Best Hurling team of last 20 years.... With one small catch

jaykay74

Deskjockey wrote: »

Nice to see a Laois player in there but ah here, no Shefflin ....?

I'm also sensing you're from South Kilkenny with no Waterford players - Did they tease you something wicked in the De La Salle or wha :-)

Paul Flynn is in there, no ?

Deskjockey

jordainius wrote: »

Of course you can; 5 out of the 10 teams posted have Ken McGrath, 5 don't. That's about right. At the positions; 8, 9, 7, 11 and 6. It has yet to happen that two posters pick him in the same position; with the exception of midfield; but he barely ever played there.

His versatility counts against him when it comes to picking an XV like this; he's not known as a specialist of a particular position.

You're right on his versatility counting against him but the thing to do is just put him in somewhere anyway as for me he truly was one of the greats. I remember feeling just so sad the day that he retired as he had had a part in so many brilliant days out and provided so many wonderful memories over the years

Man love. It's ok :-)

Deskjockey

jaykay74 wrote: »

Paul Flynn is in there, no ?

Sorry I'll get my coat

Arctic89

1.D Fitzhenry (Wexford)
2.B Lohan (Clare)
3.D O Sullivan (Cork)
4.O Canning (Galway)
5.T Browne (Waterford)
6.S Mc Mahon (Clare)
7.B Whelehan (Offaly)
8.J Pilkington (Offaly)
9.K Mc Grath (Waterford)
10.M Storey (Wexford)
11. H Shefflin (Kilkenny)
12.DJ Carey (Kilkenny)
13.J Deane (Cork)
14.J Canning (Galway)
15.E Kelly (Tipperary)

Had to play Brian Lohan out of position, couldnt justify leaving him out and having Frank in in his place. Surprised when I looked that I only had one Tipp player, Eamonn Corcoran was unlucky to miss out but I think its fair putting Whelehan and Browne ahead of him.

blue note

cat in the sack wrote: »

here we go so

Damien Fitzhenery wexford
Brian Corcoran cork
Brian Lohan clare
John Taylor laois
Brian Whelehan offaly
Sean McMahon clare
JJ Delaney kilkenny
Johnny Pilkington offaly
Ciran Carey limerick
DJ Carey kilkenny
Martin Storey wexford
Paul Flynn waterford
Ben o'connor cork
Gary Kirby limerick
Eoin Kelly tipp

Delighted to see Paul Flynn included in a team. For me, I think Ken is easily the best we've had. He wouldn't have had the skill of Flynn, but he wasn't short on it either and was a colossus in so many other ways.

Also, I had Mullane in ahead of him. I actually think Mullane is a limited hurler in some ways (quite poor under the high ball and perhaps takes the points too readily when there's a better option) - but what he does well he does like no other. Mullane couldn't do half the things Flynn could, but he'd get you 4 points a game anyway. Just to note, I'm calling Mullane limited in some ways when comparing him to the best of the last 20 years. I'm not saying he's like a junior hurler or anything!

Finally, I was also delighted to see Henry Shefflin left out. Shefflin is a legend of the game, and I had him in my team, but Kilkenny were blessed with several incredible players in the last 20 years who deserve to be considered on the same level as Shefflin. Tommy, JJ and possibly my favourite player of the last 20 years, DJ. As brilliant as Shefflin is, DJ would shade it for me if I had to pick one. Of course Cody didn't have to, he got to play both of them. As well as JJ, Tommy and a few others. Come to think of it, has he underachieved? They were mad to reappoint him!

cat in the sack

if Carey stood over the pen in the all ireland final Galway would have seen no replay, he would have took the roof out of the net with it.

Deskjockey

cat in the sack wrote: »

if Carey stood over the pen in the all ireland final Galway would have seen no replay, he would have took the roof out of the net with it.

This is a fact. Was a very strange decision from Shefflin I thought at the time.

MfMan

cat in the sack wrote: »

if Carey stood over the pen in the all ireland final Galway would have seen no replay, he would have took the roof out of the net with it.

Yes, but DJ couldn't have inspired (or led) the the KK team to come back in the same way Shefflin did; different types of players.

cat in the sack

MfMan wrote: »

Yes, but DJ couldn't have inspired (or led) the the KK team to come back in the same way Shefflin did; different types of players.

begod theres many a game DJ Carey led the kilkenny team to win in fact
again Galway in 1997 when kilkenny were 7 or 8 points down DJ scored something like 2-7 for a great come back win.

the 1992 final again Cork his pen turn the game, he got goals and points again offaly and wexford in tight games down the years to pull kilkenny
through.

have to say Carey was up again better hurlers than are out today and there was more teams that could win the all ireland unlike today

Mountainlad

1. Brendan Cummins (Tipperary)
2. Darragh Ryan (Wexford)
3. Brian Lohan (Clare)
4. Ollie Canning (Galway)
5. Tommy Walsh (Kilkenny)
6. Ken McGrath (Waterford)
7. Brian Whealahan (Offaly)
8. Ciaran Carey (Limerick)
9. Sean Og O Hailpin (Cork)
10. Jamesie O Connor (Clare)
11. Henry Shefflin (Kilkenny)
12. Ollie Moran (Limerick)
13. John Mullane (Waterford)
14. Eoin Kelly (Tipperary)
15. Joe Deane (Cork)

Tipp 2
Clare 2
Kilkenny 2
Waterford 2
Limerick 2
Cork 2
Wexford 1
Galway 1
Offaly 1

Had trouble with midfield, that's why I put Sean Og in there even though he didn't really play there. Left out McMahon because I think Ken was a better player, and also because full back is a hard position to pick and Lohan was brilliant and Jamesie O Connor was possibly the most naturally talented player of the 90s, next to Brian Whelahan (some might argue John Troy too).

Couldn't leave out Deano either, I 've seen him a lot and he always seemed to produce. Ollie Moran was a top player too, and I couldn't pick Ben O'Connor because I had two Cork already.


That was hard.

Utopia Parkway

Mountainlad wrote: »

1. Brendan Cummins (Tipperary)
2. Darragh Ryan (Wexford)
3. Brian Lohan (Clare)
4. Ollie Canning (Galway)
5. Tommy Walsh (Kilkenny)
6. Ken McGrath (Waterford)
7. Brian Whealahan (Offaly)
8. Ciaran Carey (Limerick)
9. Sean Og O Hailpin (Cork)
10. Jamesie O Connor (Clare)
11. Henry Shefflin (Kilkenny)
12. Ollie Moran (Limerick)
13. John Mullane (Waterford)
14. Eoin Kelly (Tipperary)
15. Joe Deane (Cork)

Tipp 2
Clare 2
Kilkenny 2
Waterford 2
Limerick 2
Cork 2
Wexford 1
Galway 1
Offaly 1

Had trouble with midfield, that's why I put Sean Og in there even though he didn't really play there. Left out McMahon because I think Ken was a better player, and also because full back is a hard position to pick and Lohan was brilliant and Jamesie O Connor was possibly the most naturally talented player of the 90s, next to Brian Whelahan (some might argue John Troy too).

Couldn't leave out Deano either, I 've seen him a lot and he always seemed to produce. Ollie Moran was a top player too, and I couldn't pick Ben O'Connor because I had two Cork already.


That was hard.

Realistically would anyone really have Ollie Moran ahead of say Joe Canning in a team like this? Ollie was a fine player but not in Canning's class.

Mountainlad

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

Realistically would anyone really have Ollie Moran ahead of say Joe Canning in a team like this? Ollie was a fine player but not in Canning's class.

I know who the better wing forward is/was. Don't think Canning has done enough to merit inclusion in a team like this, that's just my personal opinion. I'd have everyone in the full forward line in there ahead of him without hesitation and I wasn't going shifting one of them out to the half forward line. Ollie Moran was a very good hurler, though I'd have picked Ben O'Connor or DJ if I could have.

therunaround

Brendan cummins. Tipp

Frank lohan. Clare
Brian lohan. Clare
Ollie canning. Gal

Tommy Walsh. Kk
Brick Walsh. Wat
Brian whelehan. Off

Ciaran Carey. Lk
Ken McGrath. Wat

Johnny Dooley. Off
Martin storey. Wex
Ben o Connor. Cork

Eoin Kelly. tipp
Joe canning. Gal
Henry shefflin. Kk

Clareman

Wow, that was difficult

Damien Fitzhenry (WX)

Ollie Canning (GY)
Donal O'Sullivan (CK)
Stephen McDonagh (LK)

Tommy Walsh (KK)
Sean McMahon (CE)
Brian Whelehan (Off)

Tommy Dunne (TP)
Colin Lynch (CE)

Jimmy Dooley (Off)
Henry Shefflin (KK)
Martin Storey (WX)

Joe Dean (CK)
Joe Canning (GY)
Gary Kirby (LK)

Manzoor14

Phew, I spent way too long thinking about this! Really tough one but:

D Fitzhenry WX

O Canning GY
B Lohan CE
T Walsh KK

B Whelahan OY
S McMahon CE
K McGrath WD

J Dooley OY
C Carey LM

J Mullane WD
M Storey WX
H Shefflin KK

E Kelly TP
J Canning GW
J Deane CK

Big losers: Jamsie O'Connor, DJ Carey, JJ Delaney, Paul Flynn.

premierstone

Clareman wrote: »

Wow, that was difficult

Damien Fitzhenry (WX)

Ollie Canning (GY)
Donal O'Sullivan (CK)
Stephen McDonagh (LK)

Tommy Walsh (KK)
Sean McMahon (CE)
Brian Whelehan (Off)

Tommy Dunne (TP)
Colin Lynch (CE)

Jimmy Dooley (Off)
Henry Shefflin (KK)
Martin Storey (WX)

Joe Dean (CK)
Joe Canning (GY)
Gary Kirby (LK)

You really wouldn't have Eoin Kelly ahead of 5 of those forwards, or John Mullane for that matter??

blue note

Clareman wrote: »

Wow, that was difficult

Damien Fitzhenry (WX)

Ollie Canning (GY)
Donal O'Sullivan (CK)
Stephen McDonagh (LK)

Tommy Walsh (KK)
Sean McMahon (CE)
Brian Whelehan (Off)

Tommy Dunne (TP)
Colin Lynch (CE)

Jimmy Dooley (Off)
Henry Shefflin (KK)
Martin Storey (WX)

Joe Dean (CK)
Joe Canning (GY)
Gary Kirby (LK)

Not a single Waterford player good enough to make the team? We were constantly being criticised for being a team of individuals, surely one of them over the years could get it?

Clareman

Didn't realise that, I got my team by starting in the 90s, taking some of the best players from then and adding to it, I guess Martin Storey or Gary Kirby could be swapped out, but Storey was immense in 96 and I honestly think that Kirby was the best player never to win an All Ireland, his frees alone would keep his team in it.

I just realised I've an awful lot of free takers on that team.

Juniorhurler

blue note wrote: »

Not a single Waterford player good enough to make the team? We were constantly being criticised for being a team of individuals, surely one of them over the years could get it?

you get fair excited by people not picking Waterford men. Its other peoples opinions,and as the saying goes, opinions are like arseholes everybody has one.

Clareman

Juniorhurler wrote: »

you get fair excited by people not picking Waterford men. Its other peoples opinions,and as the saying goes, opinions are like arseholes everybody has one.

In fairness Waterford have been 1 of the most high profile teams in the past 20 years and have had some great players, it's a bit telling that they are over-looked by some people (myself included) for a team of the past 2 decades whereas other teams (Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Offaly) have all people included by most posters.

Juniorhurler

<p>

Clareman wrote: »

In fairness Waterford have been 1 of the most high profile teams in the past 20 years and have had some great players, it's a bit telling that they are over-looked by some people (myself included) for a team of the past 2 decades whereas other teams (Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Offaly) have all people included by most posters.

</p>
<p> </p>
<p>TRUE. My point is that it is somebody elses opinion. Allow them to have it coz seeing different opinions is the fun of a thread like this.</p>

jordainius

Clareman wrote: »

In fairness Waterford have been 1 of the most high profile teams in the past 20 years and have had some great players, it's a bit telling that they are over-looked by some people (myself included) for a team of the past 2 decades whereas other teams (Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Offaly) have all people included by most posters.

Had they actually won an All-Ireland in that time they'd have two on most teams.

Also, it can't be said that a Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position for in the last 20 years, perhaps with the exception of John Mullane who has consistently played at a high standard at corner forward.

If there was no restriction on picking players per county, I for one probably wouldn't have a Waterford man on my XV and I doubt I would be alone in doing so.

Mountainlad

jordainius wrote: »

Had they actually won an All-Ireland in that time they'd have two on most teams.

Also, it can't be said that a Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position for in the last 20 years, perhaps with the exception of John Mullane who has consistently played at a high standard at corner forward.

If there was no restriction on picking players per county, I for one probably wouldn't have a Waterford man on my XV and I doubt I would be alone in doing so.

More than one Waterford player has been outstanding in a particular position. There. I said it. Wasn't very difficult to be honest.

In all seriousness, Mullane has made practically every team and rightly so, because I think the stats show that he is at the very least in the top 3 most proflific forwards from play, and I think I heard that he was the most somwhere.

Ken McGrath was outstanding in every position he played in bar full back. He gave 5 years nearly of incredible hurling at centre back, and I think given the format should (and is) included on nearly every team. Joe Canning has been hurling in the forwards (between the half forward line and full forward line for Galway) for 5 years now and hasn't shown anything like that consistency of excellent performances and yet he is included on practically every team. Flynn was a phenomenal talent too, and Tony Browne.

I don't know if you were making a general point about the all-irelands thing or whether you think it makes a player more entitled to be on this team, but it's worth bearing in mind that none of Kirby, McDonagh, Ciaran Carey or Foley have won all-irelands either. I for one don't think that all-irelands should come into the equation when you pick your best 15 of the last 20 years.

By the way, I'm not bemoaning any exclusions of Waterford players here. I agree that everybody has favourites and seen more of different players, and there for have different perspectives. I just don't agree with your last post.

jordainius

Mountainlad wrote: »

More than one Waterford player has been outstanding in a particular position. There. I said it. Wasn't very difficult to be honest.

In all seriousness, Mullane has made practically every team and rightly so, because I think the stats show that he is at the very least in the top 3 most proflific forwards from play, and I think I heard that he was the most somwhere.

Ken McGrath was outstanding in every position he played in bar full back. He gave 5 years nearly of incredible hurling at centre back, and I think given the format should (and is) included on nearly every team. Joe Canning has been hurling in the forwards (between the half forward line and full forward line for Galway) for 5 years now and hasn't shown anything like that consistency of excellent performances and yet he is included on practically every team. Flynn was a phenomenal talent too, and Tony Browne.

I don't know if you were making a general point about the all-irelands thing or whether you think it makes a player more entitled to be on this team, but it's worth bearing in mind that none of Kirby, McDonagh, Ciaran Carey or Foley have won all-irelands either. I for one don't think that all-irelands should come into the equation when you pick your best 15 of the last 20 years.

By the way, I'm not bemoaning any exclusions of Waterford players here. I agree that everybody has favourites and seen more of different players, and there for have different perspectives. I just don't agree with your last post.

More than one Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position in the last 20 years? Above all others?? Because that's what I'm saying is not the case in my last post and that's what you're disagreeing with...

Don't know why you're bringing Limerick players into it, unless you're getting personal for some strange reason??

Mountainlad

jordainius wrote: »

More than one Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position in the last 20 years? Above all others?? Because that's what I'm saying is not the case in my last post and that's what you're disagreeing with...

Don't know why you're bringing Limerick players into it, unless you're getting personal for some strange reason??

Yep. I believe Ken McGrath was the best centre back of the last 20 years. And I did see Seanie McMahon, not as much as others I'm sure. He was outstanding of course, but Ken McGrath is to me. Nicky English said he was the best player of the last 25 years in 2009. Of course, maybe he gave him credit for his versatility but I certainly don;t see why that should stand against him. And I also believe that Mullane is one of the two best corner forwards of the last 20 years, even without the two players per County restriction.

Because of what you said about the all-irelands, they're the only other players there (aside from the Cannings) pretty much that haven't won all-irelands. I have nothing against Limerick, and I'm sure you've nothing against Waterford. I was just using them as an examples of how some of the best individual players never win all-irelands and that has to be taken into account when devising your teams.

jordainius

Mountainlad wrote: »

Yep. I believe Ken McGrath was the best centre back of the last 20 years. And I did see Seanie McMahon, not as much as others I'm sure. He was outstanding of course, but Ken McGrath is to me. Nicky English said he was the best player of the last 25 years in 2009. Of course, maybe he gave him credit for his versatility but I certainly don;t see why that should stand against him. And I also believe that Mullane is one of the two best corner forwards of the last 20 years, even without the two players per County restriction.

Because of what you said about the all-irelands, they're the only other players there (aside from the Cannings) pretty much that haven't won all-irelands. I have nothing against Limerick, and I'm sure you've nothing against Waterford. I was just using them as an examples of how some of the best individual players never win all-irelands and that has to be taken into account when devising your teams.

Right, for starters in your previous post you intentionally misrepresented what I said, you left out the word "the" when you responded with your "There I said it" guff. "Waterford have no outstanding players in a particular position" and "Waterford don't have the outstanding player in a particular position" are two very different statements.

Maybe in Waterford you believe that Ken McGrath is hands down the best centre back of the last 25 years but most non-Waterford biased people outside Waterford don't, as is evidenced by most the posts in this thread. Great player by all means, but sorry- Seanie McMahon was an outstanding centre back.

And you also conveniently forget that I said "Also, it can't be said that a Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position for in the last 20 years, perhaps with the exception of John Mullane who has consistently played at a high standard at corner forward.", so I have already said that a case can be made for him. And just because Nicky English says something doesn't make it gospel.

Mountainlad

jordainius wrote: »

Right, for starters in your previous post you intentionally misrepresented what I said, you left out the word "the" when you responded with your "There I said it" guff. "Waterford have no outstanding players in a particular position" and "Waterford don't have the outstanding player in a particular position" are two very different statements.

Maybe in Waterford you believe that Ken McGrath is hands down the best centre back of the last 25 years but most non-Waterford biased people outside Waterford don't, as is evidenced by most the posts in this thread. Great player by all means, but sorry- Seanie McMahon was an outstanding centre back.

And you also conveniently forget that I said "Also, it can't be said that a Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position for in the last 20 years, perhaps with the exception of John Mullane who has consistently played at a high standard at corner forward.", so I have already said that a case can be made for him. And just because Nicky English says something doesn't make it gospel.

There's one thing I did accidentally leave out of my last post. Of course Nicky doesn't have the final word in all things hurling. It does make the point valid however, and Ken is held in high regard by many. I know McMahon was an outstading centre back, but I saw him play but not much admittedly, whereas I saw Ken give countless master classes.

You are definitely overstating the importance of that word because I knew exactly how you meant it, and my response should have been clear that I consider Ken and Mullane two merit inclusion as the best in those position.

Yeah I guess you did, I was probably being a bit pedantic given your use of the word 'perhaps'.

I'm not sure you can say most people would say McMahon was better than Ken based solely on this thread it's a fairly small sample but I've no issue if people do think he was the better player.

These threads by their very nature are biased to some degree. As a Wateford supporter, and you as a Limerick man, it is only natural that we will have seen our own players more often than others. Mark Foley for example was on your team, and not on anybody elses. I thought he was a great hurler from what I saw of him, but wouldn't have him on my team. But then I didn't see him as much as you, nor did most people on this thread so that's fair enough.

Ultimately, you are going to get several differing opinions, particularly with the restricitve format. My main issue with your post was that you said you can't say that a Waterford player was the outstanding player of the last 20 years (with the exception of Mullane). Of course you can.

Fergus_Nash

Lads, calm down and drink tea. Be happy that you're not from Wicklow and can at least argue for the inclusion of somebody from you're own county.

premierstone

Have to agree with Mountainlad here, there is no way in hell you could honestly pick a team, of the last 20 years and not include a single Waterford player, its laughable to be honest, and as a side Ken McGrath was on a different planet to Sean McMahon. As was Corcoran and Whelehan, a more realistic comparison would be Brick Walsh and Seanie Mac.

cat in the sack

as someone once said good hurlers might win munster or leinster titles or league, but great ones win all irelands.