Best Hurling team of last 20 years.... With one small catch

Mountainlad

cat in the sack wrote: »

as someone once said good hurlers might win munster or leinster titles or league, but great ones win all irelands.

Great teams win all-irelands. Put Henry, DJ, Tommy Walsh, Delaney, Fennelly and Brennan on a team with 9 u14s and we'd see what they'd have won.

Volvic12

Tough one as obviously leaving loads of prominent players out.

1.Davy Fitz (Clare)

2. Wayne Sherlock (Cork)
3. Brian Lohan (Clare)
4. Ollie Canning (Galway)

5. Tommy Walsh (KK)
6. Ciaran Carey (Limerick)
7. Ken McGrath (Waterford)

8. Jerry O' Connor (Cork)
9. Tommy Dunne (Tipp)

10. Johnny Dooley (Offaly)
11. Gary Kirby (Limerick)
12. Martin Storey (Wexford)


13. Eoin Kelly (Tipp)
14. Joe Canning (Galway)
15. DJ Carey (KK)

premierstone

Volvic12 wrote: »

Tough one as obviously leaving loads of prominent players out.

1.Davy Fitz (Clare)

2. Wayne Sherlock (Cork)
3. Brian Lohan (Clare)
4. Frank Lohan (Clare)

5. Tommy Walsh (KK)
6. Ciaran Carey (Limerick)
7. Ken McGrath (Waterford)

8. Jerry O' Connor (Cork)
9. Tommy Dunne (Tipp)

10. Johnny Dooley (Offaly)
11. Gary Kirby (Limerick)
12. Martin Storey (Wexford)


13. Eoin Kelly (Tipp)
14. Joe Canning (Galway)
15. DJ Carey (KK)

You have three from Clare there and if Ollie Canning was missing an arm he would still be a better corner back than Frank Lohan, or Sherlock for that matter.

premierstone

cat in the sack wrote: »

as someone once said good hurlers might win munster or leinster titles or league, but great ones win all irelands.

Someone who had no idea what they were talking about obviously. Transport that theory to other sports and see how silly it is, Messi, Ronaldo, Best, Cryuff etc etc all only good players I assume as they never won a World Cup?

A hurler cannot be judged on the county of their birth, there are some distinclty ordinary hurlers with all ireland medals and on the other side of it some of the games greatest players have never reached the holy grail, Ollie Canning, Ciaran Carey, Ken McGrath, Tony Browne, John Mullane are just examples from the last 20 years, there were many many more before them.

Volvic12

premierstone wrote: »

You have three from Clare there and if Ollie Canning was missing an arm he would still be a better corner back than Frank Lohan, or Sherlock for that matter.

Fair point, forgot about Ollie Canning. Easily fixed - replaced Frank Lohan

jordainius

premierstone wrote: »

Have to agree with Mountainlad here, there is no way in hell you could honestly pick a team, of the last 20 years and not include a single Waterford player, its laughable to be honest, and as a side Ken McGrath was on a different planet to Sean McMahon. As was Corcoran and Whelehan, a more realistic comparison would be Brick Walsh and Seanie Mac.

I've already said that I would more than likely include John Mullane on a restriction free team of the last 20 years.

However, it would be rather foolish to call the following team off the top of my head; "laughable";
Davy Fitzgerald, Michael Kavanagh, Diarmuid O'Sullivan, Ollie Canning, Tommy Walsh, Seanie McMahon, Brian Whelehan, Tommy Dunne, Jerry O'Connor, Jamesie O'Connor, Henry Shefflin, DJ Carey, Eddie Brennan, Joe Canning, Eoin Kelly (Tip).

I would personally have Mullane at 13, BUT, that team is anything but "laughable", there is a very strong case for that team which doesn't include a Waterford player. That XV is far from laughable, it would be ridiculous to call it that.

As for McGrath v McMahon; Ken McGrath was an exceptional all round hurler, a jack of all trades, similar to Ciaran Carey in Limerick for example, a better all round hurler than Sean McMahon, but McMahon was an exceptional centre back. Better player; McGrath. Better centre back; McMahon.

Bogger77

Mountainlad wrote: »

Great teams win all-irelands. Put Henry, DJ, Tommy Walsh, Delaney, Fennelly and Brennan on a team with 9 u14s and we'd see what they'd have won.

at least 2 Leinster's, and probably a couple of leagues!

Bogger77

What kind of team are we picking, are we picking a team of great players that could play together and perform like a proper team, or are we just picking a team of great players for a "paper" team.

we have lots of selections with backs that liked to go forward, and no one minding the house, we have lots of players selected who would poison (and did poison many's) the dressing room.

and what's with the "must have a Waterford player" jibes, there's not been many players, apart from John Mullane, that consistently were the best player in their position, over a year, let alone 20 years. And while I'm trying to pick my team, in real life it's hard to know which John would turn up for the match.

Mountainlad

jordainius wrote: »

Had they actually won an All-Ireland in that time they'd have two on most teams.

Also, it can't be said that a Waterford player has been the outstanding player in a particular position for in the last 20 years, perhaps with the exception of John Mullane who has consistently played at a high standard at corner forward.

If there was no restriction on picking players per county, I for one probably wouldn't have a Waterford man on my XV and I doubt I would be alone in doing so.

jordainius wrote: »

I've already said that I would more than likely include John Mullane on a restriction free team of the last 20 years.

No, you didn't.

jordainius

Mountainlad wrote: »

No, you didn't.

Get over yourself, as I already told you yesterday you're making this personal for some bizarre reason. Also note; probably does not mean definitly.

Also, read the sentence DIRECTLY BEFORE the one you highlighted.

I'll say it a third (or fourth?) time; I more than likely would include John Mullane on the team; if you want to latch onto a seemingly contradictory comment I wrote in a message in the early hours of the morning when I was tired then off with you, good luck with it. But it's pretty clear to everyone else that it is fairly clear that I am saying that I would more than likely include John Mullane on my team.

Mountainlad

jordainius wrote: »

Get over yourself, as I already told you yesterday you're making this personal for some bizarre reason. Also note probably does not mean definitly.

Also, you read the sentence DIRECTLY BEFORE the one you highlighted.

Look lad, I did not make this personal at all. I never accused you of anything. Though I hope you've noted the contradiction in those posts I've quoted. I was aware of what it said in the sentence before. But first you said there wasn't a Waterford player that was the outstanding player in a position over the last 20 years, then you said maybe Mullane. Then you said you personally wouldn't consider any Waterford player (which is a statement that includes Mullane) in your team if it wasn't limited to two per county. Now if you left it at that I'd say ok, that's your opinion, fair enough.

But then you told Premierstone that you personallywould have Mullane in the team if the restrictions weren't in place. So what argument were you trying to make?

My problems with your initial post is simple:

1. You made a remark that there would be two Waterford players on every team if they'd won an all-ireland. I was trying to point out that that is not a barrier to Limerick players for example, and I don't see why it should be a reason for excluding them. As was said earlier, the best of teams have passengers and even poor teams can produce an incredible player.

2. You said that it can't be said that a Waterford player was the outstanding player in a position over 20 years. Given this all boils down to everyone's opinion, you can say who you like was best as long as you're being honest. You included Mark Foley, not a popular choice, but you don't see me telling you that you can't include him. That's your choice.

I don't think people should be getting too upset if Waterford players are overlooked in other peoples teams, please understand that I am not complaining about any perceived lack of representation of Waterford players here.

jordainius

Mountainlad wrote: »

Look lad, I did not make this personal at all. I never accused you of anything. Though I hope you've noted the contradiction in those posts I've quoted. I was aware of what it said in the sentence before. But first you said there wasn't a Waterford player that was the outstanding player in a position over the last 20 years, then you said maybe Mullane. Then you said you personally wouldn't consider any Waterford player (which is a statement that includes Mullane) in your team if it wasn't limited to two per county. Now if you left it at that I'd say ok, that's your opinion, fair enough.

But then you told Premierstone that you personallywould have Mullane in the team if the restrictions weren't in place. So what argument were you trying to make?

Yes you did make it personal, "lad" ("lad" being one example of you making it personal.). I've edited my previous post since you posted this, like I said- I've said many times that I'd most likely include Mullane, not definite as if I sat down to properly think it I might think of someone else. I'm not going to sit down and spend a few hours deliberating on who has difinitively been the best player in all 15 positions. I said at one stage "I probably wouldn't", I didn't fully elaborate on what I probably meant to say as I was tired and it was late- my stance in general all along has been that there is not one Waterford player I can say with absolute certainty is head and shoulders above all other players to have played in that position (I'm getting sick of saying that over and over) but off the top of my head, John Mullane would probably make it. Players who would definitly make it? The only players I'd consider in that bracket are Ollie Canning, Henry Shefflin and DJ Carey. All other positions have more than a few strong candidates.

Look at the goalkeeping position for instance; It's very hard to pick one from Fitzgerald, Fitzhenry, Cummins and Cusack.

My problems with your initial post is simple:

1. You made a remark that there would be two Waterford players on every team if they'd won an all-ireland. I was trying to point out that that is not a barrier to Limerick players for example, and I don't see why it should be a reason for excluding them. As was said earlier, the best of teams have passengers and even poor teams can produce an incredible player.

It probably is a barrier for Limerick players; Joe Quaid, Ciaran Carey, Gary Kirby, Mike Houlihan and possibly Steve McDonagh and Mark Foley were all top players and had Limerick won one or both of the 1994 and 1996 finals I'm sure those players would be appearing more often. I'm not saying I agree with it; I'm saying that's what happens. If someone can't pick between two outstanding players for a particular position, the tie breaker will probably come down to looking at how many All-Irelands or All-Stars a player won. If Limerick won All-Irelands in the 1990's and Waterford won All-Irelands in the 2000's, I believe they would appear more often in peoples teams. You seem to think that I said that was fair; I never said that.

2. You said that it can't be said that a Waterford player was the outstanding player in a position over 20 years. Given this all boils down to everyone's opinion, you can say who you like was best as long as you're being honest. You included Mark Foley, not a popular choice, but you don't see me telling you that you can't include him. That's your choice.

And that is true. A strong case can be made for John Mullane at corner forward, but there are only 4 of 5 players at most for whom it can be said that "Player X has been the outstanding player in position Y".

I never told anyone, "you can't include this player", I said that in Ken McGrath's case that his versatility counts against him when it comes to picking a team like this, he is not seen as the master of a particular position, an outstanding versatile hurler, I stated that a particular player is being overlooked for a particular reason. But I NEVER said to ANYONE that they can't include a particular player, so your point there does not apply to me at all.

I don't think people should be getting too upset if Waterford players are overlooked in other peoples teams, please understand that I am not complaining about any perceived lack of representation of Waterford players here.

I know you're not, but I have not complained about anyone elses selection, I have not questioned anyone elses selection, I have not criticised anyone for picking or not picking a particular player.

Clareman

Folks,

This is up to each persons opinion, no point in getting upset about it or trying to argue it, they aren't right or wrong, they are just opinions.