The Academies

phog

danthefan wrote: »

Don't really know what ROG has to do with it, or why Clermont or Toulon or Toulouse couldn't go sign the best player from Irish schools if they felt like it.

It was an example.

I'd guess to most it was a good example. ROG is Irish and we're talking about Irish youths, he's currently employed by a French team and we're talking about the possibility of these youths heading off to the likes of French clubs. AFAIK, part of ROG's remit is being involved in the youths structure of Racing.

danthefan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I believe it was because I used ROG in the example above, rather than using Clermont, Toulon or Toulouse.

However if you like I could think of an example for each of those just in case someone is offended:

Obviously what you said isn't offensive, but you seemed to suggest this is a new threat because ROG is at Racing. That's how I interpreted your post. I'm just saying I don't see how it's a new threat at all, any French side could have at any point over the last 10 years tried to poach our academy players.

Edit - and I'll just add the reason I think they haven't is because we have a very good academy structure here. And as far as I know some sort of third level education is mandatory too so it's not just aimed at creating rugby players, it's aimed at developing people who can have a career after rugby.

jamiedav2011

danthefan wrote: »

Don't really know what ROG has to do with it, or why Clermont or Toulon or Toulouse couldn't go sign the best player from Irish schools if they felt like it.

Well besides the fact that it was an example, surely young Irish academy level players would be more likely to sign for a team with ROG & Sexton around, all else being equal.

Would certainly ease the culture shock compared to going to Montferrand or Toulon, plus, the Racing setup is supposedly top class.

Besides that, it'd be much easier for ROG to unearth talent than it would be for a French scout coming over here.
Having a legendary recent international as a scout in France is obviously a bigger threat than previously.

bamboozle

i dont think the French academies would be too focussed on Irish players as the current trend over there is to target young islanders, hence Clermont putting up the Fiji team and providing training facilities during the recent U20's, plus as most Irish players dont really hit HC standard (especially physically) till maybe 23/24 the french clubs wouldnt be as keen developing a player for 4/5/6 years until they get a return at senior level.

The young islanders are physically ready much earlier for the slog of T14

irishbucsfan

danthefan wrote: »

Obviously what you said isn't offensive, but you seemed to suggest this is a new threat because ROG is at Racing. That's how I interpreted your post. I'm just saying I don't see how it's a new threat at all, any French side could have at any point over the last 10 years tried to poach our academy players.

Edit - and I'll just add the reason I think they haven't is because we have a very good academy structure here. And as far as I know some sort of third level education is mandatory too so it's not just aimed at creating rugby players, it's aimed at developing people who can have a career after rugby.

Ah right, well I didn't mean it was because ROG is at Racing. It was just an example because he's an Irish coach in France with responsibility for recrutiment on some level. So really it was the best example available.

Jackman at Grenoble either I suppose.

My point is that if they decide to pursue our top young prospects there could be issues. And the fact our academies are good can only account for so much.

danthefan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah right, well I didn't mean it was because ROG is at Racing. It was just an example because he's an Irish coach in France with responsibility for recrutiment on some level. So really it was the best example available.

Jackman at Grenoble either I suppose.

My point is that if they decide to pursue our top young prospects there could be issues. And the fact our academies are good can only account for so much.

Yeah, tbh I'm just not sure. I think young Irish players are best off in Ireland for a host of reasons and they probably know that.

irishbucsfan

danthefan wrote: »

Yeah, tbh I'm just not sure. I think young Irish players are best off in Ireland for a host of reasons and they probably know that.

I think so too to be fair. And I think the college element and the national representation element are great. I think we'll be alright.

But if you're Billy Dardis and you are approached by a French club and offered a lot of money... That might not be enough on its own, but if you do your academy training in France before you are 24, you become JIFF and could considerably increase your earning potential in future by being fully eligible both at Irish provinces and at French clubs. You could play full time in the Top 14 as a fully eligible "French" player while playing for Ireland. That is a strong position to be in from a business sense. Then imagine Toulouse say to our Dardis/McGrath/Fitzgerald that they will be given allowances for 3rd level education and they are also free to play underage rugby for Ireland...

They don't even have to successfully sign our players, just the idea of them approaching them at all will considerably raise the cost of recruitment out of schools. And French clubs could well be forced down that route by the JIFF rules, I'd imagine it's much easier to look at British and Irish schools than Samoan ones.

If I was representing Irish players I'd be fielding offers from France anyway.

danthefan

Just been thinking there, I think there was a young Scottish centre over at Clermont (Bennett maybe?), but I can't think of anyone other academy players from the home nations over in France. He's actually moved back to Scotland now.

I don't really think the scenario you've outlined is even close to likely for the majority of players. There are no guarantees at all and if you represented a player and told him all this great stuff was going to happen if he moved to France, you'd be doing him a massive disservice imo.

Is there even any concrete indication French sides are interested in taking players from our schools?

irishbucsfan

danthefan wrote: »

Just been thinking there, I think there was a young Scottish centre over at Clermont (Bennett maybe?), but I can't think of anyone other academy players from the home nations over in France. He's actually moved back to Scotland now.

I don't really think the scenario you've outlined is even close to likely for the majority of players. There are no guarantees at all and if you represented a player and told him all this great stuff was going to happen if he moved to France, you'd be doing him a massive disservice imo.

Is there even any concrete indication French sides are interested in taking players from our schools?

I dont understand how informing young players about JIFF rules and offering them better contracts is doing them a disservice?

Theres no evidence of it beyond mumblings. You have guys like Bennett and Guy Armitage and a couple others going over from the UK but they're not really the same.

I don't think it'd ever happen on a large scale but I wouldn't be surprised if schools prodigies are approached in future, its a natural evolution of the business.

danthefan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I dont understand how informing young players about JIFF rules and offering them better contracts is doing them a disservice?

Theres no evidence of it beyond mumblings. You have guys like Bennett and Guy Armitage and a couple others going over from the UK but they're not really the same.

I don't think it'd ever happen on a large scale but I wouldn't be surprised if schools prodigies are approached in future, its a natural evolution of the business.

Because coming out of school it's still too early to tell if a player is going to be able for professional rugby full stop, never mind filling their head with stories of playing for Ireland while being a "French" player. At their age I don't even think money should be the primary concern. I'd say they'd be maximising their chances of long term earnings by staying in Ireland in their development years.

Anyway I think I'll leave it there, we're arguing over a complete hypothetical, we each have our opinions.

Tox56

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Well besides the fact that it was an example, surely young Irish academy level players would be more likely to sign for a team with ROG & Sexton around, all else being equal.

This is an interesting idea, a good current example I could think of was Ross Byrne, St Michaels 10 last year. Classy player who was very impressive in the schools final and for Ireland u18. He wasn't picked up for the Leinster academy this year (probably rightly so) and wouldn't be conidered a superstar in the Conway/Fitzgerald mould, but would have great potential all the same. Surely in this Racing example it would appeal greatly to him to work with ROG/Sexton along with all the other potential bonues if Racing were to approach him. All totally hypothetical of course but if this stuff hasn't happened already I wouldn't be surprised if we see it start to creep in.

the perfect ten

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If there was an academy in 96/97 Murphy would have been in it.

If we are not picking up guys who we should be then that is our own fault. I wouldn't be worried about that, I'd be more worried about French/English clubs coming over to Senior Cup players and offering them 50/60k academy contracts. Even if our guys aren't signing them, they'll drive the cost of running the academy through the roof. I'm sure some of it goes on already.

My understanding - and I stand to be corrected - is that the French clubs usually offer either an academy contract which includes accommodation and a monthly allowance for food and transport payable on the basis of receipts OR they offer a pro-contract. Once in an academy - which is a three year stint - if you perform really well then you can get a pro-contract up to a maximum set by the French League (LNR) of 50k but you still remain an academy player. The reason for this is that if you complete the three year academy cycle you count as a home-produced player for the French quota system (the JIFF).

I understand that there are exceptions to this for young players who have already played senior rugby at a high level in another country but for players coming straight out of school they would only be offered the standard academy contract.

the perfect ten

Just as an addition to my last post. It is requirement of the academy system in France that all players are provided with an educational component at an appropriate standard. For French players this would usually be a third-level course, but for many of the foreign players the club starts by putting them on a French language course which the player must complete successfully. The club pays all the fees for these courses. For each year that a player is in an academy he must be on a course of some sort.

Hype710

Any word on Tom Farrell?

lurtz

Hype710 wrote: »

Any word on Tom Farrell?

99% sure saw him training with the leinster academy the other day

lurtz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3OUw2lDSqY

great to see emphasis on it at a young level

JagerScout

some familiar faces there

Hype710

lurtz wrote: »

99% sure saw him training with the leinster academy the other day

That would be great news. 3 12s in the academy already so great to supplement them with a natural 13.

phog

Interesting to see that Toulon have signed another Armitage brother to their squad - an 18yo from LI Academy.

From twitter:

Murray Kinsella ‏@Murray_Kinsella 13m Toulon have signed a fourth Armitage brother. This time it's 18-year-old Joel, a prop from the London Irish academy. #RCT #Armitage

.ak

A fourth? Who was the third? Delon, Stefon, and..?

Glass Prison 1214

.ak wrote: »

A fourth? Who was the third? Delon, Stefon, and..?

Third one is a centre called Guy Armitage.

jamiedav2011

Glass Prison 1214 wrote: »

Third one is a centre called Guy Armitage.

He's LI isn't he?

Glass Prison 1214

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

He's LI isn't he?

He is now but last season he was at Toulon I believe.

jamiedav2011

Glass Prison 1214 wrote: »

He is now but last season he was at Toulon I believe.

Unless I'm mixing them up, I think I remember seeing him score a try for LI last year against London Welsh?

Foxtrol

I vaguely remember there was some sort of loan deal or something similar. (Could be completely making this up).

Glass Prison 1214

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Unless I'm mixing them up, I think I remember seeing him score a try for LI last year against London Welsh?

Ye Toulon signed him, he wasn't getting game time so they loaned him back to LI. He has signed for LI again for this season.

Hagz

Bevon, Guy, Steffon, Delon and now Joel?! Some rugby family.

Morf

Or just keeping Steffon and Delon sweet . . .

JagerScout

Tom Farrell joined the Leinster Academy.

Stanza2

Does that mean Sub Academy or full?