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Getting People of different sizes fit
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23-11-2012 9:24pm#1
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It doesn't.KeithReilly wrote: »Well initially I was thinking this might have applied to any sport,
Size has virtually no bearing on this at all. Well not in the manner you are talking about.but to be more specific to my own interests I would say be fit enough to play Gaelic football at a level where fitness is as good as the top 5-10% of players that you will meet.
Easily. It is measured all the time.How can this actually be measured?
It can...and it is.I'm not too sure that it could.
They are tests...there are much better and much more specific ones.But if we're measuring the fitness of player X and Y using a number of tests, I'll name a few but maybe you or someone else can think of more appropriate tests for Gaelic footballers. The tests could be 25 metre sprint, 5k run, beep test or a more appropriate agility test and standing long jump. All tests that could be carried out on the football field.
Nope...that's a false assumption.I'm thinking the lighter player will reach higher standards on the tests and display higher levels of fitness in football matches quicker than the heavier player but the heavier player will eventually catch up.
Nope...that's another false assumption.The heavier player will also lose fitness quicker if for any reason they both had to stop and do no training for a period of time, partly as a result of this the lighter player will regain the level of fitness they had before the break more quickly.
I don't know about simplifying...what you are describing just doesn't happen.I might be simplifying it too much by just saying lighter footballers get fit quicker.
Nope....that's another false assumption.Also is it the case that lighter footballers should also have an advantage with regard to agility?
Next question
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In what manner does size prove a factor?Will Heffernan wrote: »It doesn't.
Size has virtually no bearing on this at all. Well not in the manner you are talking about.
How is it measured all the time?Will Heffernan wrote: »Easily. It is measured all the time.
What sort of tests are better and more specific?Will Heffernan wrote: »It can...and it is.
They are tests...there are much better and much more specific ones.Will Heffernan wrote: »I don't know about simplifying...what you are describing just doesn't happen.
Nope....that's another false assumption.
Next question
What are the factors that determine the different rates that players get fit of they both start from the same level of fitness and follow the same fitness programme and put in the same effort (the same effort is probably something that is hard to measure)
Do you think different players different players need different amounts of training? again using our Player X and Player Y, and now lets presume Player Y has started at a lower base of fitness as measured by more specific fitness tests, will he now need to train more often in order to catch up with Player X or is it just a matter of starting at the same time and maybe reaching a good level of fitness at a later stage.
How would you approach energy systems training for Gaelic football?
Are there any specific areas of fitness that need to be trained more than others?
What do you believe is the right amount of time that should be spent in one training session, training fitness?0 -
Firstly, great questions and well worth discussing.
Lets be specific about what you mean as fitness? Again I am going to assume you are talking about cardiovascular fitness but I don't want to go off on a ramble and for you to say...'Ahhhh...no, that's not what I meant.'.KeithReilly wrote: »In what manner does size prove a factor?
You tell me what you want to measure and I will tell you what I think is the best way to measure it.How is it measured all the time?
It depends what you want to measure and what sport you are measuring it in. If you get specific with your questions I will be happy to be super specific with my answers.What sort of tests are better and more specific?
As I've been saying....be specific. As an aside...one of the issues in GAA in Ireland in short is the inconsistency of testing....let me tell you what happens from the highest level all the way down (from what I've seen and know...in the knowledge that I've not seen and don't know everything but have seen a good bit in the past from county level down to the top club level teams.)What are the factors that determine the different rates that players get fit of they both start from the same level of fitness and follow the same fitness programme and put in the same effort (the same effort is probably something that is hard to measure)
The testing is inconsistent...in that different trainers/managers use different tests....that these tests are done inconstantly and irregularly and that the testing isn't acted upon....so essentially most of the testing that is done in Ireland is worthless and the only positive effect it has is that the players expect to be tested and that this expectation is met.
Absolutely.Do you think different players different players need different amounts of training?
Absolutely.again using our Player X and Player Y, and now lets presume Player Y has started at a lower base of fitness as measured by more specific fitness tests, will he now need to train more often in order to catch up with Player X
Athletes respond differently to different training stimulus but that this variation isn't size dependent.or is it just a matter of starting at the same time and maybe reaching a good level of fitness at a later stage.
I could write a book on that.How would you approach energy systems training for Gaelic football?
It is about balancing training stimulus to allow for specification for individual athletes within a team environment.Are there any specific areas of fitness that need to be trained more than others?
I always try to make all my fitness work sport specific. I've some stuff on training for GAA I'll have a look for it later PM you some links and you can take a look and ask some more questionsWhat do you believe is the right amount of time that should be spent in one training session, training fitness? 0 -
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Will Heffernan wrote: »Agreed.
Although as with all sports the real art is in getting the balance just right between all the physical capacities needed to perform well...all players have a balance of these that is different and particular to them...but a lot of the general traits are shared.
Just from a running perspective you need/have a mix of the following:
Power
Acceleration
Agility
Speed
Speed Endurance/Repeatability
Endurance
By testing each of these fitness components you then create an appropriate fitness test for gaelic football?
Possible tests:
Power - vertical jump or standing long jump ( i say standing long jump as its easier to implement( certainly at club level, the measurement taken is greater and therefore differences easier to see.
Acceleration - 10m run - speed gates needed?
Agility - something like spider test?
Speed - 50m run - again speed gates needed?
Speed Endurance/Repeatability - something like the 150s?, shuttle runs @5,10,15,20,25 (you cover 150mtrs if you complete) 6x30sec on, & off for 30secs
Endurance - 3km run?Will Heffernan wrote: »Everyone has these...some players have more of the former and less of the latter or vice versa. Some players excel through power and speed while others through their ability to sustain a high effort and work rate when others fade.
How do you implement this in practice, at intercounty level you've got maybe 30 players and the differences are unlikely to be as big between players but where there are differences I think in most places players are so dedicated that they will go anyway and follow an indiviual programme.
At club level, the differences are likely to be bigger. you could have a lad training with county team and who has a high level of every fitness component you are testing and then you have "Paddy" the player who could be a county player if he'd just put in more effort at training and get himself fit and is not likely to do any individual programme and if asked is he following the programme is probably going to ask " what station is it on?"
How do you allow for these differences where you have 30 players to manage and you know that outside of team training little to nothing is going to be done by the majority of players. Is it a case of throwing a bit of everything at it and hoping for the best, as seems to be the case with a load of football trainers.
As far as keeping things specific to the sport and always using the ball, do you think that this can go too far. You can only train intensely with the ball for so long and training with the ball the whole time is as bad as not using the ball at all, in my opinion. Getting the balance right is key.
In the first few weeks of training and at the start of the season and then more often than not its forgotten about.Will Heffernan wrote: »1. When do most GAA teams...county right down to club level do their testing?Will Heffernan wrote: »2. What is the most important time of the year competitively?
Championship. At intercouny level this would be from May onwards, at club level this could be as early as March or April and then start again after county is knocked out or it could be July/August when the county is knocked out.Will Heffernan wrote: »Do you see where these questions are leading us?
Is it that fitness testing should be regular and that fitness testing around championship is possibly one of the more crucial times to test?
Should you test just before championship, and if so how soon before?
Should you test during championship in order to see if players playing regularly are being burnt out or need more rest and to see if fringe players fitness levels are dropping and they need extra training?
I have often seen where strength and conditioning coaches fitness test every four weeks regardless of what is happening outside of training. So for example the team plays a tough league game on the Sunday close to championship, intesity is high. Fitness test takes place on Tuesday regardless, tests may show some players fitness levels have dropped in last four weeks. When would the appropriate time to test be if there is another game the following Saturday and every weekend for the coming 6-8 weeks.Will Heffernan wrote: »I saw 3km time trial, beep test and vertical jump data from a mid table AFL team about 3 weeks ago that dated back to 1996....that's every player from junior to senior for every team with this club for the last 16 years. The testing goes back further but from the start of the 1996 season it is consistent and complete.
The 3km time trial has been used for as long as I have ever been involved in sport and testing....I did my first one as a scholarship athlete in 1987...same with the beep test and same with the vertical jump. They are good solid reliable and reproducible tests that measure the capacities that are being looked for...simple.
Is the thing here not that the tests are particularly specific but that they are consistent from year to year and therefore you have something to measure players progression by. this would be particulary useful where you could map the progress or decline in a player as he ages.Will Heffernan wrote: »Meaning that although you have a team it is comprised of individuals and a one size fits all program will never be the 'best' way to train a team. You need a plan that allows for some individualisation.
How would you go about implementing this where you have 30 players of various fitness levels? fatties in this corner, slow coaches in this corner, weaklings over here etc 0 -
Bingo.KeithReilly wrote: »By testing each of these fitness components you then create an appropriate fitness test for gaelic football?
They look like good tests to me.Possible tests:
Power - vertical jump or standing long jump ( i say standing long jump as its easier to implement( certainly at club level, the measurement taken is greater and therefore differences easier to see.
Acceleration - 10m run - speed gates needed?
Agility - something like spider test?
Speed - 50m run - again speed gates needed?
Speed Endurance/Repeatability - something like the 150s?, shuttle runs @5,10,15,20,25 (you cover 150mtrs if you complete) 6x30sec on, & off for 30secs
Endurance - 3km run?
I wouldn't even use them all.
I would pick the ones that you could easily and reliably conduct.
Just some thoughts off the top of my head.
1. The power and acceleration tests are likely to have a high degree of correlation...so pick one.
2. At club level...beep tests/spider tests I think are unreliable because of the numbers you are trying to test and because players cheat. A 3km is easily to conduct and reliable.
3. A vertical jump test (you can use a bag of chalk and a wall) and a 3km time trial would serve as good 'measures' at club level. Plus...having players train to get better at these would only benefit the team. Also...it would be easily conducted right through the season...from pre season all the way through to during championship.
True. At county level you still have 'power' players at one end of the spectrum and the 'energiser bunnies' at the other end. You want to expose each to a little of the other but ideally you want to maximise players strengths more than you want to minimise their weaknesses. What they are ****e at they will always be ****e at but if you spend all your time trying to fix that you will also make them ****e at what they were good at...I've seen so much of that in GAA and rugby in Ireland it still makes me cry to this day.How do you implement this in practice, at intercounty level you've got maybe 30 players and the differences are unlikely to be as big between players but where there are differences I think in most places players are so dedicated that they will go anyway and follow an indiviual programme.
Yeah...that I can't help you with.At club level, the differences are likely to be bigger. you could have a lad training with county team and who has a high level of every fitness component you are testing and then you have "Paddy" the player who could be a county player if he'd just put in more effort at training and get himself fit and is not likely to do any individual programme and if asked is he following the programme is probably going to ask " what station is it on?"
Coaching is a cross between science and art...you need to have the scientific understanding of the principles and the artistic flair to implement them.How do you allow for these differences where you have 30 players to manage and you know that outside of team training little to nothing is going to be done by the majority of players. Is it a case of throwing a bit of everything at it and hoping for the best, as seems to be the case with a load of football trainers.
Universities pump out tonnes of graduates...I remember someone tell me one time that the most likely first job for a UL sports science graduate was in construction.
You can have all the science in the world...but if you don't have the people skills and the flair to apply it...you are going no where.
It is hard...I don't have the answers to all your questions.
I absolutely agree. I always use the ball where I can. I will get onto the youtubes...I think I have a series of videos up with footballers, hurlers, camogie, basketball, rugby and soccer players all doing the same drill...just with the appropriate piece of equipment.As far as keeping things specific to the sport and always using the ball, do you think that this can go too far. You can only train intensely with the ball for so long and training with the ball the whole time is as bad as not using the ball at all, in my opinion. Getting the balance right is key.
Correct.In the first few weeks of training and at the start of the season and then more often than not its forgotten about.
Correct.Championship. At intercouny level this would be from May onwards, at club level this could be as early as March or April and then start again after county is knocked out or it could be July/August when the county is knocked out.
Correct.Is it that fitness testing should be regular and that fitness testing around championship is possibly one of the more crucial times to test?
Testing is always competitive and a solid sub 12 minute effort hit out is not going to do anything but help players fitness.Should you test just before championship, and if so how soon before?
Absolutely.Should you test during championship in order to see if players playing regularly are being burnt out or need more rest and to see if fringe players fitness levels are dropping and they need extra training?
Like I said...a vertical jump and a max effort 3km would be a great training stimulus pretty much any time during the year.I have often seen where strength and conditioning coaches fitness test every four weeks regardless of what is happening outside of training. So for example the team plays a tough league game on the Sunday close to championship, intesity is high. Fitness test takes place on Tuesday regardless, tests may show some players fitness levels have dropped in last four weeks. When would the appropriate time to test be if there is another game the following Saturday and every weekend for the coming 6-8 weeks.
Absolutely.Is the thing here not that the tests are particularly specific but that they are consistent from year to year and therefore you have something to measure players progression by. this would be particulary useful where you could map the progress or decline in a player as he ages.
That as I said comes down to coaching. I always group players based on ability so what you are suggesting above isn't too far off the mark.How would you go about implementing this where you have 30 players of various fitness levels? fatties in this corner, slow coaches in this corner, weaklings over here etc0 -
Will Heffernan wrote: »
True. At county level you still have 'power' players at one end of the spectrum and the 'energiser bunnies' at the other end. You want to expose each to a little of the other but ideally you want to maximise players strengths more than you want to minimise their weaknesses. What they are ****e at they will always be ****e at but if you spend all your time trying to fix that you will also make them ****e at what they were good at...I've seen so much of that in GAA and rugby in Ireland it still makes me cry to this day.
So can I take it that you would try to ensure that a player maintained if not improved whatever his strengths were and increases on his weaknesses or hit some sort of standards on his weaknesses which allowed these weaknesses not be such an issue that he could use his strengths as an advantage. ( this feels like a cumbersome explanation
) I'll use an example instead:
Little Johnny is super fit and covers loads of ground but he is also quite weak and gets pushed off the ball. We need Little Johnny to become stronger and possibly bigger but not lose his aerobic fitness. So we need him still to hit the 3km times he's being hitting but we need him stronger.
How do we set standards for these tests so that we know where the team stands outside of the goldfish bowl, we might have players that have gotten fitter compared to what they were or have got everyone to a standard above what we considered good but how to we compare outside of our own pool of players. Are there standards for certain tests and if so where?
Would it be a good idea to use these standards as a motivating tool even if they were not achievable?
Do you think it is a good idea not to show results to players if there fitness has dropped, even just by a small amount, as it could make the player think he was becoming unfit and get into his head come match day?Will Heffernan wrote: »
Like I said...a vertical jump and a max effort 3km would be a great training stimulus pretty much any time during the year.
is there a danger though that with little testing procedures players will feel that they are being short changed and lose faith in the both you and the management structure as a whole. For example the previous coach could have have done a whole battery of fitness tests and regardless of the fact they might not have been appropriate they did look impressive to the players who wouldn't know the difference. Now your coming in with two tests and to their minds its like something they were asked to do 20 years ago, so after the first defeat of the year the conversation will likely go. "sure we're not fit enough" " that lad hasn't a clue, he only does two fitness tests, while the lad last year had his running due timing gates, on jump mats, etc"Will Heffernan wrote: »That as I said comes down to coaching. I always group players based on ability so what you are suggesting above isn't too far off the mark.
I'd imagine this would be hard to manage: Your on your own with 25-30 lads all of different abilities, from your County stars to your Junior B's. Separating them might be easy but how do you go about training them separately on your own within the same 90 minutes.
How long do you recommend for a training session everything included, warm up, Fitness, skills, warm down, maybe the manager talking, maybe tactics. There is an optimal time in your opinion or do you let it just vary depending on how things are going.0 -
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That sounds pretty reasonable...if you look to other sports...you won't be seeing anyone playing prop being transformed into a winger and vice versa. You are what you are...so you might as well maximise your strengths and try to just ensure your 'weaknesses' don't hinder you too much.KeithReilly wrote: »So can I take it that you would try to ensure that a player maintained if not improved whatever his strengths were and increases on his weaknesses or hit some sort of standards on his weaknesses which allowed these weaknesses not be such an issue that he could use his strengths as an advantage. ( this feels like a cumbersome explanation) I'll use an example instead:
Precisely...keep the fitness and endurance and try to improve his strength and power on ball.Little Johnny is super fit and covers loads of ground but he is also quite weak and gets pushed off the ball. We need Little Johnny to become stronger and possibly bigger but not lose his aerobic fitness. So we need him still to hit the 3km times he's being hitting but we need him stronger.
What tests do you want to know? I can give you standards for AFL. They really don't mean much. You want to develop your own standards within your team. I've sat down with groups that I've been training here recently and negotiated our own standards. Standards that as a group we will hold ourselves to. There's no reason you can't do that.How do we set standards for these tests so that we know where the team stands outside of the goldfish bowl, we might have players that have gotten fitter compared to what they were or have got everyone to a standard above what we considered good but how to we compare outside of our own pool of players. Are there standards for certain tests and if so where?
There's no reason not to have aspirational standards.Would it be a good idea to use these standards as a motivating tool even if they were not achievable?
Absolutely show them. See the thing is that what usually happens in Ireland is that the squads are small enough that lads know they are going to get their game no matter what happens. I just don't think expecting more of players is a bad thing even if you are going to be repeatedly disappointed.Do you think it is a good idea not to show results to players if there fitness has dropped, even just by a small amount, as it could make the player think he was becoming unfit and get into his head come match day?
Absolutely. That's because for the best part they don't really understand the process. That doesn't mean that it's wrong though. It also doesn't stop you from educating the players about what you are testing and why you are testing it.is there a danger though that with little testing procedures players will feel that they are being short changed and lose faith in the both you and the management structure as a whole.
If you have access to the equipment. If you have the time to do it. By all means go hog wild. I love testing and I've access now to some amazing equipment and I spend hours and hours studying it. All I am saying is that you can start of with some fairly basic and reliable testing that is going to give you some great data....anything after the most basic is a bonus.For example the previous coach could have have done a whole battery of fitness tests and regardless of the fact they might not have been appropriate they did look impressive to the players who wouldn't know the difference. Now your coming in with two tests and to their minds its like something they were asked to do 20 years ago, so after the first defeat of the year the conversation will likely go. "sure we're not fit enough" " that lad hasn't a clue, he only does two fitness tests, while the lad last year had his running due timing gates, on jump mats, etc"
It really isn't that hard...it just takes experience.I'd imagine this would be hard to manage: Your on your own with 25-30 lads all of different abilities, from your County stars to your Junior B's. Separating them might be easy but how do you go about training them separately on your own within the same 90 minutes.
Depends on what you are looking to get out of the session. What type of session it is and what time of year it is and what the teams priorities are.How long do you recommend for a training session everything included, warm up, Fitness, skills, warm down, maybe the manager talking, maybe tactics. There is an optimal time in your opinion or do you let it just vary depending on how things are going.0 -
Cliff notes so far (open to correction or clarification )
1. Size is not a factor in how quick people of comparable fitness will get fit(ter).
2. The cardiovascular fitness of gaelic footballers can get be measured using various components such as:
Power - vertical jump or standing long jump
Acceleration - 10m run - speed gates needed?
Agility - something like spider test
Speed - 50m run - again speed gates needed?
Speed Endurance/Repeatability - 150's
Endurance - 3km run.
3. The power and acceleration tests are likely to have a high degree of correlation...so pick one.
4. At club level,beep tests/spider tests are unreliable because of the numbers you are trying to test and because players cheat. A 3km is easily to conduct and reliable.
5. A vertical jump test and a 3km run is a very effective form of fitness testing for gaelic football with limited equipment.
6. Fitness testing in Gaelic games is irregular and inconsistent. The results are not acted among and therefore while you may have a measure of a type fitness if you do not follow up on the testing up targeting areas where improvements have been gained then you have not made proper use of the information you have gained.
7. Players of lower fitness level will need to train more often in order to gain the same high levels as others.
8. Not everyone reacts to training at the same rate.
9. Specific areas of fitness get be targeted by balancing training stimulus to allow for specification for individual athletes within a team environment.
10. Although you have a team it is comprised of individuals and a one size fits all program will never be the 'best' way to train a team. You need a plan that allows for some individualisation.
11. Coaching is a cross between science and art...you need to have the scientific understanding of the principles and the artistic flair to implement them. You can have all the science in the world, but if you don't have the people skills and the flair to apply it then you are going no where.
12. Getting the correct balance training with and without the ball is key to gaining specific fitness to the sport.
13. Testing should be done at the start of the season and then at regular intervals, test results can be followed up in order to see who needs extra training or is falling down in a specific area of fitness and who could possibly be overtrained.
14. Consistent testing done from year to year creates valuable data which can be used to monitor the progress and decline of players.
15. You should try to ensure that a player maintains if not improves whatever his strengths are and increases on his weaknesses or hits some sort of standards on his weaknesses which allowed these weaknesses not be such an issue that he could use his strengths as an advantage.
16. Setting aspirational targets or standards can be a good idea to keep players motivated.
17. Players should be made aware of their fitness test results.
18. Training session length depends on what you are looking to get out of the session. What type of session it is and what time of year it is and what the teams priorities are.0 -
Will Heffernan wrote: »
What tests do you want to know? I can give you standards for AFL. They really don't mean much. You want to develop your own standards within your team. I've sat down with groups that I've been training here recently and negotiated our own standards. Standards that as a group we will hold ourselves to. There's no reason you can't do that.
Well how about standards in AFL if they exist for some of the tests named -Power - vertical jump or standing long jump
Acceleration - 10m run - speed gates needed?
Agility - something like spider test
Speed - 50m run - again speed gates needed?
Speed Endurance/Repeatability - 150's
Endurance - 3km run.
Possibly getting away from the subject now but seeing as we have tested the team and have them training for fitness using the ball as much as possible, how are we going to warm them up and cool them down
Lets take it that a training session starting at the start of the season is going to total 75 minutes. How much of this in your opinion should be given to the warm- up and cool down. The cool down in particular is something that is almost an after thought. I think most warm ups done by teams are fairly good at all levels, with dynamic stretching, mobilty work, static stretching and game specific warm up drills all incorporated. Is there anything that you feel gaelic football teams could incorporate in their warm ups that their not, is the warm up possibly an opportunity to introduce corrective exercises?
How about the warm down, in most cases from what I can see its usually just a jog across the pitch and a short static stretch, total time spent being maybe 5 minutes is this adequate. Is their something that is crucial in a warm down that must be done?
Do you believe in periodisation for gaelic games, alot of teams start with endurance, move on to speed and possibly finish with reaction closer to championship. Do you think this is a good idea or should the different components be trained throughout the season?
And here is a bonus question for you Are the effects of drink on performance over rated, nearly every inter county and club team don't drink during the championship and some players don't drink from February to October because of the harmful effects of drink on performance. yet at the last rugby world cup the All blacks and England both drank during the competition and I'm sure they were not the only teams. Surely if drink was that harmful than the sports scientists or whatever guys these teams have in the back ground would have a full ban on drinking coming up to and during the rugby world cup? 0 -
Just for the sake of speed I will just * my correction/clarifications within your post.KeithReilly wrote: »Cliff notes so far (open to correction or clarification )
1. Size is not a factor in how quick people of comparable fitness will get fit(ter).
*True...body composition is a much more relevant factor.
2. The cardiovascular fitness of gaelic footballers can get be measured using various components such as:
Power - vertical jump or standing long jump
Acceleration - 10m run - speed gates needed?
Agility - something like spider test
Speed - 50m run - again speed gates needed?
Speed Endurance/Repeatability - 150's
Endurance - 3km run.
*That all sounds reasonable...the speed test is a little long and so is the speed endurance/repeatability test.
3. The power and acceleration tests are likely to have a high degree of correlation...so pick one.
*Yes.
4. At club level,beep tests/spider tests are unreliable because of the numbers you are trying to test and because players cheat. A 3km is easily to conduct and reliable.
*Agreed.
5. A vertical jump test and a 3km run is a very effective form of fitness testing for gaelic football with limited equipment.
*Agreed...quick, easy, reliable and most important repeatable.
6. Fitness testing in Gaelic games is irregular and inconsistent. The results are not acted among and therefore while you may have a measure of a type fitness if you do not follow up on the testing up targeting areas where improvements have been gained then you have not made proper use of the information you have gained.
*Couldn't have said it better myself.
7. Players of lower fitness level will need to train more often in order to gain the same high levels as others.
*They need to train smarter and consistently.
8. Not everyone reacts to training at the same rate.
*This should be bolded.
9. Specific areas of fitness get be targeted by balancing training stimulus to allow for specification for individual athletes within a team environment.
*Have no idea what you mean here...and I read it over and over again
10. Although you have a team it is comprised of individuals and a one size fits all program will never be the 'best' way to train a team. You need a plan that allows for some individualisation.
*Ideally yes, that is what works best.
11. Coaching is a cross between science and art...you need to have the scientific understanding of the principles and the artistic flair to implement them. You can have all the science in the world, but if you don't have the people skills and the flair to apply it then you are going no where.
*Yep
12. Getting the correct balance training with and without the ball is key to gaining specific fitness to the sport.
*Yep.
13. Testing should be done at the start of the season and then at regular intervals, test results can be followed up in order to see who needs extra training or is falling down in a specific area of fitness and who could possibly be overtrained.
*Yep.
14. Consistent testing done from year to year creates valuable data which can be used to monitor the progress and decline of players.
*Yep.
15. You should try to ensure that a player maintains if not improves whatever his strengths are and increases on his weaknesses or hits some sort of standards on his weaknesses which allowed these weaknesses not be such an issue that he could use his strengths as an advantage.
*Yep
16. Setting aspirational targets or standards can be a good idea to keep players motivated.
*Absolutely. I think individual and group accountability is key in team sports. If you are just playing for fun...grand...forget about all the testing. If however you have an intention of actually winning and being committed to that then hold yourself and your team mates to account and get after it.
17. Players should be made aware of their fitness test results.
*Absolutely...I'd post them in the dressing room.
18. Training session length depends on what you are looking to get out of the session. What type of session it is and what time of year it is and what the teams priorities are.
*Sounds good to me.0 -
That's easy....the AFL publish all the results of testing from the AFL draft camp on their website...or at least they used to.KeithReilly wrote: »Well how about standards in AFL if they exist for some of the tests named -Power - vertical jump or standing long jump
Acceleration - 10m run - speed gates needed?
Agility - something like spider test
Speed - 50m run - again speed gates needed?
Speed Endurance/Repeatability - 150's
Endurance - 3km run.
That's a long long story and my warm ups are very much dependent on the session to be done. Whether it's a technical session, speed or endurance session or a match etc etc.Possibly getting away from the subject now but seeing as we have tested the team and have them training for fitness using the ball as much as possible, how are we going to warm them up and cool them down
Warm ups I think that once they incorporate all those factors you've mentioned comes down to personal/group preference.Lets take it that a training session starting at the start of the season is going to total 75 minutes. How much of this in your opinion should be given to the warm- up and cool down. The cool down in particular is something that is almost an after thought. I think most warm ups done by teams are fairly good at all levels, with dynamic stretching, mobilty work, static stretching and game specific warm up drills all incorporated. Is there anything that you feel gaelic football teams could incorporate in their warm ups that their not, is the warm up possibly an opportunity to introduce corrective exercises?
That sounds spot on the me.How about the warm down, in most cases from what I can see its usually just a jog across the pitch and a short static stretch, total time spent being maybe 5 minutes is this adequate. Is their something that is crucial in a warm down that must be done?
This is a hard one to do justice to quickly but I will give it a crack.Do you believe in periodisation for gaelic games, alot of teams start with endurance, move on to speed and possibly finish with reaction closer to championship. Do you think this is a good idea or should the different components be trained throughout the season?
I think it is important to train all capacities at all times but it is important to put the emphasis on different capacities at different times.
I actually do the opposite of most coaches. Once players have a base of fitness...that is enough fitness to actually get through training...I put the emphasis on acceleration, speed and power development firstly and then over time try to build up work capacity.
To me there is no point doing the speed endurance work that a lot of teams do coming into championship if the speed you are enduring is slow
Acceleration > Speed > Speed Endurance > Endurance as far as I am concerned and will be happy to argue the point with anyone.
Yes, I think drink bans are dumb because what tends to happen is that when and if someone goes off the rails....they REALLY go off the rails.And here is a bonus question for you Are the effects of drink on performance over rated, nearly every inter county and club team don't drink during the championship and some players don't drink from February to October because of the harmful effects of drink on performance. yet at the last rugby world cup the All blacks and England both drank during the competition and I'm sure they were not the only teams. Surely if drink was that harmful than the sports scientists or whatever guys these teams have in the back ground would have a full ban on drinking coming up to and during the rugby world cup?
I'd had no exposure to drink bans in professional sport before I came to Ireland and I don't have any recollection of it ever being an issue. I had plenty of experience with a variety of teams in a variety of sports where excessive alcohol consumption was an issue. I suppose it is just a cultural thing and a matter of deciding what works for you and the team.
The is no research I've seen that would indicate to me that having a couple of beers with dinner or at a BBQ on the weekend or after a match would be detrimental to performance.
I was involved in several major alcohol studies at the AIS in the 90's and I know that there was never any significant impact from 'normal/moderate' consumption.
Having 12 or 15 beers...that's a whole other matter.0 -
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Can I just say one thing...(well you can't really stop me so I am going to say it whether you say no or not)...1. I love GAA...I love it so much that I've paid to have Setanta as a part of my TV package in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane...the three cities in which I spend most of my time...I record matches on my set top box so I don't miss anything. How many GAA 'fans' do that in Ireland. I am not 'critical' because I hate it, or that I don't like it, or because I think the people involved are crap...I comment on it because I love the game and I really enjoyed all the different levels of involvement I had in it. 2. People get upset or annoyed with me here when I am 'critical' of them. If I didn't care it would be far easier to read posts and just laugh and move on. I make an effort to help people because I like helping them so I wish people wouldn't take it so personally when I call them a retard or idiot...or when I say that they are doing something stupid
Seriously though...I am trying to be a bit more gentle with people but if I am commenting it's because I want to help you.
This happens in most sports...basketball, hockey, rugby, football as well as it is in GAA...it just is what it is...I am just trying to point out that doing it 'better' isn't that much harder.fighterman wrote: »I couldn't agree more with this. So many times over the years I have done bleep tests and other various flexibility tests in February or March at the beginning of a season. The scores would have been recorded but that was it. There was never subsequent testing done at, say, 3 month intervals for the rest of the year.
None at all.So what were the point of them at all?
You should feel free to point out when you think I am wrong....as I've said before I think this forum would be far more valuable a resource if people spoke up. Believe me...in real life no one gives a crap whether I or anyone else says you are wrong.Will Heffernan has been very critical of GAA training at times but as a GAA player I would agree with him on most of his critiques.
I hope so.Things improving but still a bit to go.
It is really dependent on the individuals involved. The professional sporting codes in Aus are pretty switched on. I have learned a tonne since I've been back...my philosophy has changed but the things I do now are far more refined.Will, which sport or organisation would you regard as most advanced in terms of sports science ? AFL ? How would professional soccer stack up?0 -
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I think the biggest difference between here and home is the general level of knowledge and understanding of the principles of sports science amongst athletes at all levels...in Ireland you still have athletes talking about getting on the protein while I've had conversations with club level players here about what specific mixes of amino acids they are taking and when and how those combinations and quantities are altered depending on the type of session.fighterman wrote: »Are there many current staples of preparation of teams in Ireland or Europe that have been abandoned in Aus?
My training philosophy hasn't changed...I have learnt a lot more about recovery modalities and athlete management and been exposed to a sh*t tonne of new sports technology products and there application with regard to fine tuning performance.In what way, broadly, has your philosophy changed?
I've barely been on the web with regard to sports science. Luckily for me a lot of the individuals with whom I used to work have kicked on in their careers and I've just been sponging off them.What Australian websites do you glean your info from ?
Aren't we allI am eager to learn! 0 -
I think that says a lot about Irish culture. That is not being judgemental...I just think 'drinking' is more pervasive in Ireland. Drinking is a massive cultural issue in Australia as well BUT from my experience it's not as big an issue in sport. There are exceptions for sure but it just does't seem the same here.KeithReilly wrote: »The drinking culture is probably the biggest issue and its probably easier to implement a drink ban outright rather than let players be responsible and drink moderately.
As someone who now has a professional interest in law enforcement my own view is that the allowable limit with regard to getting behind the wheel should be a BAC of 0.010%...that is that you can't of had a single drink.Setting a limit of drinks per player is probably like setting a limit for drink driving, some people can drive after ten pints, some can't drive after a glass! For the same reason I presume moderate drinking is specific to the player in question?
With regard your point though. Having a couple of pints (of beer not vodka) at dinner would have absolutely no detrimental effects whatsoever.
Personally...I've had a couple of drinks with dinner the night before major competitions/fights and I am positive it had no negative impact. If anything I felt relaxed and probably slept better. That's me personally though. I've also had sex within an hour of fighting as well and won....so I am all about breaking taboosI presume even though you say one or two drinks at a barbecue you would mean within a certain amount of time before a big competition/match?
Nope.Do you believe its a case that moderate drinking has an effect inside a number of days? Say within 3 days?
Depends on the protocol.What is the proper intervals for fitness testing? is every 3 months adequate, I would have thought more regulary, like 4-6 weeks.
It isn't necessary to have a testing day. You could do some sprint testing as a part of a session one day. Then say vertical jump testing some other day that you were going to do some drills working on getting up to the high ball for instance. A 3km time trial done after a warm up on another day before having a breather and then doing some 5 a side mini matches on another day with a view to working on ball movement when fatigued for example.
You could break the testing up. Do some tests and do them 12 weeks later...and then 6 weeks after doing the first series of test do others and repeat those in 6 weeks.
It really depends on the team, the management and what your goals and aspirations are.0 -
Will Heffernan wrote: »Firstly, great questions and well worth discussing.
Lets be specific about what you mean as fitness? Again I am going to assume you are talking about cardiovascular fitness but I don't want to go off on a ramble and for you to say...'Ahhhh...no, that's not what I meant.'.
You tell me what you want to measure and I will tell you what I think is the best way to measure it.
It depends what you want to measure and what sport you are measuring it in. If you get specific with your questions I will be happy to be super specific with my answers.
As I've been saying....be specific. As an aside...one of the issues in GAA in Ireland in short is the inconsistency of testing....let me tell you what happens from the highest level all the way down (from what I've seen and know...in the knowledge that I've not seen and don't know everything but have seen a good bit in the past from county level down to the top club level teams.)
The testing is inconsistent...in that different trainers/managers use different tests....that these tests are done inconstantly and irregularly and that the testing isn't acted upon....so essentially most of the testing that is done in Ireland is worthless and the only positive effect it has is that the players expect to be tested and that this expectation is met.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Athletes respond differently to different training stimulus but that this variation isn't size dependent.
I could write a book on that.
It is about balancing training stimulus to allow for specification for individual athletes within a team environment.
I always try to make all my fitness work sport specific. I've some stuff on training for GAA I'll have a look for it later PM you some links and you can take a look and ask some more questions
could you pm me those links too if it not huge hassle?
that inconsistency of testing WRECKS my head. test in january and then the following january for years on end. or worse again...test things like flexibility and vertical jump...run the crap out of team for six weeks and then test those things again......cos three mile runs can improve jumping.0 -
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Done.fighterman wrote: »Could I jump aboard and have that PM'ed also?
I did a quite comprehensive post regarding dietary requirements for sport that's in the stickies.What's your view on dietary requirements of a Gaelic Football/AFL player? (AFL is obviously a longer game but the type of running done is broadly similar)
Within the basic framework I am not a real stickler for this or that and quite frankly I think a lot of the paleo diet this and hunter gather that or vegan or vegetarian this or that is a pile of crap.Hunter-gatherer type diet? ( Lean meat, fish, eggs, nuts, loads of water, low enough in carbs)
There are certain macro and micro nutrient requirements you need to optimise performance...after that you need calories to sustain performance and or recovery etc etc...how you get those calories is up to you. I don't eat much in the way of wheat and I don't have much in the way of processed foods. I have elite athletes that pretty much eat Mc Donald's, Burger King and KFC as their 3 main meals of the day and don't give a crap about their diet and they get by just fine. I've also trained vegans and vegetarians who seem idiots eating 'paleo' (anytime anyone says that I know they are 'damaged' because it just stinks to high heavens of obnoxious self indulgence...but that's a whole other conversation) and they seem to have to spend soooooo much time and have to dedicate so much brain power to what and how they eat I actually feel sorry for them. Also...if I had $1 for every vegetarian female athlete I've had that battled constant exhaustion and injury only to finally give in to me trying to make them eat a steak and to do so and see all there problems disappear with every piece of steaky goodness they consume.
So in short...make sure you meet all your needs (outlined in that stickied post) in whatever suits you and makes you feel the best.
I don't read anybody online really but that's only because I am a self opinionated arrogant a-hole....many people seem to agree with me on that hereI read a lot of this guy www.drbriffa.com . His blogs are very interesting, even if they are aimed at the average joe rather than sportspeople. 0 -
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I agree...I think it pretty pathetic actually...drink bans that is...but each to their own. Having a few drinks here and there doesn't seem to make any difference at all.BlueIsland wrote: »I know from a personal perspective I operate far better on the field if I have a few drinks after matches. So lets says during a league run (march, april etc) train hard tuesday, thursday with team, gym work monday/ wednesday, kicking on a friday, match saturday (5 or 6 pints after it), off sunday and back into it again. wouldnt drink 2 weeks before a championship match. now some guys play better going off it altogether as they think thats the sacrafice they make. fair play to them. Im just so uncomfortable with managers at club level thinking a drinking ban is the solution when its actually just sidetracking his own failure in poor training methods. I know of one county team who actually check cctv coverage in pubs/ clubs to see if players out. sickening.
sorry if this is going off topic.
As for being off topic....what was the topic again? 0 -
Will Heffernan wrote: »I agree...I think it pretty pathetic actually...drink bans that is...but each to their own. Having a few drinks here and there doesn't seem to make any difference at all.
As for being off topic....what was the topic again? Id "weigh" in on other topic or try to. Think the question is..is a guy who constantly fights his weight easier to get fit than a guy who doesnt naturally fight his weight. When they stop then does the chubby guy get unfit quick in comparison to the non chubby guy.
Right I am that chubby guy and I think the answer is yes to the above.
I get up to the smaller guys level but fall down well beyond him in off season or if I get injured. But Im under no illusions... this is I believe a food issue rather than a training issue. i eat and drink too much when Im sedentary. The smaller guy probably wont eat or drink as much.
Get chubby guy to eat right on and off season and you can train both the exact same.0 -
What you are describing are the body composition issues that muddy the waters in this discussion...you are one of the 'bigger' people who is just carrying extra fat. It isn't your size that's issue...it's the excess body fat that causes your issues with regard to the speed at which you get fit and or lose your fitness.BlueIsland wrote: » Id "weigh" in on other topic or try to. Think the question is..is a guy who constantly fights his weight easier to get fit than a guy who doesnt naturally fight his weight. When they stop then does the chubby guy get unfit quick in comparison to the non chubby guy.
Right I am that chubby guy and I think the answer is yes to the above.
I get up to the smaller guys level but fall down well beyond him in off season or if I get injured. But Im under no illusions... this is I believe a food issue rather than a training issue. i eat and drink too much when Im sedentary. The smaller guy probably wont eat or drink as much.
Get chubby guy to eat right on and off season and you can train both the exact same.0 -
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This is a massive topic...I could talk about it for ages. I will PM you a post on it.KeithReilly wrote: »1. what particular exercises do you test?
I've written about this as well...I'll send you a PM.2. How do you know how much strength is enough?
...and yet another PM3. How do you know how much exposure an individual needs, is it just a matter of trail and error to see at what point strength starts to drop.
Agreed.4. The answer to appropriate amount of strength is probably contained in answer 2 and the amount of training needed in answer 3?0 -
Will, i would be forever grateful if you could PM me your GAA info on training and testing!
In the midst of preseason weight training and would be eager to know how much strength you reckon is required for a GAA player also 0 -
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I am not hiding anything.Antisocialiser wrote: »Will, i would be forever grateful if you could PM me your GAA info on training and testing!
In the midst of preseason weight training and would be eager to know how much strength you reckon is required for a GAA player also
I've blogged about GAA and testing a lot in the past it is just that my blog is crap in that it has no search function...which I will eventually fix.
Start here.
http://informedperformance.wordpress.com/category/fitness-testing/
and here.
http://informedperformance.wordpress.com/category/sport/gaa/
I will have a look through my old posts today and make sure they are 'indexed' properly (which they aren't) and will PM you a better list of posts to look at.
If you have any questions at all feel free to fire away and I'll help if I can.
Good luck with your preparation and the season to come.0
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