Best Hurling team of last 20 years.... With one small catch

Folks,

This is up to each persons opinion, no point in getting upset about it or trying to argue it, they aren't right or wrong, they are just opinions.

Mountainlad wrote: »

Look lad, I did not make this personal at all. I never accused you of anything. Though I hope you've noted the contradiction in those posts I've quoted. I was aware of what it said in the sentence before. But first you said there wasn't a Waterford player that was the outstanding player in a position over the last 20 years, then you said maybe Mullane. Then you said you personally wouldn't consider any Waterford player (which is a statement that includes Mullane) in your team if it wasn't limited to two per county. Now if you left it at that I'd say ok, that's your opinion, fair enough.

But then you told Premierstone that you personallywould have Mullane in the team if the restrictions weren't in place. So what argument were you trying to make?

Yes you did make it personal, "lad" ("lad" being one example of you making it personal.). I've edited my previous post since you posted this, like I said- I've said many times that I'd most likely include Mullane, not definite as if I sat down to properly think it I might think of someone else. I'm not going to sit down and spend a few hours deliberating on who has difinitively been the best player in all 15 positions. I said at one stage "I probably wouldn't", I didn't fully elaborate on what I probably meant to say as I was tired and it was late- my stance in general all along has been that there is not one Waterford player I can say with absolute certainty is head and shoulders above all other players to have played in that position (I'm getting sick of saying that over and over) but off the top of my head, John Mullane would probably make it. Players who would definitly make it? The only players I'd consider in that bracket are Ollie Canning, Henry Shefflin and DJ Carey. All other positions have more than a few strong candidates.

Look at the goalkeeping position for instance; It's very hard to pick one from Fitzgerald, Fitzhenry, Cummins and Cusack.

My problems with your initial post is simple:

1. You made a remark that there would be two Waterford players on every team if they'd won an all-ireland. I was trying to point out that that is not a barrier to Limerick players for example, and I don't see why it should be a reason for excluding them. As was said earlier, the best of teams have passengers and even poor teams can produce an incredible player.

It probably is a barrier for Limerick players; Joe Quaid, Ciaran Carey, Gary Kirby, Mike Houlihan and possibly Steve McDonagh and Mark Foley were all top players and had Limerick won one or both of the 1994 and 1996 finals I'm sure those players would be appearing more often. I'm not saying I agree with it; I'm saying that's what happens. If someone can't pick between two outstanding players for a particular position, the tie breaker will probably come down to looking at how many All-Irelands or All-Stars a player won. If Limerick won All-Irelands in the 1990's and Waterford won All-Irelands in the 2000's, I believe they would appear more often in peoples teams. You seem to think that I said that was fair; I never said that.

2. You said that it can't be said that a Waterford player was the outstanding player in a position over 20 years. Given this all boils down to everyone's opinion, you can say who you like was best as long as you're being honest. You included Mark Foley, not a popular choice, but you don't see me telling you that you can't include him. That's your choice.

And that is true. A strong case can be made for John Mullane at corner forward, but there are only 4 of 5 players at most for whom it can be said that "Player X has been the outstanding player in position Y".

I never told anyone, "you can't include this player", I said that in Ken McGrath's case that his versatility counts against him when it comes to picking a team like this, he is not seen as the master of a particular position, an outstanding versatile hurler, I stated that a particular player is being overlooked for a particular reason. But I NEVER said to ANYONE that they can't include a particular player, so your point there does not apply to me at all.

I don't think people should be getting too upset if Waterford players are overlooked in other peoples teams, please understand that I am not complaining about any perceived lack of representation of Waterford players here.

I know you're not, but I have not complained about anyone elses selection, I have not questioned anyone elses selection, I have not criticised anyone for picking or not picking a particular player.

jordainius wrote: »

Get over yourself, as I already told you yesterday you're making this personal for some bizarre reason. Also note probably does not mean definitly.

Also, you read the sentence DIRECTLY BEFORE the one you highlighted.

Look lad, I did not make this personal at all. I never accused you of anything. Though I hope you've noted the contradiction in those posts I've quoted. I was aware of what it said in the sentence before. But first you said there wasn't a Waterford player that was the outstanding player in a position over the last 20 years, then you said maybe Mullane. Then you said you personally wouldn't consider any Waterford player (which is a statement that includes Mullane) in your team if it wasn't limited to two per county. Now if you left it at that I'd say ok, that's your opinion, fair enough.

But then you told Premierstone that you personallywould have Mullane in the team if the restrictions weren't in place. So what argument were you trying to make?

My problems with your initial post is simple:

1. You made a remark that there would be two Waterford players on every team if they'd won an all-ireland. I was trying to point out that that is not a barrier to Limerick players for example, and I don't see why it should be a reason for excluding them. As was said earlier, the best of teams have passengers and even poor teams can produce an incredible player.

2. You said that it can't be said that a Waterford player was the outstanding player in a position over 20 years. Given this all boils down to everyone's opinion, you can say who you like was best as long as you're being honest. You included Mark Foley, not a popular choice, but you don't see me telling you that you can't include him. That's your choice.

I don't think people should be getting too upset if Waterford players are overlooked in other peoples teams, please understand that I am not complaining about any perceived lack of representation of Waterford players here.

Mountainlad wrote: »

No, you didn't.

Get over yourself, as I already told you yesterday you're making this personal for some bizarre reason. Also note; probably does not mean definitly.

Also, read the sentence DIRECTLY BEFORE the one you highlighted.

I'll say it a third (or fourth?) time; I more than likely would include John Mullane on the team; if you want to latch onto a seemingly contradictory comment I wrote in a message in the early hours of the morning when I was tired then off with you, good luck with it. But it's pretty clear to everyone else that it is fairly clear that I am saying that I would more than likely include John Mullane on my team.

jordainius wrote: »

Had they actually won an All-Ireland in that time they'd have two on most teams.

Also, it can't be said that a Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position for in the last 20 years, perhaps with the exception of John Mullane who has consistently played at a high standard at corner forward.

If there was no restriction on picking players per county, I for one probably wouldn't have a Waterford man on my XV and I doubt I would be alone in doing so.

jordainius wrote: »

I've already said that I would more than likely include John Mullane on a restriction free team of the last 20 years.

No, you didn't.

Bogger77

What kind of team are we picking, are we picking a team of great players that could play together and perform like a proper team, or are we just picking a team of great players for a "paper" team.

we have lots of selections with backs that liked to go forward, and no one minding the house, we have lots of players selected who would poison (and did poison many's) the dressing room.

and what's with the "must have a Waterford player" jibes, there's not been many players, apart from John Mullane, that consistently were the best player in their position, over a year, let alone 20 years. And while I'm trying to pick my team, in real life it's hard to know which John would turn up for the match.

Bogger77

Mountainlad wrote: »

Great teams win all-irelands. Put Henry, DJ, Tommy Walsh, Delaney, Fennelly and Brennan on a team with 9 u14s and we'd see what they'd have won.

at least 2 Leinster's, and probably a couple of leagues!

premierstone wrote: »

Have to agree with Mountainlad here, there is no way in hell you could honestly pick a team, of the last 20 years and not include a single Waterford player, its laughable to be honest, and as a side Ken McGrath was on a different planet to Sean McMahon. As was Corcoran and Whelehan, a more realistic comparison would be Brick Walsh and Seanie Mac.

I've already said that I would more than likely include John Mullane on a restriction free team of the last 20 years.

However, it would be rather foolish to call the following team off the top of my head; "laughable";
Davy Fitzgerald, Michael Kavanagh, Diarmuid O'Sullivan, Ollie Canning, Tommy Walsh, Seanie McMahon, Brian Whelehan, Tommy Dunne, Jerry O'Connor, Jamesie O'Connor, Henry Shefflin, DJ Carey, Eddie Brennan, Joe Canning, Eoin Kelly (Tip).

I would personally have Mullane at 13, BUT, that team is anything but "laughable", there is a very strong case for that team which doesn't include a Waterford player. That XV is far from laughable, it would be ridiculous to call it that.

As for McGrath v McMahon; Ken McGrath was an exceptional all round hurler, a jack of all trades, similar to Ciaran Carey in Limerick for example, a better all round hurler than Sean McMahon, but McMahon was an exceptional centre back. Better player; McGrath. Better centre back; McMahon.

Volvic12

premierstone wrote: »

You have three from Clare there and if Ollie Canning was missing an arm he would still be a better corner back than Frank Lohan, or Sherlock for that matter.

Fair point, forgot about Ollie Canning. Easily fixed - replaced Frank Lohan

cat in the sack wrote: »

as someone once said good hurlers might win munster or leinster titles or league, but great ones win all irelands.

Someone who had no idea what they were talking about obviously. Transport that theory to other sports and see how silly it is, Messi, Ronaldo, Best, Cryuff etc etc all only good players I assume as they never won a World Cup?

A hurler cannot be judged on the county of their birth, there are some distinclty ordinary hurlers with all ireland medals and on the other side of it some of the games greatest players have never reached the holy grail, Ollie Canning, Ciaran Carey, Ken McGrath, Tony Browne, John Mullane are just examples from the last 20 years, there were many many more before them.

Volvic12 wrote: »

Tough one as obviously leaving loads of prominent players out.

1.Davy Fitz (Clare)

2. Wayne Sherlock (Cork)
3. Brian Lohan (Clare)
4. Frank Lohan (Clare)

5. Tommy Walsh (KK)
6. Ciaran Carey (Limerick)
7. Ken McGrath (Waterford)

8. Jerry O' Connor (Cork)
9. Tommy Dunne (Tipp)

10. Johnny Dooley (Offaly)
11. Gary Kirby (Limerick)
12. Martin Storey (Wexford)

13. Eoin Kelly (Tipp)
14. Joe Canning (Galway)
15. DJ Carey (KK)

You have three from Clare there and if Ollie Canning was missing an arm he would still be a better corner back than Frank Lohan, or Sherlock for that matter.

Volvic12

Tough one as obviously leaving loads of prominent players out.

1.Davy Fitz (Clare)

2. Wayne Sherlock (Cork)
3. Brian Lohan (Clare)
4. Ollie Canning (Galway)

5. Tommy Walsh (KK)
6. Ciaran Carey (Limerick)
7. Ken McGrath (Waterford)

8. Jerry O' Connor (Cork)
9. Tommy Dunne (Tipp)

10. Johnny Dooley (Offaly)
11. Gary Kirby (Limerick)
12. Martin Storey (Wexford)

13. Eoin Kelly (Tipp)
14. Joe Canning (Galway)
15. DJ Carey (KK)

cat in the sack wrote: »

as someone once said good hurlers might win munster or leinster titles or league, but great ones win all irelands.

Great teams win all-irelands. Put Henry, DJ, Tommy Walsh, Delaney, Fennelly and Brennan on a team with 9 u14s and we'd see what they'd have won.

cat in the sack

as someone once said good hurlers might win munster or leinster titles or league, but great ones win all irelands.

Have to agree with Mountainlad here, there is no way in hell you could honestly pick a team, of the last 20 years and not include a single Waterford player, its laughable to be honest, and as a side Ken McGrath was on a different planet to Sean McMahon. As was Corcoran and Whelehan, a more realistic comparison would be Brick Walsh and Seanie Mac.

Fergus_Nash

Lads, calm down and drink tea. Be happy that you're not from Wicklow and can at least argue for the inclusion of somebody from you're own county.

jordainius wrote: »

Right, for starters in your previous post you intentionally misrepresented what I said, you left out the word "the" when you responded with your "There I said it" guff. "Waterford have no outstanding players in a particular position" and "Waterford don't have the outstanding player in a particular position" are two very different statements.

Maybe in Waterford you believe that Ken McGrath is hands down the best centre back of the last 25 years but most non-Waterford biased people outside Waterford don't, as is evidenced by most the posts in this thread. Great player by all means, but sorry- Seanie McMahon was an outstanding centre back.

And you also conveniently forget that I said "Also, it can't be said that a Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position for in the last 20 years, perhaps with the exception of John Mullane who has consistently played at a high standard at corner forward.", so I have already said that a case can be made for him. And just because Nicky English says something doesn't make it gospel.

There's one thing I did accidentally leave out of my last post. Of course Nicky doesn't have the final word in all things hurling. It does make the point valid however, and Ken is held in high regard by many. I know McMahon was an outstading centre back, but I saw him play but not much admittedly, whereas I saw Ken give countless master classes.

You are definitely overstating the importance of that word because I knew exactly how you meant it, and my response should have been clear that I consider Ken and Mullane two merit inclusion as the best in those position.

Yeah I guess you did, I was probably being a bit pedantic given your use of the word 'perhaps'.

I'm not sure you can say most people would say McMahon was better than Ken based solely on this thread it's a fairly small sample but I've no issue if people do think he was the better player.

These threads by their very nature are biased to some degree. As a Wateford supporter, and you as a Limerick man, it is only natural that we will have seen our own players more often than others. Mark Foley for example was on your team, and not on anybody elses. I thought he was a great hurler from what I saw of him, but wouldn't have him on my team. But then I didn't see him as much as you, nor did most people on this thread so that's fair enough.

Ultimately, you are going to get several differing opinions, particularly with the restricitve format. My main issue with your post was that you said you can't say that a Waterford player was the outstanding player of the last 20 years (with the exception of Mullane). Of course you can.

Mountainlad wrote: »

Yep. I believe Ken McGrath was the best centre back of the last 20 years. And I did see Seanie McMahon, not as much as others I'm sure. He was outstanding of course, but Ken McGrath is to me. Nicky English said he was the best player of the last 25 years in 2009. Of course, maybe he gave him credit for his versatility but I certainly don;t see why that should stand against him. And I also believe that Mullane is one of the two best corner forwards of the last 20 years, even without the two players per County restriction.

Because of what you said about the all-irelands, they're the only other players there (aside from the Cannings) pretty much that haven't won all-irelands. I have nothing against Limerick, and I'm sure you've nothing against Waterford. I was just using them as an examples of how some of the best individual players never win all-irelands and that has to be taken into account when devising your teams.

Right, for starters in your previous post you intentionally misrepresented what I said, you left out the word "the" when you responded with your "There I said it" guff. "Waterford have no outstanding players in a particular position" and "Waterford don't have the outstanding player in a particular position" are two very different statements.

Maybe in Waterford you believe that Ken McGrath is hands down the best centre back of the last 25 years but most non-Waterford biased people outside Waterford don't, as is evidenced by most the posts in this thread. Great player by all means, but sorry- Seanie McMahon was an outstanding centre back.

And you also conveniently forget that I said "Also, it can't be said that a Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position for in the last 20 years, perhaps with the exception of John Mullane who has consistently played at a high standard at corner forward.", so I have already said that a case can be made for him. And just because Nicky English says something doesn't make it gospel.

jordainius wrote: »

More than one Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position in the last 20 years? Above all others?? Because that's what I'm saying is not the case in my last post and that's what you're disagreeing with...

Don't know why you're bringing Limerick players into it, unless you're getting personal for some strange reason??

Yep. I believe Ken McGrath was the best centre back of the last 20 years. And I did see Seanie McMahon, not as much as others I'm sure. He was outstanding of course, but Ken McGrath is to me. Nicky English said he was the best player of the last 25 years in 2009. Of course, maybe he gave him credit for his versatility but I certainly don;t see why that should stand against him. And I also believe that Mullane is one of the two best corner forwards of the last 20 years, even without the two players per County restriction.

Because of what you said about the all-irelands, they're the only other players there (aside from the Cannings) pretty much that haven't won all-irelands. I have nothing against Limerick, and I'm sure you've nothing against Waterford. I was just using them as an examples of how some of the best individual players never win all-irelands and that has to be taken into account when devising your teams.

Mountainlad wrote: »

More than one Waterford player has been outstanding in a particular position. There. I said it. Wasn't very difficult to be honest.

In all seriousness, Mullane has made practically every team and rightly so, because I think the stats show that he is at the very least in the top 3 most proflific forwards from play, and I think I heard that he was the most somwhere.

Ken McGrath was outstanding in every position he played in bar full back. He gave 5 years nearly of incredible hurling at centre back, and I think given the format should (and is) included on nearly every team. Joe Canning has been hurling in the forwards (between the half forward line and full forward line for Galway) for 5 years now and hasn't shown anything like that consistency of excellent performances and yet he is included on practically every team. Flynn was a phenomenal talent too, and Tony Browne.

I don't know if you were making a general point about the all-irelands thing or whether you think it makes a player more entitled to be on this team, but it's worth bearing in mind that none of Kirby, McDonagh, Ciaran Carey or Foley have won all-irelands either. I for one don't think that all-irelands should come into the equation when you pick your best 15 of the last 20 years.

By the way, I'm not bemoaning any exclusions of Waterford players here. I agree that everybody has favourites and seen more of different players, and there for have different perspectives. I just don't agree with your last post.

More than one Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position in the last 20 years? Above all others?? Because that's what I'm saying is not the case in my last post and that's what you're disagreeing with...

Don't know why you're bringing Limerick players into it, unless you're getting personal for some strange reason??

jordainius wrote: »

Had they actually won an All-Ireland in that time they'd have two on most teams.

Also, it can't be said that a Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position for in the last 20 years, perhaps with the exception of John Mullane who has consistently played at a high standard at corner forward.

If there was no restriction on picking players per county, I for one probably wouldn't have a Waterford man on my XV and I doubt I would be alone in doing so.

More than one Waterford player has been outstanding in a particular position. There. I said it. Wasn't very difficult to be honest.

In all seriousness, Mullane has made practically every team and rightly so, because I think the stats show that he is at the very least in the top 3 most proflific forwards from play, and I think I heard that he was the most somwhere.

Ken McGrath was outstanding in every position he played in bar full back. He gave 5 years nearly of incredible hurling at centre back, and I think given the format should (and is) included on nearly every team. Joe Canning has been hurling in the forwards (between the half forward line and full forward line for Galway) for 5 years now and hasn't shown anything like that consistency of excellent performances and yet he is included on practically every team. Flynn was a phenomenal talent too, and Tony Browne.

I don't know if you were making a general point about the all-irelands thing or whether you think it makes a player more entitled to be on this team, but it's worth bearing in mind that none of Kirby, McDonagh, Ciaran Carey or Foley have won all-irelands either. I for one don't think that all-irelands should come into the equation when you pick your best 15 of the last 20 years.

By the way, I'm not bemoaning any exclusions of Waterford players here. I agree that everybody has favourites and seen more of different players, and there for have different perspectives. I just don't agree with your last post.

Clareman wrote: »

In fairness Waterford have been 1 of the most high profile teams in the past 20 years and have had some great players, it's a bit telling that they are over-looked by some people (myself included) for a team of the past 2 decades whereas other teams (Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Offaly) have all people included by most posters.

Had they actually won an All-Ireland in that time they'd have two on most teams.

Also, it can't be said that a Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position for in the last 20 years, perhaps with the exception of John Mullane who has consistently played at a high standard at corner forward.

If there was no restriction on picking players per county, I for one probably wouldn't have a Waterford man on my XV and I doubt I would be alone in doing so.

Juniorhurler

Clareman wrote: »

In fairness Waterford have been 1 of the most high profile teams in the past 20 years and have had some great players, it's a bit telling that they are over-looked by some people (myself included) for a team of the past 2 decades whereas other teams (Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Offaly) have all people included by most posters.

TRUE. My point is that it is somebody elses opinion. Allow them to have it coz seeing different opinions is the fun of a thread like this.

Juniorhurler wrote: »

you get fair excited by people not picking Waterford men. Its other peoples opinions,and as the saying goes, opinions are like arseholes everybody has one.

In fairness Waterford have been 1 of the most high profile teams in the past 20 years and have had some great players, it's a bit telling that they are over-looked by some people (myself included) for a team of the past 2 decades whereas other teams (Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Offaly) have all people included by most posters.

Juniorhurler

blue note wrote: »

Not a single Waterford player good enough to make the team? We were constantly being criticised for being a team of individuals, surely one of them over the years could get it?

you get fair excited by people not picking Waterford men. Its other peoples opinions,and as the saying goes, opinions are like arseholes everybody has one.

Didn't realise that, I got my team by starting in the 90s, taking some of the best players from then and adding to it, I guess Martin Storey or Gary Kirby could be swapped out, but Storey was immense in 96 and I honestly think that Kirby was the best player never to win an All Ireland, his frees alone would keep his team in it.

I just realised I've an awful lot of free takers on that team.

blue note

Clareman wrote: »

Wow, that was difficult

Damien Fitzhenry (WX)

Ollie Canning (GY)
Donal O'Sullivan (CK)
Stephen McDonagh (LK)

Tommy Walsh (KK)
Sean McMahon (CE)
Brian Whelehan (Off)

Tommy Dunne (TP)
Colin Lynch (CE)

Jimmy Dooley (Off)
Henry Shefflin (KK)
Martin Storey (WX)

Joe Dean (CK)
Joe Canning (GY)
Gary Kirby (LK)

Not a single Waterford player good enough to make the team? We were constantly being criticised for being a team of individuals, surely one of them over the years could get it?

Clareman wrote: »

Wow, that was difficult

Damien Fitzhenry (WX)

Ollie Canning (GY)
Donal O'Sullivan (CK)
Stephen McDonagh (LK)

Tommy Walsh (KK)
Sean McMahon (CE)
Brian Whelehan (Off)

Tommy Dunne (TP)
Colin Lynch (CE)

Jimmy Dooley (Off)
Henry Shefflin (KK)
Martin Storey (WX)

Joe Dean (CK)
Joe Canning (GY)
Gary Kirby (LK)

You really wouldn't have Eoin Kelly ahead of 5 of those forwards, or John Mullane for that matter??

Manzoor14

Phew, I spent way too long thinking about this! Really tough one but:

D Fitzhenry WX

O Canning GY
B Lohan CE
T Walsh KK

B Whelahan OY
S McMahon CE
K McGrath WD

J Dooley OY
C Carey LM

J Mullane WD
M Storey WX
H Shefflin KK

E Kelly TP
J Canning GW
J Deane CK

Big losers: Jamsie O'Connor, DJ Carey, JJ Delaney, Paul Flynn.