Men's knowledge of "Women's issues"

Neewbie_noob

openup wrote: »

Do you think that there is a lack of knowledge amongst men about so called "women's issues"?

It's something I've noticed a lot lately, especially since there has been an increased interest in abortion etc. Men seem to have surprisingly little knowledge about things like contraception, abortion, menstruation etc. Now, I'm not suggesting they need to know on what day of her cycle a woman ovulates but I find it strange that two straight men expressed surprise when I told them that no contraceptive is 100% effective. Another friend of mine posted the statistic that 54% of women who have abortions were on contraception, personally I found this shockingly low but he thought it was surprisingly high and said it changed his opinion on abortion.

Other surprising things I've heard was one guy who didn't realize pregnancy still holds health risks, one who thought women physically can't have sex while menstruating, more than one who thought having sex physically changes women and plenty who didn't realize women took the pill for reasons other than contraception.

These examples mainly come from college educated, straight men, all in and around there 20s, most of whom have/have had serious relationships with women. I would have thought that these things effect men (more specifically men interested in women) too. Has anybody else noticed this lack of knowledge? Do you think men need to know these things? Or do you all think I'm over-reacting?

Now I realize this a generalization and that there are men who perhaps know more than some women but for the purpose of this discussion I'm talking about men in the abstract.

I am a straight man 21, college educated (Science) and NEVER thought any of the crap here, either the vast majority of men are idiots or you have cherry picked from a small sector of society.

spurious

The vast majority of men are not idiots of course, but there are a frightening number of both men and women who have very poor understanding of how their own bits work, let alone how those of the opposite gender work.

Have a read of the circumcision thread in TGC for men waiting years to go to a doctor and get something relatively routine done. It's scary and equally matched by a proportion of women who do not join the dots or make connections regarding their own behaviour/lifestyle and fertility.

revz

I'm a 21 year old male, and until I started going out with my girlfriend just over a year ago I didn't know what the pill actually did.
I knew it was "contraception". But with every "think contraception" ad and the likes that I can think back on always mentioning condoms I grew up thinking that was the only way to avoid pregnancy. Not that this was really that bad of a mistake, probably for the best that I'd make sure to wear a condom every time no matter what! (STIs and all that). I thought it was just like some kind of extra safety net.
My girlfriend was a bit miffed though when she decided to go on the pill and I still insisted on wearing condoms. She then went off the pill.
I suppose up until then I never had a girl go through what it actually did (no long-term girlfriends before this).
Luckily enough at around the same time, I did lectures on the pill in college and only then did it click with me, especially when seeing that use of the pill alone is statistically more effective than the use of condoms alone!
After explaining all this to her she then went back on the pill
I'm not alone on this though, definitely two of the guys in my group of friends have similar thought to what I had and insist on still using a condom even though their girlfriends are on the pill. One of them literally took 5 minutes of convincing that you don't need to "pull out" when she's on the pill. Even still, last time we were speaking about this he still insists on using a condom.
I suppose that's their choice, and if they want to take the extra precaution even though the pill is 99+% effective (with perfect use) then go for it. They're the ones missing out though

(I'm speaking about this in relationships where you know your other half and their sexual health etc.)

MrTsSnickers

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Well I´m shocked. Who tells these people these things? I think parents and teachers have a duty to teach people about contraception, pregnancy and STD´s so that the silly myths are dispelled and so that everyone knows things like -no contraception is 100% effective, what forms of contraception exist, how they work, the risks they entail, the causes, symptoms, effects and treatment options for various STD´s, and the health risks pregnancy poses. They should also know a little about the laws on abortion and parental rights. That all seems like necessary info IMO and I think a lot of people (adults included) -both male and female - don´t have this info. Other things like alternative reasons for taking the pill are not essential info for men and I think most would learn it when they start having serious relationships.

I've worked in the area of sexual health for a while now, mainly with secondary school/youthreach and the like. I think that while many parents try to explain sex to their kids (and some do a magnificent job, don't get me wrong), often times the kids are mortified and just try to get through the conversation by smiling and nodding! Also, kids don't want to ask teachers that they see every day the awkward, oddball, slightly weird questions that they might have. I genuinely think that a person coming into the school teaching a series of seminars works better than teachers doing it. They can ask questions anonymously in our course (as we do it in 3 seminars with a break in between).

As an aside, while the students know a lot, the evaluations that we do at the end of the course always say that they want to know more about how to function in a relationship and how to actually negotiate sex. The majority want to be safe but are not entirely sure how to bring the issue of protection up, also, many of the girl see carrying condoms/being on the pill primarily for contraceptive reasons/asking about their partners sexual history to be slutty in a sense and are extremely nervous about doing any of those things.

Personally, I think the best thing to do is have a home that's open to conversation about sex, parents asking questions and following their children's cues. Like I said kids know a lot but they also get a lot of info from parents from organic conversation. I know one parent whose child was around the 16 mark and male. She bought condoms, left them in the bathroom cabinet and just said to her son that she'd prefer if he waited to have sex but that if he was to do it safely. If he wanted to take the condoms into his room, that was fine, but she would replace them in the cabinet. He took some, she asked if he was having sex, he said no, he was figuring out how to use them on his own. end of conversation.

Anyway, slightly off topic but i think that while some don't know these things many more do but are loathe to discuss it with any sort of confidence because it's seen as oddball or deviant.

eviltwin

My husband grew up in an all male household so when we moved in he was totally clueless about anything to do with womens health. He had been given "the talk" but like a lot of men probably thought it wasn't relevant to him and so didn't listen. I had to educate him

He didn't even know how long a cycle was or when ovulation happens :eek: Even now he would be a bit unsure about anything to do with pregnancy, womens cancers etc

I suppose I don't think about men's health that much myself so its probably something I am as guilty of too.

A Primal Nut

Another thing is that women never talk about this kind of stuff; periods, etc when there is a man around, even my girlfriends have been reluctant to talk about in the past. So because we never hear about it in our day to day lives, it took me a long time to understand everything. Even now there are some things I don't understand.:P

miamee

Conversely some men feel that any mention of periods or time of the month is 'TMI'. I think it's probably embarrassment rather than an actual lack of interest.

the_syco

openup wrote: »

one who thought women physically can't have sex while menstruating

<snip>

most of whom have/have had serious relationships with women

I'd wonder who told them these things? It may be that the woman he was with couldn't for whatever reason have sex at that time, and the man just took it as gospel that it applied to all women.

frozenfrozen wrote: »

It's this sort of thing that creates the whole "woman's problems" thing, that men are afraid to ask since they'll get their hand bitten off for not knowing.

As well as not asking, some immature males view you not knowing something as you not having enough "experience", and thus don't always ask amongst themselves. Or worse; disinformation is gotten when a question is asked.

sam34 wrote: »

when it comes to sex, contraception and possible conception, shouldn't responsible adults, both male and female, seek out this information for themselves, instead of passively waiting to be taught?

How do they seek the information if they don't know the information exists?

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Who tells these people these things?

As the saying goes; knowledge is power. But if you don't know something, and want to remain in power, bulsh|t. Unfortunately some people will not question the bullsh|t, take it as gospel, and tell others it.

I remember one such myth was you can't get pregnant if you have sex whilst standing up, as the sperm won't travel up, or some such nonsense.

sam34

the_syco wrote: »

How do they seek the information if they don't know the information exists?.

Ah come on. Surely people old enough to have sex know that pregnancy is a potential outcome. Surely its not asking too much that they think to themselves "how do i avoid getting pregnant/getting someone pregnant?" and go find out. Most people now have fairly easy access to the Internet, where information can be sourced. Even as a very sheltered teenager back before the Internet was readily available,and with a very Catholic mother who provided no information, I knew loads about contraception, std's etc through surreptitious purchasing of women's magazines. I did it cos I wanted to know and knew I needed to know.

It's time people took responsibility for themselves instead of expecting to be spoonfed everything.

sam34

sam34 wrote: »

Ah come on. Surely people old enough to have sex know that pregnancy is a potential outcome. Surely its not asking too much that they think to themselves "how do i avoid getting pregnant/getting someone pregnant?" and go find out. Most people now have fairly easy access to the Internet, where information can be sourced. Even as a very sheltered teenager back before the Internet was readily available,and with a very Catholic mother who provided no information, I knew loads about contraception, std's etc through surreptitious purchasing of women's magazines. I did it cos I wanted to know and knew I needed to know.

It's time people took responsibility for themselves instead of expecting to be spoonfed everything.

Fully agree with you. I never had "the talk" with my parents and had as little sex-education in school as anyone else but it didn't take much to figure things out. I'd copped the basics from TV etc. Not necessarily how the pill works but some pitfalls, **** like that. One doesn't even need in-depth knowledge on a lot of things to put them into practice either.

The Cool

I think largely, schools don't make sure that all students get their education, and they should - not just in science class where you spend a chapter looking at diagrams of anatomy, but real sex ed, where you are educated about putting it in practice. As someone else said, not just learning how to make a baby, but how NOT to make a baby, and how to stay healthy, both physically and mentally.
In my secondary school for example, girls had a talk in first and third year about periods, womens issues, all that stuff. Boys had nothing. For junior cert you'd choose between Science and Home Economics and if a boy did H.E. then he just didn't get the education at all. I remember one boy who was in my class but a full year older than me who did H.E. for junior cert, and was never given any sex ed at home so got no sex ed until science class in Transition Year at the age of 16, at which point he actually could not believe that this was fact. It wasn't a catholic school either.
My OH is one of those poorly educated blokes - I think not having older sisters and stuff plays a big part too. His little sister is currently going through puberty and he hasn't a clue what's going on! We've been living together 6 months and he's learned a lot in that time - ie what the pill actually does, how not only menstruating but also ovulating changes your body, that kind of stuff. I find overall his attitude about contraception, etc quite immature just because he hasn't learned as much about it as I have.
I really think sex education needs to be properly taught, with guidelines given to teachers and schools on how to do it, and do it properly.

the_syco

sam34 wrote: »

Surely people old enough to have sex know that pregnancy is a potential outcome. Surely its not asking too much that they think to themselves "how do i avoid getting pregnant/getting someone pregnant?" and go find out.

I may have phrased that wrongly, but if the sex ed in their school is sh|te, they'll have only what they learnt off their peers, be that info true or not is a different matter altogether!

The sex ed that was given in my school (early to mid 90's) was fairly basic, but informative. It dispelled a lot of the stupid myths (some of which were really daft), and told us where we could get more info.

It's less of a case of finding out how to not get a woman pregnant, but more of a case of finding out how not to get a woman pregnant from a proper source.

Perhaps i should have phrased
"How do they seek the information if they don't know the information exists?."
as
"Why would they seek the information out if they thought they already had the information?"
instead.

cloud493

I didn't get any sex ed at all :P but I'd say I knew the basics, periods, etc. I didn't know the nitty gritty though, vaginal discharge, PMS, different stages etc, until it occurred to me that the situation will be in 4 to 5 I will need to know it.

Feathers

openup wrote: »

I'm not stereotyping anyone. I clearly stated in my first post that there are men who know more and women who know next to nothing. But generally speaking, at least in the circles I move in, most of the men seem "under-educated". When I say "men" I'm speaking in the generally.

You do realise "speaking generally" is the definition of stereotyping? Fine to do it if you like, I've no problem with people stereotyping (so long as they don't stick to prejudices afterwards).

Might be interesting to have a poll — (If there are enough men lurking on the LL to make it worthwhile ) I'm a man/woman and I knew some/all/none of the above, delete as required.

revz wrote: »

Even still, last time we were speaking about this he still insists on using a condom.
I suppose that's their choice, and if they want to take the extra precaution even though the pill is 99+% effective (with perfect use) then go for it. They're the ones missing out though

I'm not saying that your friend is right or wrong for his caution, but just as a general observation on these figures — a lot of people seem to take 99% as a colloquial term for 'almost impossible not to happen', whereas 99% in this case is used in the literal, stastistical sense: of 100 women having sex on the pill, 1 of them will still get pregnant in a year.

In my own head this still seems like a high figure — not because I don't know the effectiveness of the pill, but because of the way that figure is treated in conversations. If 1M women in Ireland were having sex on a regular basis (conservation figure, or too high?), and they all used the pill as their contraception, on average 10,000 of them would get pregnant in the next year (assuming that they're all using it correctly to begin with, which on its own is a big assumption).

Just something to keep in mind when weighing options around contraception.

tomboylady

I agree that sex education in schools is bad. We had absolutely none in our school. I think we had a talk about periods and what to expect around the time I was in 5th year but zero information otherwise.

Saying that, I took it upon myself to educate myself, as, I'm sure, plenty of other females did too. It does baffle me though how innocent (that's not the correct word... naive maybe?) some people can be when it comes to things like contraception, and the old wives tales. I knew someone who was in her early 40s and became pregnant. She couldn't understand how it happened considering she "took the pill almost every day". When I mentioned about taking it at the same time every day she honestly thought I was ripping the piss.

mood

juan.kerr wrote: »

I would have been aware of all that except this:



My guesses would be weight loss or something to do with cervical cancer?

No. For menstruation problems such as heavy/painful periods, acne.

opinion guy

revz wrote: »

I suppose that's their choice, and if they want to take the extra precaution even though the pill is 99+% effective (with perfect use) then go for it. They're the ones missing out though

(I'm speaking about this in relationships where you know your other half and their sexual health etc.)

The bit I highlighted is the most important thing you said. I have to say here, as a male, when it comes to the pill you are relying on the female to be educated enough to know what perfect use is - i.e. do they know when they are sick or on certain meds etc it doens't work ? (ok I know this thread is about male ignorance - but trust me - there is female ignorance too on this stuff).


Also, and I invite everyone to look at this, this table includes statistics for 'perfect use' and 'typical use'. I personally think the typical use statistics are the ones that should be quoted as, well, you know, they are typical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods#Comparison_table


Look in particular at the failure rates for the male condom and the OCP - sobering statistics. Also note for no contraception there is an 85% 'failure rate' i.e. pregnancy - THIS is what you want to comparing against - not 100%

mood

Surely teenagers and even some not so sure adults are not 100% dependent on parents and schools for sex education! I learned very little from both but between having a TV, magazines, newspapers, brothers and sisters and friends I picked up a little more info which prompted me to read more when the opportunity arose. Even though I grew up with no internet I knew more than most examples here as a teenager. People need to learn for themselves and read.

Oh, maybe someone could post a link to a good, reliable source of information about such issues and Boards could have it as a Notice? I could really help some people.

mood

opinion guy wrote: »

The bit I highlighted is the most important thing you said. I have to say here, as a male, when it comes to the pill you are relying on the female to be educated enough to know what perfect use is - i.e. do they know when they are sick or on certain meds etc (ok I know this thread is about male ignorance - but trust me - there is female ignorance too on this stuff).


Also, and I invite everyone to look at this, this table includes statistics for 'perfect use' and 'typical use'. I personally think the typical use statistics are the ones that should be quoted as, well, you know, they are typical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods#Comparison_table


Look in particular at the failure rates for the male condom and the OCP - sobering statistics.

Doctors and chemists also need to inform patients of the possible risks of taking some meds with the pill. Everyone should read the info before taking meds but not everyone does.

revz

opinion guy wrote: »

The bit I highlighted is the most important thing you said. I have to say here, as a male, when it comes to the pill you are relying on the female to be educated enough to know what perfect use is - i.e. do they know when they are sick or on certain meds etc it doens't work ? (ok I know this thread is about male ignorance - but trust me - there is female ignorance too on this stuff).


Also, and I invite everyone to look at this, this table includes statistics for 'perfect use' and 'typical use'. I personally think the typical use statistics are the ones that should be quoted as, well, you know, they are typical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods#Comparison_table


Look in particular at the failure rates for the male condom and the OCP - sobering statistics. Also note for no contraception there is an 85% 'failure rate' i.e. pregnancy - THIS is what you want to comparing against - not 100%

I agree, and this is where both partners knowledge of it comes in to play.
My girlfriend uses an app on her phone to remind her, alerts her at midday everyday and won't stop on the hour til she takes it and clicks "I have taken my pill today".
Like I said I did lectures on it, I'm doing pharmacy, so I know all about the interaction of medicines and the effect vomiting/diarrhoea can have. (Not saying I know everything, just I'd hope I'm a bit more knowledgeable on the subject than someone who isn't studying what I am)
There are steps that can be taken (and information from doctors/pharmacists) that can improve the compliance and get it closer to the "perfect use".

When you say as a male you're depending on the female; that's true, and I guess it's important that they demonstrate they have the knowledge so you can trust them in taking it.
If you don't have that knowledge in the first place to confirm that they know how to take it properly, you can't be fully sure either.
It's a two-way system.

At the end of all that, I can see why this thread was made, and would definitely feel sex ed. could be improved on these issues.

The chart shows us though, if you want to really avoid pregnancy, abstinence is the way to go, and that's up to you to make that choice, or go for the contraceptive measure you trust and take the 0.3-8% chance

cooperguy

I had to inform my girlfriend a few years ago that the pill had to be taken at the same time every day! There are probably plenty of stories from both sexes that show a complete lack of knowledge.

I fully agree that both partners need to be responsible for contraception at the same time though if a particular bit of information doesn't affect you day to day then its not surprising that knowledge of it isnt as widespread. Im sure there is plenty of men that dont know exactly when ovulation occurs during the month but at the same time there would be plenty of woman (I would bet) that wouldn't know much about the prostate or what that does.

Malari

cooperguy wrote: »

I had to inform my girlfriend a few years ago that the pill had to be taken at the same time every day! There are probably plenty of stories from both sexes that show a complete lack of knowledge.

That's not true for every pill. Mine has a 12 hour window, for example.

I was prescribed the pill initially for ovarian cysts.

newmug

I think half of the problem is that women themselves wont talk about these things. There's still the remnants of that Victorian attitude of "Its a womans problem / mind your own business" about the place. For example, my mother in law was giving out about someone once, saying that they arse around the house all day and do nothing. The next day, I asked her what she was up to, just to make conversation. Her reply was "you dont ask a lady about what she's been doing". WTF like? I didnt care what she was at. Either she was stung by hypocracy, and she had been sitting around the house like the person she had been giving out about, or she had been tending to "womens issues", and didnt want me to know.

But to a certain extent, I'm comfortable not knowing certain things. I hate hearing women discussing periods. I dont openly talk about my last poo. You need a certain amount of descretion with these things. Not to the point of being unknowledgable obviously, but a certain level of sensitivity around womens issues is a good thing IMO.

Either way though, if we want more openness, the Victorian attitude has to go.

miamee

newmug wrote: »

I think half of the problem is that women themselves wont talk about these things. There's still the remnants of that Victorian attitude of "Its a womans problem / mind your own business" about the place. For example, my mother in law was giving out about someone once, saying that they arse around the house all day and do nothing. The next day, I asked her what she was up to, just to make conversation. Her reply was "you dont ask a lady about what she's been doing". WTF like? I didnt care what she was at. Either she was stung by hypocracy, and she had been sitting around the house like the person she had been giving out about, or she had been tending to "womens issues", and didnt want me to know.

But to a certain extent, I'm comfortable not knowing certain things. I hate hearing women discussing periods. I dont openly talk about my last poo. You need a certain amount of descretion with these things. Not to the point of being unknowledgable obviously, but a certain level of sensitivity around womens issues is a good thing IMO.

Either way though, if we want more openness, the Victorian attitude has to go.

Hardly the same thing - on the one hand you think women aren't open enough about things but on the other hand, you don't want any details? Make up your mind.

newmug

miamee wrote: »

Hardly the same thing - on the one hand you think women aren't open enough about things but on the other hand, you don't want any details? Make up your mind.

Re-read the post. I said I want more openness, but with discretion. None of this current MYOB attitude. And yes, a period and a poo ARE equally as gross to most men.

eviltwin

newmug wrote: »

Re-read the post. I said I want more openness, but with discretion. None of this current MYOB attitude. And yes, a period and a poo ARE equally as gross to most men.

Well I think most women are savvy enough to know there is a time and place. I wouldn't talk about periods in the middle of dinner for example Most women I know are very open about it, if we have a concern we'll ask and so on. But we choose our time. I know even with my most mature male friends that sometimes its not worth talking about around them because it will decend into jokes and childish humour. Same with smears, pregnancy etc. But I think in their own company women are very open to talking about it.

Lunni

Malari wrote: »

That's not true for every pill. Mine has a 12 hour window, for example.

I was prescribed the pill initially for ovarian cysts.

You're still supposed to take it at the same time for it to be fully effective. Taking it within a 12 hour window just means it isn't considered completely missed.

miamee

newmug wrote: »

Re-read the post. I said I want more openness, but with discretion. None of this current MYOB attitude. And yes, a period and a poo ARE equally as gross to most men.

It's hard to know where to draw the line or where 'indiscretion' might begin (in a man's eyes at least). Anyway, we are getting a bit off the original topic here I think, it might be a discussion for another thread

Malari

Lunni wrote: »

You're still supposed to take it at the same time for it to be fully effective. Taking it within a 12 hour window just means it isn't considered completely missed.

Yes, it's more flexible that some other pills. It means I don't have to get up in the middle of the night to take it if I'm in a different time zone.

Morag

In fairness the lack of education effects women as well. I know one memeber of bar staff who as sent for a packet of fillopian tubes and was told they came pair, off she went to the hardware store and then there are the numerous women who had not idea why they would need a smear test or after drunken student unprotected sex would freak out and want morning after pill but not get tested for STI or HIV cos really if you were exposed enough to get pregnant the other's are also an issue.