The Academies

lurtz

ormond lad wrote: »

yep. confirmed last night when he was training in Nenagh
Best of luck to him. Wonder why he didn't get a shot with Munster..

presumably cos they feel Lyons offers more?

RuPi wrote: »

Rumours on twitter that Jerry Sexton and Rory Kavanagh are to join Auch's academy in D2 in France

theyre over there at the moment on espoir contracts

JagerScout

RuPi wrote: »

Rumours on twitter that Jerry Sexton and Rory Kavanagh are to join Auch's academy in D2 in France

good move for both of them, wish them luck

JagerScout

Lorcan Dow(LI/Exile) who played Ireland Under-18 Club at 8 is with Ulster currently. Guessing he joined the academy but nothing officially announced.

RuPi

Ulster tend to always have a few boys over for this stage of the prep towards the inter pros's, some end up playing in the inter pros's such as Jake Caufield last year and some just return to England if deemed not good enough for inter pro rugby.

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny

lurtz wrote: »

presumably cos they feel Lyons offers more?



theyre over there at the moment on espoir contracts

Having seen O Leary play this year i dunno how he's been let slip through the Irish set up. Top scorer in JWRT.Put in a sterling display for YM on debut in Castle Avenue and went over for a great try. Came off the bench for G'owen game and scored a cracking solo effort with 1st touch burning Munster winger Ronan O Mahoney and others to the line. Beat ROM with a step and skint him to the posts. Guy is a natural talent that was under utilized by YM last season and should be in some academy in this country.

JagerScout

didn't even start for munster under 20s.

lurtz

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny wrote: »

Having seen O Leary play this year i dunno how he's been let slip through the Irish set up. Top scorer in JWRT.Put in a sterling display for YM on debut in Castle Avenue and went over for a great try. Came off the bench for G'owen game and scored a cracking solo effort with 1st touch burning Munster winger Ronan O Mahoney and others to the line. Beat ROM with a step and skint him to the posts. Guy is a natural talent that was under utilized by YM last season and should be in some academy in this country.

the shame is it quite regularly happens that a huge amount of supremely talented individuals slip through the net in Ireland because of the number of places and other factors

RobbieRuns

JagerScout wrote: »

Lorcan Dow(LI/Exile) who played Ireland Under-18 Club at 8 is with Ulster currently. Guessing he joined the academy but nothing officially announced.

Very good player Dow, saw him play for the Irish Clubs and was very good in the game were they beat England. Would be good enough for the interpros definitely at U19.

Can be hard to get an academy contract though, look at players like Bercis who was U18 and 19 international and did not get one or McGuigan the prop who played well in this years U20 he is still in England after not getting one over here. Especially coming from U18 level it would be tough, young O'Hagan who had two years with the Irish clubs did not get anything and I thought he was the best exile prospect, thought that Ulster would have offered him something with his connections, but apparently not. Dave Panter the U20 winger did get one with Connacht though after the world cup. Fair play to Dow hope he goes well.

lurtz

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Very good player Dow, saw him play for the Irish Clubs and was very good in the game were they beat England. Would be good enough for the interpros definitely at U19.

Can be hard to get an academy contract though, look at players like Bercis who was U18 and 19 international and did not get one or McGuigan the prop who played well in this years U20 he is still in England after not getting one over here. Especially coming from U18 level it would be tough, young O'Hagan who had two years with the Irish clubs did not get anything and I thought he was the best exile prospect, thought that Ulster would have offered him something with his connections, but apparently not. Dave Panter the U20 winger did get one with Connacht though after the world cup. Fair play to Dow hope he goes well.

Im sure McGuigan is happy enough being in the full Falcons squad and never thought much of Bercis anyway,think hes staying with Bedford.

RobbieRuns

lurtz wrote: »

Im sure McGuigan is happy enough being in the full Falcons squad and never thought much of Bercis anyway,think hes staying with Bedford.

Fair point Lurtz, I am sure that he is happy at Newcastle. However he was looking for a place in an academy over here a few years ago and if he is serious about a future in green, his chances would be better playing over here for one of the provinces rather than the Falcons. McGuigan is a great player in a tough position in the scrum, I am sure that he will do well where ever he is.

Sorry that you do not think highly of Bercis, but he did play international rugby for two of our representative teams for two years in a row which is a good achievement for the young fella, so he can't be a bad player.

My point which maybe I made badly was that it is really hard to get an academy spot, especially straight from U18. Lots of U20 boys who do well don't even get them. I was also trying to wish young Dow well if he has got in and stay upbeat about young men who are trying to forge a future in their rugby careers

the perfect ten

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Fair point Lurtz, I am sure that he is happy at Newcastle. However he was looking for a place in an academy over here a few years ago and if he is serious about a future in green, his chances would be better playing over here for one of the provinces rather than the Falcons. McGuigan is a great player in a tough position in the scrum, I am sure that he will do well where ever he is.

Sorry that you do not think highly of Bercis, but he did play international rugby for two of our representative teams for two years in a row which is a good achievement for the young fella, so he can't be a bad player.

My point which maybe I made badly was that it is really hard to get an academy spot, especially straight from U18. Lots of U20 boys who do well don't even get them. I was also trying to wish young Dow well if he has got in and stay upbeat about young men who are trying to forge a future in their rugby careers

I think it is great to see more and more young players who do not manage to get into the academy of one of the provincial sides - where there is a real logjam - being prepared to go either to England or, as is now beginning to happen, to France.

As far as concerns about hampering one's chances of getting a green jersey I think for such players at 19, 20 or 21 the real priority is just to try to get a professional contract. After that, anything can happen if you turn out to be good enough.

backgreen

the perfect ten wrote: »

I think it is great to see more and more young players who do not manage to get into the academy of one of the provincial sides - where there is a real logjam - being prepared to go either to England or, as is now beginning to happen, to France.

As far as concerns about hampering one's chances of getting a green jersey I think for such players at 19, 20 or 21 the real priority is just to try to get a professional contract. After that, anything can happen if you turn out to be good enough.

i agree.. with only four pro teams there was always going to be a logjam now that the academies are running full trottle,talent is always going to slip through the net in ireland and the french will be there to catch it...with the irish coaching influence of o gara ,jackman and prendergast now in france more are going to go...i think shane o leary will out shine JJ in the long run...

lurtz

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Fair point Lurtz, I am sure that he is happy at Newcastle. However he was looking for a place in an academy over here a few years ago and if he is serious about a future in green, his chances would be better playing over here for one of the provinces rather than the Falcons. McGuigan is a great player in a tough position in the scrum, I am sure that he will do well where ever he is.

Sorry that you do not think highly of Bercis, but he did play international rugby for two of our representative teams for two years in a row which is a good achievement for the young fella, so he can't be a bad player.

My point which maybe I made badly was that it is really hard to get an academy spot, especially straight from U18. Lots of U20 boys who do well don't even get them. I was also trying to wish young Dow well if he has got in and stay upbeat about young men who are trying to forge a future in their rugby careers

yeah I follow you. Maybe a bit harsh on Bercis he's decent but maybe he realised he didnt have much of a shot at 20s with Leavy,Timmons O'Donoghue,Moloney and others coming through.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/jerry-sexton-follows-illustrious-brother-in-making-france-switch-238029.html

good article from the oracle murray kinsella about the movements

RuPi

The fact players are leaving Ireland and getting deals in France and England is surely showing that the sub academy and academy structure is working as we are developing more professional rugby players? There will still be a couple who miss the net and don't become pro rugby players and just remain good rugby players but that is certainly less than in the past.

Stanza2

I agree that it is a real achievement to get a full or sub academy place in any of our four professional teams and hard not just because of the financial constraints in the provinces but mostly because of the standard. I also think that it is fantastic that so many have opportunities to go abroad, the English game will look at them and now the French and possibly Italian teams might look at some of our lads, that also is testament to just how high our standards have become.

Everyone is looking for the best young talent and we have plenty of that. Getting contracts is hard at any level, I hope to see lots of young lads playing AIL more over the next few years too

irishbucsfan

It's brilliant so long as we keep the ones we want. If Billy Dardis had signed for Grenoble it wouldn't be so brilliant!

Stanza2

As long as we pick the right ones I would say, we have some great talents coming through. There will always be ones that we do not think are good enough and they will not get places in Irish academies, but would be very keen to prove people wrong. Geordy Murphy would be a good example? Rejected by Leinster and wrote to Leicester? I think he proved a few people wrong. I hope Dardis is as good as most people in Leinster think he is, it is a great achievement to get a place so young.

JagerScout

Geordan Murphy was not rejected by Leinster.

bamboozle

JagerScout wrote: »

Geordan Murphy was not rejected by Leinster.

he was overlooked for Irish schools and spent his first season out of newbridge playing dual status with Waterpark in the AIL and Leinster league with Naas. I dont think Leinster thought he was destined for great things, at the same time there was no such thing as an academy back then, the likes of Girvan Dempsey, BOD, Ciaran Scally, Darcy, Shane Horgan and Mark McHugh were brought into the Leinster senior fold at an early age, others were hoping to make their mark for the Irish universities and Irish colleges teams and step up to AIL level.

A lot of good players were falling through the cracks at this time.

irishbucsfan

If there was an academy in 96/97 Murphy would have been in it.

If we are not picking up guys who we should be then that is our own fault. I wouldn't be worried about that, I'd be more worried about French/English clubs coming over to Senior Cup players and offering them 50/60k academy contracts. Even if our guys aren't signing them, they'll drive the cost of running the academy through the roof. I'm sure some of it goes on already.

lurtz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If there was an academy in 96/97 Murphy would have been in it.

If we are not picking up guys who we should be then that is our own fault. I wouldn't be worried about that, I'd be more worried about French/English clubs coming over to Senior Cup players and offering them 50/60k academy contracts. Even if our guys aren't signing them, they'll drive the cost of running the academy through the roof. I'm sure some of it goes on already.

not sure if a 60k academy contract exists,dont really think any club would offer that sort of money to a 6th year. That said I hear Ospreys do pay big money to their academy players and the lads in Grenoble are on more than their Irish conuterparts,so you could be in the ballpark

Stanza2

Geordy Murphy was an example only of a player that was not picked up by Irish schools or made any offer from his home province, just meant that he slipped thro the net. There was probably only an Irish academy then and not a Leinster one. It is very hard to judge when players are so young, like was said previously, I hope we pick the right players. Sometimes players who have Dardis was probably offered a deal to keep him here rather than lose him to some foreign club who would have picked him up for sure. The 60k remark is about 10 times more than any academy player would get in this country!

lurtz

Chris Fagan,ex leinster 19s and st michaels cup winning winner has signed for Ealing in the Championship from Tarf

irishbucsfan

lurtz wrote: »

st michaels cup winning winner

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If there was an academy in 96/97 Murphy would have been in it.

If we are not picking up guys who we should be then that is our own fault. I wouldn't be worried about that, I'd be more worried about French/English clubs coming over to Senior Cup players and offering them 50/60k academy contracts. Even if our guys aren't signing them, they'll drive the cost of running the academy through the roof. I'm sure some of it goes on already.

50/60k for an Academy contract? Are you just using that to prove your point (a point I agree with) or is do Academy contracts of this size really exist in France? Some of you may know better than me but is that not more than some full provincial contracts in Ireland?

irishbucsfan

bilston wrote: »

50/60k for an Academy contract? Are you just using that to prove your point (a point I agree with) or is do Academy contracts of this size really exist in France? Some of you may know better than me but is that not more than some full provincial contracts in Ireland?

Oh no I'm just using it as an example. I'd doubt they're that big.

But I could see a situation where for example Racing say to ROG, "here's a chunk of cash, go sign the best player in Irish schools rugby for our academy." We've never really been threatened in thay way before.

phog

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Oh no I'm just using it as an example. I'd doubt they're that big.

But I could see a situation where for example Racing say to ROG, "here's a chunk of cash, go sign the best player in Irish schools rugby for our academy." We've never really been threatened in thay way before.

This is something I suggested might happen when the academies started taking in and producing so many players, the glut would have to head off to foreign clubs, now it looks like the lads not making the academies may be picked up and heading off for a better lifestyle and possibly more money

Could the players that show more potential now be tempted to turn down an Irish Academy spot for a place in England or France.

Stanza2

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Oh no I'm just using it as an example. I'd doubt they're that big.

But I could see a situation where for example Racing say to ROG, "here's a chunk of cash, go sign the best player in Irish schools rugby for our academy." We've never really been threatened in thay way before.

I don't think that ROG would do that....... Seriously. Young lads also have college and university, education to think of, parents still play a part in decisions for their sons. I could not see young lads being enticed by foreign chequebooks.

However if there were lads who were not being offered places by provinces and wanted to try and make it abroad then why not? To still play for U20's in first few years after school you are better off in the Irish system, after that if let go by Irish academies or if no places are offered and they feel that they are good enough then I don't see anything wrong with going abroad.

danthefan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Oh no I'm just using it as an example. I'd doubt they're that big.

But I could see a situation where for example Racing say to ROG, "here's a chunk of cash, go sign the best player in Irish schools rugby for our academy." We've never really been threatened in thay way before.

Don't really know what ROG has to do with it, or why Clermont or Toulon or Toulouse couldn't go sign the best player from Irish schools if they felt like it.

irishbucsfan

danthefan wrote: »

Don't really know what ROG has to do with it, or why Clermont or Toulon or Toulouse couldn't go sign the best player from Irish schools if they felt like it.

I believe it was because I used ROG in the example above, rather than using Clermont, Toulon or Toulouse.

However if you like I could think of an example for each of those just in case someone is offended:

But I could see a situation where for example Clermont say to Cotter, "here's a chunk of cash, go sign the best player in Irish schools rugby for our academy." We've never really been threatened in thay way before.

But I could see a situation where for example Toulon say to Mignoni, "here's a chunk of cash, go sign the best player in Irish schools rugby for our academy." We've never really been threatened in thay way before.

But I could see a situation where for example Toulouse say to Elissalde, "here's a chunk of cash, go sign the best player in Irish schools rugby for our academy." We've never really been threatened in thay way before.