"Man Up" campaign & the continued media erosion of men.

Zulu

So today marks the start of an anti domestic violence campaign "Man Up" by Safe Ireland.

It's great that collective responsibility is the continued response to the tiny percentage of men who perpetrate domestic violence against women & children. Clearly this warrants an attack on (all) "men". </sarcasm>

Sadly though, as Newstalk reported a tragic 46% increase on women seeking support from domestic violence, there was no inclination that the number of men increased or decreased. Nothing. In fact there was no mention of men at all.

The piece was promptly followed by an ad from the campaign: a man who controls his partner and has to "get physical". I'm sure you'll hear it soon.

So, what's my problem? Well it's Tuesday morning for one, but more importantly, my concern is that:

1. an organisation "safe Ireland" that is supposedly to representing domestic abuse support services, blatantly seems to ignores domestic violence suffered by men
2. the same organisation is painting a clear picture "men perpetrate domestic violence"; "men are responsible"

There is some good in this (of course), at least it's heightening the issues faced by one gender. However, I do fear that it continues to paint the women are victims picture.

openup

I really fail to see how it's an attack on all men. Yes it's a shame that they focus on violence against women but I don't see how highlighting that portrays all women as victims or all men as criminals. Domestic violence isn't talked about enough (at least not among younger people), so anything that puts it in peoples minds is probably a good thing, especially if it's on the increase. And, of course, the posters come from a group that combats violence against women so...?

That being said I really dislike this weird fashion for extolling the "manliness" of not beating/raping women, it's sort of skirting the issue in my opinion.

Zulu

openup wrote: »

I really fail to see how it's an attack on all men.

By continually portraying men as violent sexual predators, then all men are eventually viewed with suspicion. Essentially it's propaganda (whether intentional or not). I'm sure you can at least concede that propaganda has a proven track record?

That being said I really dislike this weird fashion for extolling the "manliness" of not beating/raping women, it's sort of skirting the issue in my opinion.

Well the implication there is that it is considered manly to beat/rape women, which of course is wholly incorrect. However, if you start from a prejudiced point that men are violent sexual predators, then it's not hard to believe that. Therein lies the problem.

smash

That link has nothing to do with safe Ireland...

seamus

openup wrote: »

I really fail to see how it's an attack on all men.

The name of the campaign is "Man Up". Clearly chosen to try and say that "Real men don't beat their partners". What it does is ignore the massive amount of domestic violence which is perpetrated by women and implies that only men are the perpetrators of domestic violence.

http://www.safeireland.ie/

The organisation basically ignores the existence of men, except as abusers of women and children. How many times does it tag the word "safety" to "women and children"?

They should be ashamed of themselves.

Zulu

smash wrote: »

That link has nothing to do with safe Ireland...

Do you really care?

"Man Up" at SafeIreland..

Jimmy Bottlehead

I'm actually pretty horrified just browsing that website... clearly the only humans who need 'safely' are women and children.

It creates such an uncomfortable image, one closely aligned to all men being potential paedophiles... I think as men, we're really given the raw end of the deal with regards how we're portrayed.

smash

Zulu wrote: »

Do you really care?

"Man Up" at SafeIreland..

Well yes, and you should too. The campaign you linked to is a different campaign tackling issues like Female Genital Mutilation and forced marriage. Neither of which happen in Ireland.

Strummerville

Dont Worry OP anyone who watches Corrie knows women beat men too.

Morag

I am livid at it, been questioning them about it on twitter, the 40 orgs under the umbrella term SAFEirleand only provide serves to straight women with kids.

Galvasean

Sharrow wrote: »

I am livid at it, been questioning them about it on twitter, the 40 orgs under the umbrella term SAFEirleand only provide serves to straight women with kids.

The website's news feed is smilarly one-sided. You'd swear there was no domestic abuse against men the way it seems to ignore it. That strikes me as a very irresponsible attitude for the campaign to have.

Morag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk8UVJdTL2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUKsHL-VBf0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e64Um5WC_FI

I get what they are trying to do but an inclusive campaign would be better, with even one video of a woman abusing her partner.

DamoKen

Sharrow wrote: »

I am livid at it, been questioning them about it on twitter, the 40 orgs under the umbrella term SAFEirleand only provide serves to straight women with kids.

Just had a look and have to say I'm shocked. Everything from the logo on blatantly ignores half the population in any sense other than the negative and only reinforces the victimisation of women and demonisation of men.

Irresponsible in the extreme. Are they government funded?

Domestic violence is a huge issue and cannot be ignored. But neither can it pick and chose who is deserving of support, and if anything minimise the already minuscule public awareness of domestic violence experienced by a not insignificant percentage of men. Do men not matter at all?

Or only in the sense that we must accept blame for something we've never done? And Man Up if we experience it ourselves? Not in the sense they meant I know but on top of everything else there the outmoded stereotypes are frustrating in the extreme!

Morag

DamoKen wrote: »

Just had a look and have to say I'm shocked. Everything from the logo on blatantly ignores half the population in any sense other than the negative and only reinforces the victimisation of women and demonisation of men.

Irresponsible in the extreme. Are they government funded?

Yes.

http://www.safeireland.ie/about-us/our-funders/

Primarily via the HSE

2008 2009 2010
HSE Children & Families 491,845 490,963 414,800

LeeHoffmann

"Safe Ireland...creating safety for women and children"
´Safe Ireland´ sounds inclusive to me, giving the impression that the campaign is targeting everyone´s well-being and safety, but the next line clarifies that safety is only an issue for some people. :rolleyes: I haven´t perused the website but clicked into the ´domestic violence services´ section. The lead question is: What supports are available for women and children? I find this a very backward attitude. By focusing only on male-on-female domestic violence, it ignores safety concerns for more than half the population (i.e. female on male, male on male, female on female domestic violence is all ignored). It ignores the people who have little to no representation and focuses exclusively on a group that is already well-represented. How can they make appeals to men to support their cause, when they demonstrate that men´s safety issues are irrelevant to them, especially given that men have such meagre representation in comparison? That seems kind of sick to me - asking men for help while insulting them and systematically ignoring their needs - a slap in the face to those who are already disempowered.

Maybe they should have to change the name of the website to make it less misleading...safe ireland? no, safe women and children.

Benny_Cake

A spokesperson from this organisation was on the lunchtime show on Radio 1 just now. The issue of violence against men was put to her and she replied that her organisation doesn't condone violence against anyone and that men who are victims of abuse should be provided with the same services as women and children. All very nice, but as an umbrella group dealing with domestic violence, why on earth wouldn't they seek to include a group such as AMEN? I don't usually let these things upset me as violence against women is an issue, but hearing that ad on the radio really annoyed me.

Ken.

I'm a man and I'm sorry.

Zulu

Them ads sicken me. It is such a lost opportunity. Even one ad to highlight emotional or physical abuse towards men would be a great help to encourage people to come forward and to diminish the stigma.

Even the title alone is a horrible thing. Yes, it could be seen as only "real men" don't abuse their partners, or whatever, but for any men who have suffered abuse at the hands of their partners (male or female), they are then told to "man up" about it.

Blowfish

Some of the stuff surrounding this on Twitter is pretty unbelievable, things like this in particular are immediately blaming men only.

Zulu

Blowfish wrote: »

Some of the stuff surrounding this on Twitter is pretty unbelievable, things like this in particular are immediately blaming men only.

Clearly this isn't meant to condone domestic violence, however, if we view this tweet through the lens of a man being abused by his partner...

"Changing the conversation around domestic violence - what did he do, not what is wrong with her" is very inappropriate.

Emeraldy Pebbles

A lot of people seem disgusted by this campaign so with any hope there'll be a big stink made about it, and the organisers will have to reconsider their stance. It's indefensible really.

Benny_Cake

Blowfish wrote: »

Some of the stuff surrounding this on Twitter is pretty unbelievable, things like this in particular are immediately blaming men only.

I'm surprised at the Rape Crisis Network. As part of a job I had a good few years back I attended a day's training with them (some of those using our services had been sexuality assaulted) and as part of it we heard the story of a man who had been raped. They struck me as humane and even-handed at the time so why they have gotten themselves involved with this cack-handed campaign is beyond me.

kayos

Sure all us men are the evil ones. Only women suffer domestic violence. Just like only women are objectified in ads and never men.....

I'm all for equal rights and equal protection of those rights but these days it seems more and more one sided. If our tax money is funding a one sided biased and non inclusive group such as safe Ireland there needs to be serious questions asked.

py2006

I hope when they say 'children' that they include male child victims too.

FrogMarch

I'm saddened to be honest. As someone who was insidiously abused by a woman with a severe, abusive personality disorder, I wish someone was there to help me. I spent the year after our breakup suffering from severe depression. The general consensus from family and friends, that I stopped trying to confide in quite quickly, was "Well I hope you learned your lesson about women like her" AKA "Serves you right"

Little did they know I didn't understand what was happening to me. I was raised naive of the concepts of gaslighting, projection and severe, abusive and insidious mental disorders.

But I'm a man. So I suppose it's my own fault :rolleyes:

eviltwin

AMEN won't be included in Safe Ireland because they give dangerous advice. I heard a story from a man who contacted them, abusive wife, had been violent in the past, there were a few guns in the house and they told him to stay put no matter what. Thats the kind of advice that can get a person killed.

Sleepy

It's stuff like this that makes me roll my eyes at most feminist organisations these days. I'll be teaching my kids to ignore such organisations and to consider them to be little more than noise pieces that distribute misandrist propaganda.

If a real egalitarian movement that seeks equal rights for all, regardless of gender should start up, I'll consider supporting it. In the meantime, I'll feel fully justified in ignoring everything put out by the womens' rights movement, whether it's sensible or not.

Benny_Cake

Sleepy wrote: »

It's stuff like this that makes me roll my eyes at most feminist organisations these days. I'll be teaching my kids to ignore such organisations and to consider them to be little more than noise pieces that distribute misandrist propaganda.

If a real egalitarian movement that seeks equal rights for all, regardless of gender should start up, I'll consider supporting it. In the meantime, I'll feel fully justified in ignoring everything put out by the womens' rights movement, whether it's sensible or not.

Well, if it's sensible, there's no need to ignore it. There are undoubtedly issues which affect women disproportionately and those which affect men disproportionately, and groups can't tackle everything at the same time. In this case though, both men and went can be the perpetrators and victims of domestic violence and abuse, something which this campaign doesn't seem to acknowledge.

The problem with stuff like this is that refuges and so on do need help and funding, but I can't see too many encountering a campaign such as "Man Up" and deciding to make a donation to the local refuge - it just puts people off and ultimately does no favours to those who are in need of such services.

eviltwin

But Safe Ireland only deal with women. Its like a gay charity doing an awareness campaign on HIV/AIDS, its not saying only gay people are at risk but is focusing on the people they represent. I wouldn't expect Amen to start talking about domestic violence against women so why would you expect Safe Ireland which is an umbrella group for all the domestic violence services aimed at women to start dealing with men??

py2006

eviltwin wrote: »

But Safe Ireland only deal with women. Its like a gay charity doing an awareness campaign on HIV/AIDS, its not saying only gay people are at risk but is focusing on the people they represent. I wouldn't expect Amen to start talking about domestic violence against women so why would you expect Safe Ireland which is an umbrella group for all the domestic violence services aimed at women to start dealing with men??

It's safe Ireland not Safe women Ireland

eviltwin

py2006 wrote: »

It's safe Ireland not Safe women Ireland

So maybe a name change is in order? Even if that happened it still wouldn't be enough for some people.

Sleepy

eviltwin wrote: »

But Safe Ireland only deal with women. Its like a gay charity doing an awareness campaign on HIV/AIDS, its not saying only gay people are at risk but is focusing on the people they represent. I wouldn't expect Amen to start talking about domestic violence against women so why would you expect Safe Ireland which is an umbrella group for all the domestic violence services aimed at women to start dealing with men??

When society divides itself into sectors and each sector fights only for it's rights, I can't see us ever getting an equal world.

Should we band together and fight for the idea, we might just get it.

Zulu

Sleepy wrote: »

When society divides itself into sectors and each sector fights only for it's rights, I can't see us ever getting an equal world.

Should we band together and fight for the idea, we might just get it.

Exactly this! We will never achieve equality for all by only representing elitist groups.

Madam_X

Saw an item about this on the news and to me it just seemed to be saying "Calling all men: as men, you are potentially physically abusive to women and children - so don't be that man." It's very pointed, biased, discriminatory and exceptionally misleading. Not to mention grossly unfair.

It's not whataboutery to object to this campaign, it's merely to make the point that awareness of domestic abuse should be created with a holistic take, because it's not a gender issue (even if it may be more experienced by women - but that includes abuse of a woman/child by a woman, not always a man) it's something that can affect anyone. Like, what about elder abuse? Domestic abuse is unfortunately not confined to abuse of a partner and/or children.

eviltwin

Zulu wrote: »

Exactly this! We will never achieve equality for all by only representing elitist groups.

I don't disagree but I don't see how that will work. I'm not sure Amen would even want to be included in an organisation like Safe Ireland. I think in this case becasue the issue of violence against men is so new and still largely going undisclosed that they would be lost in a group like Safe Ireland. I think the first thing is to build the profile of Amen and then perhaps when violence against men isn't seen as such a "novelty" then a more inclusive organisation could form.

Galvasean

eviltwin wrote:

I think in this case becasue the issue of violence against men is so new and still largely going undisclosed that they would be lost in a group like Safe Ireland. I think the first thing is to build the profile of Amen and then perhaps when violence against men isn't seen as such a "novelty" then a more inclusive organisation could form.

I'm sorry, but I've never read such a pile of hogwosh! So what, we should only support the popular charities now?

eviltwin

Galvasean wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I've never read such a pile of hogwosh! So what, we should only support the popular charities now?

I never said anything of the sort

IvySlayer

It's like the Violence Against Women Act in America....all men are presumed to be guilty. The men can never be the victim.

Madam_X

Amen exists because of the lack of recognition of the issue of abuse against men, and the fact the bigger organisations focus on abuse against women specifically and are in receipt of far more funding. An organisation that just focuses on domestic abuse full stop would help eliminate the above biases.

Galvasean

eviltwin wrote: »

I never said anything of the sort

You said a group like Amen needs to build up its profile before it could join up with something like 'Safe Ireland'. So tell me, how much bigger a profile would Amen need before 'Safe Ireland' and its supporters should take the issue of domestic abuse against men seriously?

eviltwin

Galvasean wrote: »

You said a group like Amen needs to build up its profile before it could join up with something like 'Safe Ireland'. So tell me, how much bigger a profile would Amen need before 'Safe Ireland' and its supporters should take the issue of domestic abuse against men seriously?

Who says Safe Ireland don't take violence against men seriously? They release the stats on the calls and referrals they get. They don't deny violence against men happens. But they can't report on figures they don't have access to.

Amen are one organisation, the only one I know of, that works with men. Safe Ireland is the umbrella organisation for HUNDREDS of services that work with women. Of course a small group like Amen will get lost in that mix, that doesn't do them, or the men they represent any good.

Pat Mustard

The next instalment of the Man Up campaign, showing a typical Irishman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW9CVwoQbnQ

donfers

disgraceful but predictable

i heard a piece on the matt cooper show, he didn't mention male victims once, his justification was that he was doing piece on the domestic abuse of women and that the programme has done a piece on domestic abuse against men in the past

hello you imbecile, domestic abuse is not a gender issue.....all right-thinking men and women oppose any kind of domestic abuse against men or women, more of it occurs against women but that doesn't men we should in any way ignore or segregate the make victims of domestic abuse, wrong is wrong

i know the figures suggest that a lot more young males are committing suicide than young women, but if any organisation or campaign suggested or implied that it was an exclusively male issue i would be disgusted

all victims deserve to be supported and helped, we should not segregate them based on gender

Lon Dubh

I am glad I am not the only one that is pissed off by this campaign. I am a woman but felt that it gives a misleading impression, and I really hate the expression to "Man-up" and wish people (or at least organisations) would not use it.

eviltwin wrote: »

Who says Safe Ireland don't take violence against men seriously? They release the stats on the calls and referrals they get. They don't deny violence against men happens. But they can't report on figures they don't have access to.

If they are not looking for something they are not going to find it. If a group only look at service-providers for information about domestic violence they are going to get a very skewed picture of the overall situation in the country. If most services are directed at women, then that is what they will end up collecting statistics on.

I am not arguing that there should not be research on the service users, or gender-specific research, or even possibly gender-specific campaigns, but if you only work with women, and only campaign on violence against women, and only collect statistics on violence against women, then you are going to get and more importantly possibly give a very misleading picture of what the story is in the overall population.

It is a vicious circle. If people think domestic violence only happens to women, or that it is very very rare for men, then there will be a perception that there is not much of a need for funding for services for men, or not such a need to campaign on violence against men.

This then will result in male victims remaining isolated and not coming forward, which could then give the impression that there is no need for services for men (as it looks like there are little or no male victims).

I read part of a paper on domestic violence done in the US and they found that the picture was very different when they questioned men as well as women as opposed to just women, or almost exclusively women (I cannot remember their methods, but they did some sort of population-based study, as opposed to service-user based study, or instead of just looking at cases reported to the police, as male victims are less likely to come forward and report to the police)

I was surprised that the percentage of abuse of men was quite similar to the percentage of abuse against women. They mentioned that one of the problems with a lot of previous domestic violence research was that it collected statistics from service-users which were almost always women as the services provided were for women only.

Lon Dubh

Some Irish research to back-up my point above

http://www.amen.ie/Papers/15270.htm

On Tuesday 5th July 2005 the National Crime Council (NCC), in
association with the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI), published
the first ever large scale study undertaken to give an overview of the nature,
extent and impact of domestic abuse against women and men in
intimate partner relationships in Ireland. Among the notable findings
are:

• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]15% of women and 6% of men suffer [/FONT]
  [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]severe domestic abuse[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]29% of women and 26% of men suffer [/FONT]
  [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]domestic abuse when severe and[/FONT]
  [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]minor abuse are combined[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13% of women and 13% of men suffer [/FONT]
  [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]physical abuse [/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]29% of women (1 in 3) and only 5% [/FONT]
  [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]of men (1 in 20) report to the Gardaí[/FONT]

and

the ACCORD research (2003), based on a survey of 1500 clients, found that
women were perpetrators in 30% of domestic violence cases, men were
perpetrators in 23% of cases and mutual violence accounted for 48%. An
interesting feature of this study, which involved couples attending counseling,
was that 84% of women and 74% of men agreed with their partner’s response to
this question, suggesting that the self-reported prevalence is quite
reliable.

and

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Galway GP survey, [/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 2005[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Since the NCC report, a survey of 200 patients attending a [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Galway city GP practice in August 2005 found that 1 in 3 patients surveyed had [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] experienced domestic violence in the past while 6% reported that they were [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] current victims. 18.2% of men were victims of domestic violence. Dr. Caitriona [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Waters, who carried out the survey, said “the figure of 18.2% may be an [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] underestimate. There are probably more men out there experiencing domestic [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] abuse, but it is difficult for them to volunteer this information. In addition [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] males do not attend GPs as frequently as female patients”. [/FONT]

[/FONT]

iptba

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'm surprised at the Rape Crisis Network. As part of a job I had a good few years back I attended a day's training with them (some of those using our services had been sexuality assaulted) and as part of it we heard the story of a man who had been raped. They struck me as humane and even-handed at the time so why they have gotten themselves involved with this cack-handed campaign is beyond me.

However, in that scenario, the abuser was still male. It doesn't counter-act: "what did he do, not what is wrong with her."

iptba

I think a possible contributing factor to problems in the field is the phrase "gender-based violence" with regard to domestic abuse. It seems to imply that male-on-female abuse is a systemic problem, while female-on-male abuse is some sort of oddity.

jackofalltrades

eviltwin wrote: »

But Safe Ireland only deal with women.

To put it more accurately Safe Ireland only deal with women when they're the victims of domestic violence.
They completely ignore women when they're the perpetrators of domestic violence.

Its like a gay charity doing an awareness campaign on HIV/AIDS, its not saying only gay people are at risk but is focusing on the people they represent.

A better comaprison would be Sinn Fein running a campaign against sectarian violence in North Ireland.
Showing just nationalist victims and portraying the loyalist community as the sole perpetrators.

DamoKen

eviltwin wrote: »

So maybe a name change is in order? Even if that happened it still wouldn't be enough for some people.

As has already been suggested if it's a members only club maybe that's not a bad idea.

At least this way instead of understandable confusion a man seeking help would feel their name could now like the rest of the site ignore the overwhelming evidence that men also suffer abuse and the man seeking help like so many other male victims of domestic abuse can with disappointment fade back into the shadows instead of adding to inconvenient stats.

Zulu

eviltwin wrote: »

Who says Safe Ireland don't take violence against men seriously?

However serious they take it, it's not serious enough to feature in their campaign. To this point, their campaign consists entirely of men being abusive and women being victims. Putting aside the issue of how this negatively portrays men as a whole; can women not be abused by other women? Mothers, sisters, aunts, lovers?? No??? Does this abuse not warrant a mention in their campaign? It would appear not.

...but I suppose that would fly in the face of idea that women are victims, which appears to be the crux of this campaign.

hey don't deny violence against men happens.

Sadly (least we forget) domestic abuse is far broader than violence.