a stove installer who was posting in another thread, he suggests the blacksmith inset stove (artisan I think) and another post by Stove Fan (a simple fan of stoves with over 1,000 posts on boards about stoves, with seemingly no vested interests), he is recommending the Aarrow Ecoburn 5 inset. This one seems to have a lifetime guarantee on the stove body and the brand Aarrow itself is getting Stove Fan's recommendation which must be a good sign

This is the blacksmith: http://www.blacksmithstoves.ie/product-artisan.html
I think it's around €700

This is the Aarrow:
http://www.stovecentre.ie/product.php?id_product=304

PeteHeat

cormie wrote: »

I've done a little more research on this and have read some bad things about the firewarm unfortunately so don't feel too confident with that even though the price is pretty good. I don't know if there are any guarantees on the parts with it but from reading posts of The Stove Man, a stove installer who was posting in another thread, he suggests the blacksmith inset stove (artisan I think) and another post by Stove Fan (a simple fan of stoves with over 1,000 posts on boards about stoves, with seemingly no vested interests), he is recommending the Aarrow Ecoburn 5 inset. This one seems to have a lifetime guarantee on the stove body and the brand Aarrow itself is getting Stove Fan's recommendation which must be a good sign

This is the blacksmith: http://www.blacksmithstoves.ie/product-artisan.html
I think it's around €700

This is the Aarrow:
http://www.stovecentre.ie/product.php?id_product=304

No vested interest?

ROFLMAO at least the Irish suppliers / installers are up front (most of them anyway).

cormie

Not sure what you mean? I just meant stove fan isn't advising people for the prospect of getting business, but just as it seems to be his hobby

sooty_soupy

My only experience with Aarrow was when a stratford arrived damaged from them. I was told to continue installing it and they would send a replacement door, which mean't I could continue with the bulk of the work involving plumbing, breaking out, flue etc. After 12 weeks of phone calls waiting for that bloody door, they told me they were waiting for a container coming in from China with the doors. NEVER AGAIN WILL I DEAL WITH COMPANY…customer service stinks….and that was to a trade customer.

You need to be very careful with Pig Iron stoves. Pig Iron is re-smelted waste metal which is then "cast" into moulds to form plates. If you think you are buying cast iron for the prices you are quoting, you are sadly delusional. Now lets look at the downside of Pig Iron. All the impurities in this material cause the product to break down very quickly. Have a look at the open fire grate, and when you realise it only lasted a year or so, you are starting to realise what pig iron is. Have a look at stately homes or period property and the fireplaces are still original, and the penny drops. Industrial revolution, iron ore from the ground, and then cast iron made to last. Pig Iron also has a problem where heat expands and contracts the metal at different rates, so enamel coatings flake and crack…and I wonder how many people have this very same issue and are reading this and have put two and two together now.

The other issue I have with cast stoves is the construction. Think about 6 plates bolted together from the inside and sealed with fire cement. Once the cement dries, crumbles and turns to dust, you have a box that leaks air and burns fuel uncontrollably…burning components out and producing excessive heat. A well constructed steel stove can be welded, and therefore is more airtight, controllable and long term much more efficient. You will pay more for a good stove, but they burn less fuel, and can stay in all night more successfully.

If you are looking for recommendations for stoves, Charnwood are made in the Isle of Wight, our Clearviews are made in Shropshire, then you have Danish Morso and perhaps Norwegian Jotul. All good contenders for being value for money. They are not cheap. General rule of thumb is that if you are paying less than a grand you are middle of the road, less than £500 and your scraping the bottom of the barrel. Remember "a good job is not often cheap and a cheap job is rarely good"

Do yourself a favour. Have a look at stove construction, if it feel loose and tinny, like the controls of an Aarrow stratford, or has fire cement joints like the Blacksmith, or tiger stoves to name a couple, then think long and hard about throwing your money about.

Irony (pardon the pun) is buying a cheap stove, the backside out of it in three or four years if you're lucky, then the scrap yard ships it to China, to come back to us again as another cheap import, and this is in the name of greener way of heating your home.

I won't sell foreign stoves, and after 23 years as a registered chimney technician working with every kind of stove you can imagine, I have found that Clearview or perhaps Charnwood have the edge for British construction. I want to fit and forget for my clients, unless they want a second stove ;-)

Final point….before you buy your chosen stove…make sure you see it burning. Look for the controllability, heat output, and if the glass is staying as clean as the airwash systems tell you it will in the brochure. Hardware shops, building supplies, plumbing counters are all selling you the brochure images, but if they were so confident they would be using them in the shop so you could see how "good" they were.

Hope this helps

cormie

Thanks a lot for that sooty. I was just about to post saying it looks like Aarrow is the top choice. Aarrow stoves are getting very good reviews on whatstove.co.uk so it's unfortunate to hear of your bad experience... maybe just a once off and maybe wouldn't be a problem if it arrived in good shape in the first place? Or do you still think the build quality isn't good and will suffer from the pig iron/concrete crumbling you mention? This is contradictory to what Stove Fan was suggesting as he seemed to suggest Aarrow a few times...

One of the higher rated inset stoves seems to be the woodwarm fireview 4kw here: http://www.whatstove.co.uk/woodwarm-stoves/woodwarm-fireview-4kw-inset-stove.html

I just had a look at the clearview brand on whatstove.co.uk and they do indeed get brilliant ratings, and a LOT of them too, however they appear to be made from steel and not cast iron? Were you saying Cast Iron is better than steel? I'm a little confused...

There doesn't seem to be a "slot in" type inset stove from them but if you know of any, could you give me a price on supply and fit of two suitable stoves for the above applications please?

sooty_soupy

The concept of an inset stove is to fit into a confined space as it doesn't need as much airflow around the body of the stove, because convection pulls cold air in from the room under the stove, heats it and projects this warmed air through vents above the door. A front face unit across a fireplace opening doesn't perform as well, and in my experience, can be counter productive as the rope seals tend to weaken, and then it is like holding a sheet of newspaper across the opening of an open fire to get it lit, and all hell breaks loose with the fuel consumption.

Fitting a stove in front of a fireplace is dodgy territory if you get it wrong. I have seen website from stove men showing installations that just fly in the fact of fire regulations so be careful with that. Remember that the maximum distance a flue can safely travel horizontally is 6" before it rises into the flue, should have a t section below rather than a 90 degree bend, and if you ar sitting the stove in front of a fireplace, then timber surrounds need to be 18" minimum away from the stove, and the hearth will normally need to be extended. 9" of hearth minimum in from of the stove of non combustible material, to make sure your insurance doesn't laugh and walk away, but preferably the hearth should at least cover the swing of the door for obvious reasons.

I think you need to accept there is going to be construction work. Discuss it with the landlord and if you fit something like a cassette stove, or an inset like the Clearview Inset we have, then when it comes to taking it out, it is a simple matter of replacing the fireback and reverting it back to an open fire. We are doing this for people all over the North.

Hope this helps

cormie

sooty_soupy wrote: »

Hope this helps

Just got a whole lot more confusing

So you're saying there's no real reliable solution without having to do SOME building work?

What would be the main disadvantages/risks of installing the likes of a "Slot in" inset stove like the woodwarm/aarrow inset 4/5kw units and what would be the advantages to doing it properly or going for a different type stove? If the stove costs me 700eur and saves me 800eur over 3 years would it not be worth it?

cormie

Was just having another read around and from what I've read on clearview stoves, they certainly seem to be top of the range. Stove Fan highly recommends them too but also suggests a woodwarm inset stove to be just as good as the clearview inset but beats it on price.

I don't want to have to buy spares and parts frequently so would prefer get a high quality make and just do the ground work in terms of research etc once. So I think it might be best to just go with the higher quality stove.

cormie

Just rang sooty soupy's shop there (https://plus.google.com/104455838598826313706/about?hl=en) and was given a price of

£1,445 for the clearview vision inset alone. This would be the one for the rented accommodation.

The price for the Stove 1 requested in the OP would be £1768 + £366 for the boiler + £105 for the air attachments I think it was?

I've seen the clearview stated as the Rolls Royce of stoves but that's a good chunk of money and then there'd be installation, flue attachments etc on top aswell.

The woodwarm 4k inset is £1090 here: http://www.hot-stoves.co.uk/ProductList.aspx?category=2754

cormie

I see clearview stoves are actually available from stovecentre.ie too.

I received an email from the stove man suggesting that for Stove 1 mentioned in the OP, it may be counter productive getting a freestanding stove considering the boiler. That the stove may cost about 1,500eur and fitting about 1,200eur with the building work required and that to heat the boiler I'd be burning as much fuel as in the open fire so it would take 20 years for the stove to pay for itself. A boru doras fire door was suggested instead.

sooty_soupy

Difference between woodworm and Clearview is the fact that Clearview have a double glazed unit to ensure the glass stays clean, so forget all the airwash talk that can be a bit hit and miss. Clearview do exactly what they say on the box ;-)

The Clearview stoves have been around for nearly 30 years and are tried and tested, where as Woodwarm are a relative new comer to the market…make of that what you want…but a well respected, established company with a reputation to boot wins it for me. Also the Clearview has a very clever door and hinge system to ensure it make the unit airtight. On this basis, you will be more in control of the oxygen getting into the firebox, and therefore will be in control of fuel consumption a long time after the other stoves are leaking air into the burn chamber like a sieve.

Personally I try to stay away from central heating stoves. You will find fuel consumption is astronomical to try to heat radiators, hot water AND give you radiant heat, (which incidentally is the last thing you get) Open fires have virtually no controllability so getting hot water is beneficial because you are burning the volume of fuel anyway. A good quality stove like the Charnwood or Clearview are designed to be more controllable so radiant heat in a well insulated house is better than carrying a wood supply constantly to the stove to do the work behind the scenes first.

Anyone will sell you a box out there. Remember that. If you are asking for radiators they will be rubbing their hands and laughing all the way to the bank after selling you a big feck off (thanks Mrs Brown) stove that can prove to be an expensive mistake if you don't have a forest to feed the bloody thing. Our Vision 500 stove last night stayed in all night on 2 good sized Ash logs from 11pm until 8.30 this morning, and when we were burning it yesterday evening while watching TV, it went through 6 logs from about 5pm to 11pm. The proof is in the pudding, and you'll hear that from any of the stove review people that have invested in a Clearview heating system.

You get what you pay for.

There are only two authorised agents in Ireland for Clearview stoves so just a word of caution for anyone buying from elsewhere. If you have warranty issues, if it wasn't bought from Joe at Bells in Dublin, or ourselves in the North, you will be returning the stove back to Shropshire if you have any issues with the unit. You shouldn't have any, but you might be the unlucky one. At least bought from an authorised agent you know you are getting the correct advice first, using the correct components for installation and will get the service Clearview expect, rather than buying from a box mover that couldn't care less how it is fitted, or how well it performs. Some of us have a bit more pride in how we conduct ourselves in business than just selling a commodity.

Be careful….it's a jungle of cast iron, pig iron and steel out there. LOL

cormie

Thanks a lot for that sooty! I spoke to Joe in Bells today and he was very helpful and explained things to me very well. His price, although a good bit dearer than the warmwood, may be worth the extra if it means I'll be getting one of the best available and it will be more efficient in the long run. Unfortunately I learned that to make the most of the stove, I'd also need to invest in flexible flue pipe, adding another few hundred to the cost. Given the fact it's a rental property, maybe this can be avoided at the sacrifice of not getting such a high efficiency. I've also been told from the stove man "You will not be able to fit a clearview inset into that fireplace
without removing the fireback, and cutting the brass frame and fire place
to suit.
The fireplace would not be able to go back to an open fire if the stove
was removed" This isn't what I wanted to hear for the rental property stove!

I'm very surprised, and correct me if this isn't what you mean, that I'm now being advised against fitting a stove for Stove 1, with the backboiler. I though the stove would be a much better solution for both heating the backboiler and radiators throughout the house, while giving ample heat to the room it's in and also reducing fuel bills. Coal is the choice of fuel for that house, so what you and the stove man are saying, is that it'd be just as economical to leave things as they are as the open fire would be heating the backboiler, thus distributing heat to the radiators to warm the whole house, just as good as a stove could, if not better? So why would anyone with a backboiler get a stove then?

The Stove Man also suggested about getting the boru doras fire door which would allow more control over the fire burning.

So to summarise.

Stove 1 (Back boiler)
Suggested to not bother with stove at all due to backboiler and radiator requirement. Doras firedoor suggested to control burn level of open fire.

Stove 2 (tenant)
Clearview looks to be the clear winner in terms of a quality inset stove, however it may not be possible to install without building work and to get the full efficiency it offers, a flexible flue liner would be required at a high additional cost.

jimjimt

A stove with a boiler is far more efficient than a traditional back boiler in a fireplace. No competition at all. No matter what you do.

If it was my money being spent it would be bells and whistle stove with boiler for my house or Firebird new high efficiency Troy back boiler

Boru Doras or Mulberry Stoker for the tenant.

cormie

Hmm, you've confused me even further now. So jimjimt is saying that a stove with boiler would be far more efficient than an open fire heating the boiler for heating the house (so radiator temperature etc). This seems to go against what sooty soupy and the stove man say and they sell/fit stoves so it's in their interest to be promoting stoves as opposed to saying I'd be better off without one for the boiler/Stove 1 request

TPM

jimjimt wrote: »

A stove with a boiler is far more efficient than a traditional back boiler in a fireplace. No competition at all. No matter what you do.

If it was my money being spent it would be bells and whistle stove with boiler for my house or Firebird new high efficiency Troy back boiler

Boru Doras or Mulberry Stoker for the tenant.

cormie wrote: »

Hmm, you've confused me even further now. So jimjimt is saying that a stove with boiler would be far more efficient than an open fire heating the boiler for heating the house (so radiator temperature etc). This seems to go against what sooty soupy and the stove man say and they sell/fit stoves so it's in their interest to be promoting stoves as opposed to saying I'd be better off without one for the boiler/Stove 1 request

I would agree with jimjimt a stove with a boiler will beat a back boiler for efficiency

A stove for room heat only will probably be more economical to run than a boiler stove as you are dealing with a far smaller heat requirement.

A major consideration of the viability of fitting stoves is the overall cost of the installation.
If a stove cost €1800 and a further €1200 to install you are €3000 down before you start burning fuel which will probably be more expensive than oil.

Another option would be to buy a tank of oil put the remaining €2000 in a jar, now each day instead of buying coal/sticks/turf/briquets put €5-€10 euro in the jar.
when you need oil raid the jar.
How long would it take for the jar to be empty?

jimjimt

I have being fitting back boilers, stove boilers, solid fuel appliances etc for over 22 years.
I have taken out plenty of back boilers and replaced with stove boilers.

I have yet to take out a stove boiler and replace with a back boiler. Not even requested ever never.

If back boilers were more efficient their would be no Stove Shops but Back Boiler Shops


Oil v solid fuel....... Oil is still number one for heating a house in full, even at current prices.

Carbon tax will keep increasing on coal and other solid fuels. No choice if emission targets have to be met.

Listen to TPM he makes a good suggestion on putting money a side for oil.

Or you can do like me go Wood Pellet to heat the house in full and currently half the cost of oil

cormie

Ah now I'm even more confused Adding oil to the equation? Thanks again for all the details. Now I'm not even sure if a stove is the best option to go with with the budget?



That's a very similar style house to where stove 1 was intended for (same estate found on daft). It's 91sq meters, semi detatched.

downstairs:
hall - double radiator
kitchen - double radiator
living room - open fire, no radiator

upstairs:
landing - no radiator
box room 1 - no radiator
box room 2 - no radiator
room 3 - double radiator
room 4 - double radiator
bathroom - double radiator

ah so only 5 radiators, not 6 I first mentioned. The house is currently only heated by the open fire which in turn heats the back boiler giving heat to the radiators.

Insulation in the attic was recently redone and there was a notable difference in heat retention.

The house is about 30 years old and still has the original single glazed windows. The back of the house looks pretty much identical window wise to the front plus there is a small bathroom window on the side.

There is no oil or gas in the house at all.

The owner LOVES the open fire and wouldn't like to stop using it (this includes a stove of course).

What would be the best place to start in terms of keeping the house warm and saving money long term?

TPM

cormie wrote: »

What would be the best place to start in terms of keeping the house warm and saving money long term?

Insulation first, always. you say the attic was redone have to ask if it was done properly, walls will need to be looked at too, then look at the windows.

The most efficient way to heat a house is by keeping the heat in.


the more information you give the more suggestions you will get.

cormie wrote: »

There is no oil or gas in the house at all.

The owner LOVES the open fire and wouldn't like to stop using it (this includes a stove of course).

I would look into the cost of fitting gas or oil, this way the owner will use the back boiler with no additional expectations from it, and be able to boost with the oil or gas, plus the fact with the time clock they will be able to have heat/hot water with out lighting the fire

jimjimt

If your radiators are thirty years old a new stove will not do them much justice.

Also you could do with more rads for the box rooms.

Money better spent on insulation,windows and new radiators come heating system.

You have a bit of budgeting and long term planning to do.

cormie

More rads in the box rooms has been considered alright and I actually picked up two radiators one small and one double a few months ago but they haven't been installed yet.

Seems like the stove would be last on the list of priorities for a warmer home but the initial idea was to put money towards one as a gift. Insulation and radiators don't really make such a nice gift, especially for someone who loves a real fire lighting.

If money were no object (including fuel as although gas and oil may be cheaper, solid fuel for a real fire would definitely be preferred), if I'm understanding correctly, by order of importance you're talking:

(1) Attic and wall insulation
(2) Windows
(3) Replace 30 year old radiators with newer ones and fit two more in box rooms
(4a) Replace back boiler with stove and new back boiler
(4b) Use Boru Doras fire door to heat existing back boiler and control fuel usage a bit better

Can oil or gas be used in conjunction with options 4a/b or is it either oil/gas or solid fuel?

I'm guessing to do everything you're talking the guts of 20K?

sooty_soupy

Personally I would get oil or gas in to give you the warmth in the rads when required. Fit thermostatic valves to the rads as well, so they only call for heat when the stove isn't working as hard. Get rid of the back boiler in the fireplace that is trying to drive radiators and put in a good quality stove into the room which will be ideal for keeping the family/living areas nice and cosy. Because you will then be stopping heat loss through the flue, which is crippling the house at the moment, you will find the oil or gas is doing less work when working in conjunction with the stove. If you are going to be using a lot of hot water, for power showers as opposed to electric,or regular baths, then perhaps a domestic boiler in the stove will reduce the oil/gas bill further, but if you envisage using very little hot water, i.e very rarely using a bath, having and electric shower and having a washing machine and dishwasher, then I wouldn't waste money and fuel on the domestic boiler.

I would also select a stove that can have an external air kit fitted to it, so it can take the air it needs to burn safely directly into the stove from outside, such as the Clearview stoves. This will reduce unpleasant draughts in the house and you may find you don't need to replace the windows just yet. An open fire is nice to look at, but that is where the benefit ends. A Clearview stove is double glazed and will stay a lot cleaner than many other stoves on the market that claim to have the airwash system, so you will have the focal point you desire, and the efficiency and control of a high end stove.

The open fire needs on average 60m3 of air each hour whether is it is lit or not, and guess where it pulls that air from…that's right.. your home…and takes all the precious heat with it, while pulling cold air into the home from outside to replace the air being drawn up the chimney. Have you ever sat and wondered why your house drops in temperature as soon as the heating is switched off or the fire goes out. An open fire can replace the air in your entire home every 10 minutes.

An interesting issue I have come across with these fire front units you are being recommended is that the open fire boiler often struggles to heat the radiators at the best of time, and when it does succeed it has burnt through a tremendous amount of fuel. Now lets stick a farce of a door over the front of the fireplace and give you some more control, and watch what happens to your radiator temperature. Luke warm is about as good as it is getting. Also you need to be very careful about the front face units, as they can have an adverse affect on the fuel consumption. Lets think about a cold damp day with very little air movement outside. Now if we try to light the open fire, hands up how many people have held a sheet of newspaper in front of the fireplace to force the draught. Well this is just what happens to these front face units, as making them airtight to the fireplace is not easy, and certainly not long term. The cheaper stoves held together by fire cement do the same thing, when the very same product used to make it airtight, turns to dust and causes over burn. Increased fuel consumption, and more spare parts for the "efficient" stove.

Interestingly one manufacturer tells us in the instructions that the facing unit needs taken out every time the chimney needs swept. Are they having a laugh? I train and represent the registered chimney sweeps here in the North, and we will condemn these kinds of units. There MUST be access into the appliance for sweeping and maintenance without the need to dismantle and take out appliances. Sweeps are not going to take on the responsibility to re-fit such an appliance and exonerate the "installer" for the sake of £30-£40

Just do your homework before you plump for an expensive mistake. The windows can be done anytime, the insulation can be bulked out anytime, but every day that goes by with an open fire it is costing you a fortune. Up to 90% of the heat from an open fire goes up the chimney. If I was to offer you a heating appliance that is a mere 10% efficient, would you go for it? There is a reason why fireplace shops are selling stoves. Fireplace fitters needed to use a spirt level, drill and screw driver, and mix cement. They didn't need to know anything about chimneys, flues or the science of how they work. This is what I have done for years, and it frustrates the hell out of me when unsuspecting members of the public are being used as Guinea Pigs by box movers North and South. Bear in mind I am a chimney sweep through and through. I have been the one sitting on the hearth talking to thousands of people for over 23 years, learning what has worked, what has been a success and what has been an expensive disaster. I have come into the industry from a different perspective than someone just opening up a shop and selling stoves because they are the in thing to be at. I have been to houses after major fires, on behalf of insurance companies, been asked to get involved where carbon monoxide has claimed lives, given seminars on flues and chimney issues. I've been in court as an expert witness too many times and to be honest some of the things I have seen being done by "professionals" is nothing short of disgraceful. Your best line of defence is to download document J in the South and technical booklet L in the North and make sure it is followed to the letter by anyone you employ to fit a new appliance. Arm yourself with as much information as you can, speak to technical services of the manufacturer you choose to go with and buy from a company that the manufacturer recommends as their authorised agents, rather than a box mover that couldn't give a s**t about you, your stove, your family or property. There is more to life than the pound or euro, there is doing the right thing for the person standing in front of you at that point in time, getting it right and being proud to do so.

I'm off the soap box now, and going to bed.

Good luck

cormie

Wow, that's some post there sooty!

It's also a good point to tackle what's eating the most money first, which I guess is the fuel for the open fire. If this can be lowered, then it would be easier to then save up for the rest.

How much would an oil/gas installation cost and would oil or gas be better? I'm not sure if the home owner likes the idea of gas but I don't think they'd like the idea of a big oil tank in the back either, so I'm not sure which would be the best option? Cost of installation and cost of fuel both now and in the future is of course a concern too.

I think if the addition of a boiler to the stove would be a lot cheaper than the installation of oil/gas, then it might be best to do this first, then maybe later install oil/gas to manage the radiators.

Baths wouldn't be used so much but the electric shower and washing machine would be. I thought the idea of an electric shower was that it heats the water itself so doesn't rely on the water tank being hot, so wouldn't be effected by the oil/gas/boiler? Also with the washing machine having its own heating element and I think most modern day ones only have a "cold" inlet for water and heat the water internally?

That's interesting about the air usage. I never thought of that and I can see why people stuff their chimneys if they aren't using the open fire now You certainly make the Clearview stoves sound like they are worth the extra investment. I might pop into Bells when I get the chance and see them in action.

So the Clearview stoves will pretty much work independently of the house its in so it's getting the air from outside and exhaling through the flue and will give immediate savings on solid fuel such as coal and won't be sucking all the warm air through the house meaning insulation and windows can be looked at later on as opposed to immediately as with an open fire going or unlit, it will still be replacing all the warm air?

sooty_soupy

OK so to clarify, you are correct that electric showers, washing machines and dishwashers take cold feeds in, so heating a cylinder of hot water and using more fuel on the stove to do so, when you are not using the water each day is wasteful. Forget all the crap about "if I'm burning the fuel I may as well get additional benefit from the fuel I am burning" I have heard all that before....but from open fire users. Remember you have no control over the burn rate of an open fire, so capitalising on the fuel that is burning away is advantageous. A high end stove can give you total control over the burn rate, so once the stove has done what you are asking it to do, in this case heat the living areas, well then you turn it down....what is it the meerkat says....simple.

Also remember that if you are registered for VAT in the south, we can invoice to the company, we can ship everything down with instructions for fitting and zero rate the materials, which has proved to be very helpful to many of our clients over the border. Just a thought ;-) It has been nice to get the odd sale considering the efforts we go to to help people out with sound advice. LOL

Best to you all

jimjimt

Hi Cormie,
if you take out the back boiler and install a stove to heat the room only, no boiler.

What will heat the radiators and the rest of the house?

Perhaps you can do a little house survey on your room sizes and orientation for radiator sizing and sooty can give you both options for a room heat only stove and boiler stove.

Unless of course you are going to install gas or oil at the same time.

sooty_soupy

Yes Jim is right. Although some of the contained radiant heat of a dry stove will rise up through the house, it might be advisable to sit tight with the open fire and save up enough to put in the central heating, oil or gas, I have no preference as I don't work in either field anymore, then do both projects at the same time...stove and heating.

The system would need to be drained down to get the boiler out of the fireplace anyway, so it seems sensible to deal with both projects at the same time. It is also advisable to put in thermostatic valves on the radiators, or even better to zone the house i.e upstairs rads, downstairs rads, then hot water in the cylinder separately. The best of all worlds.

Once you have done this phase of the revamp, then you can look at windows, cavity wall insulation and extra loft insulation, but the big killer with a heating system in a modern home is an open fire, but don't burn the bridges until a new bridge is ready to go in....although if you had a bridge to burn, it might be to your benefit ;-)

cormie

I still don't understand how a cold feed tap, which from what I know is separate to the hot water tank and comes directly from outside the house, going into an electrical appliance (electric shower/washing machine/dish washer) which then heats the water itself with an element powered by electricity is related to a stove/boiler?

Ideally it would be great to get oil/gas installed at the same time alright as a stove.

Any idea of the costs for such an installation and is it possible to have oil without having a big tank in the back garden? Do coal men deliver oil as well as coal so could come with a new small tank and take the old one away every so often?

So ideally it would be:

1) Oil/Gas installed with radiators modified (thermostat etc) and extra rads in box rooms, boiler drained and removed, fireplace adjusted to fit stove with boiler and both oil/gas and stove working in conjunction.
2) Insulation
3) Windows

This would give the most immediate savings considering the drop in solid fuel purchasing and would give way to easier savings for step 2 and 3.

sooty_soupy

cormie wrote: »

I still don't understand how a cold feed tap, which from what I know is separate to the hot water tank and comes directly from outside the house, going into an electrical appliance (electric shower/washing machine/dish washer) which then heats the water itself with an element powered by electricity is related to a stove/boiler?

Ideally it would be great to get oil/gas installed at the same time alright as a stove.

Any idea of the costs for such an installation and is it possible to have oil without having a big tank in the back garden? Do coal men deliver oil as well as coal so could come with a new small tank and take the old one away every so often?

So ideally it would be:

1) Oil/Gas installed with radiators modified (thermostat etc) and extra rads in box rooms, boiler drained and removed, fireplace adjusted to fit stove with boiler and both oil/gas and stove working in conjunction.
2) Insulation
3) Windows

This would give the most immediate savings considering the drop in solid fuel purchasing and would give way to easier savings for step 2 and 3.

You are still confused by what I am trying to explain. If all the appliances etc are heating the cold water feed, this is exactly why I saying a boiler stove is not right for you, but a dry stove giving plenty of controllable warmth to the living areas makes much more sense.

As far as oil tanks are concerned, a slimline tank doesn't take up too much room and would be more convenient than having a company bring smaller quantities regularly. Bulk buying is cheaper than paying for constant calls to the house.

As far as cost is concerned that depends on how much is involved. If you need a new boiler, cabinet, flue, tank, plumbing materials and electrics you could easily be looking at 6-8000 euro I would imagine but it is difficult to know without a proper site survey. If you know of any reputable heating firm that can provide references for their quality of work then get them to give you a price, and then you know where you stand.

D

cormie

Ahhhh. I get you now, I didn't read that properly above

That makes sense, yeah so no point expending extra energy from solid fuel heating water that won't be used, it would be better to have that same energy spent heating the room, which would use less fuel to just heat the room as opposed to heating the room and boiler, when a lot of the water will end up not being used.

I was just in a house there which had gas and it seems a pretty simple set up. I called bord gais, their external work will be €250 and then there is the cost of the registered gas installer to do his work and the gas boiler too of course. I think the gas may be a better idea over the oil as I've heard oil prices are going to get higher than gas and then there's no need for the tank out the back, getting deliveries, risk of it being stolen etc.

The chap with the gas said he didn't think a gas boiler and a stove boiler could be used at the same time but it seems from your post they can, unless you mean the thermostat on the radiators work on the temperature of the room itself and not on the temperature of the radiator, so using the stove downstairs would mean the radiators down stairs adjust to the heat downstairs when the stove is on?

Either way, I think that might be the best option to go for. To get gas and a general stove installed at the same time. Unless a stove boiler and gas boiler can work together and would be better long term, but from what you're saying it doesn't seem like there's any need for the stove boiler if there's gas, especially with hot water on demand from the appliances themselves being fed with the cold tap such as the electric shower, washing machine etc.

sooty_soupy

There you go..we got there in the end. A dry stove heats the living areas easily with less fuel than if it had a boiler in the stove. Thermostats on radiators or in the room detect when the stove is doing a good job and the radiators don't call for heat from the central heating.

The bedrooms and bathroom upstairs perhaps take some heat from the central heating, but often a bedroom radiator thermostatic valve is set low just to take the chill off the room rather than be bouncing off the wall with heat. A nice heated towel rail in the bathroom may be all that needs heat from the gas and you're good to go.

The reviews on www.whatstove.co.uk will mostly tell you that the Clearview is going to go a long way to keeping the house cosy all the time anyway when it is lit.

Speak soon

D

cormie

Thanks again for the input. You've definitely convinced me to go with clearview, sure the reviews speak for themselves. Better off spending a bit extra on a decent one if it's going to last and won't fall apart after a few years.

Will show the home owner this thread and see what can be planned for with their budget. I'll definitely be pushing the idea of gas and a clearview stove and the radiator thermostats too considering the radiators are 30 years old, I wonder would they be better off being replaced completely. They are all working fine so it would seem unfortunate and a waste to have to do that, especially if the thermostat thingy can control them by being retrofitted.

sooty_soupy

The rads might be grand. Sure put the valves on and see what happens. If the rads need replaced later on, then the valves are there already. I would suggest getting the system power flushed first to make sure all the crap and gunge is out of the system, and then fill using an inhibitor like Fernox to prevent clogging and black water building up in the future...sorted

jimjimt

Sounds like you got a good plan going on.

If you are going with a new gas boiler it would be best to get new rads if budget allows.
Do make sure you get your heating system flushed and clean in full before you install a new gas boiler that is a must. If not your new gas boiler will be short lived no matter what brand you choose.


I have not heard of Clearview Stoves until sooty came along.

I like the spec on their boiler stoves giving different btu's at different levels interesting... learn something new everyday.