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Dunnes settle with woman over wearing a Hijab

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    #62
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Shenshen wrote: »
    And wearing jeans would not affect my capability to work on a computer.
    Nevertheless, the company has a dress code policy, and I have to comply if I want to work here.

    and if your employer insisted that women had to wear skirts and only men could wear trousers?


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    #63
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    I can´t understand what issue people could possibly have with a hijab? It´s just a scarf you wear on your head ffs!! Absolutely ridiculous not to allow it. It´s like saying somebody can´t wear a cross.


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    #64
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    LeeHoffmann wrote: »
    I can´t understand what issue people could possibly have with a hijab? It´s just a scarf you wear on your head ffs!! Absolutely ridiculous not to allow it. It´s like saying somebody can´t wear a cross.

    A baseball cap is just a hat on your head, should all the lads in Dunnes be allowed wear those? What about football jerseys instead of Dunnes t-shirts?


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    #65
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It's not her own volition though, it is a requirement of her faith.

    A decent compromise would have been to allow her to wear a head scarf, but in the company's colours, or even provide her with a headcarf that was part of the uniform.

    having a blanket ban on headwear means you are descriminating against Muslim women.

    St Bernard value hjiabs, that'd be brilliant.


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    #66
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Shenshen wrote: »
    Well, if all of their staff signed up for jobs that specifically stated they had to be naked for them, and then refused to work naked, yes.

    It's not like Dunnes only introduced their uniform 2 days ago and were trying to force staff to wear it.
    In the case of my company, dress code is mentioned in my contract, and I'm sure it was mentioned in hers as well when she signed it.

    it doesn't matter what the company policy is. If the policy discriminates then it is wrong.


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    #67
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    Fratton Fred wrote: »

    There is no reason, other than company policy, why someone should not wear a headscarf at a check out.

    Well, and it is company policy.

    They don't have to justify their company policies.


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    #68
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    and if your employer insisted that women had to wear skirts and only men could wear trousers?

    like hmv just did?


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    #69
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    davet82 wrote: »
    i can agree maybe from a uniform angle but if its beliefs would there then not be a problem with lets say with ash wednesday or Bindis (indian dots) or maybe there is idk
    Don't know. I wouldn't want customer staff having ash on their face though. Bindis, me'h they don't bother me. It's a funny word though!


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    #70
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    and if your employer insisted that women had to wear skirts and only men could wear trousers?

    I wouldn't apply to work for the company. Simple, really.


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    #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    If my religion says I can't work on Sunday, can I get a weekend job at Dunnes and not turn up ?

    Nice fat settlement when I get fired.


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    #72
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    it doesn't matter what the company policy is. If the policy discriminates then it is wrong.

    It doesn't. It's the same rule for all, no discrimination.

    If an employee after working for the company for a while decides that they now have a problem with the dress code they signed up for originally, that's their problem, not the company's.


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    #73
    MajorMax
    Registered Users Posts: 865 ✭✭✭MajorMax


    Korvanica wrote: »
    Aren't they usually worn around the neck, under the uniform ? Not visible to the public ?

    If I ever work in Dunnes ill be donning my colander on the first day. And I will fight for my right to wear my religious kitchen tool.

    What's the point in uniforms if 1 person gets to wear something different ?

    http://thedailyedge.thejournal.ie/austrian-man-wins-three-year-battle-to-wear-pasta-strainer-on-driving-licence-photo-176196-Jul2011/ :D


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    #74
    Kenny Logins
    Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭Kenny Logins


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    it doesn't matter what the company policy is. If the policy discriminates then it is wrong.

    It doesn't discriminate, it says that all staff must wear the same uniform.


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    #75
    Cabbage_Head
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭Cabbage_Head


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if it's their choice or not. Preventing women from wearing headscarves effectively (or indirectly as the law would see it) discriminates against a certain section of society.

    There is no reason, other than company policy, why someone should not wear a headscarf at a check out.

    Yes it does matter if its their choice. Rules are rules and should be followed by everyone equally. Surely if rules are relaxed for people of a particular religion, thats where the unfairness comes in? Not to mention this particular woman has only recently decided she has to wear this headscarf


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    #76
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Fratton Fred wrote: »

    It doesn't matter if it's their choice or not.
    Hang on now.
    earlier, it was:
    It's not her own volition though, it is a requirement of her faith.
    Now that I have demonstrated that it is clearly a choice, you're changing your mind and deciding it's "discrimination" on some basis you have yet to explain. All you have done is repeatedly state that "it's discrimination".
    Not allowing someone to wear jeans is not discrimination. Not allowing men to wear long hair is not discrimination. Not allowing someone to wear a particular item of clothing they want to wear is not discrimination. It's standard policy which applies to EVERYONE. Allowing this woman to wear her own clothes would be more likely to be discrimination against everyone else.

    There is no reason, other than company policy, why someone should not wear a headscarf at a check out.

    Their company, their policy. It's reason enough.


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    #77
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    super_furry wrote: »
    Don't know of any religion to requires it's adherents to wear jeans but if there was one, I bet it would be Mormonism.
    I doubt it. They love a pair of slacks and a crisp white shirt, do the Mormons.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It's not her own volition though, it is a requirement of her faith.
    No, it's not. I'm currently working somewhere with a lot of Muslims, and there are probably more women who don't wear a hijab than women who do. It's a tradition and a choice, but nothing more.
    super_furry wrote: »
    A decent compromise would have been to allow her to wear a head scarf, but in the company's colours, or even provide her with a headcarf that was part of the uniform.
    I agree. If she wants to wear it then let her wear a hijab with 'DUNNES' written on it.


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    #78
    Korvanica
    Registered Users Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Korvanica


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    it doesn't matter what the company policy is. If the policy discriminates then it is wrong.

    The policy does not discriminate, that's the idea of a UNIFORM.
    UNIFORM
    u·ni·form/ˈyo͞onəˌfôrm/
    Adjective:
    Not changing in form or character; remaining the same in all cases and at all times: "a uniform decline in fertility".
    Noun:
    The distinctive clothing worn by members of the same organization or body or by children attending certain schools.

    So if they change this to allow religious clothing to be worn. It discriminates against non-religious people and people who are in religions that don't have clothing.


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    #79
    Where To
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭Where To


    If I was a voodoo witch doctor then Dunnes wouldn't have a problem with me having a machete down my trousers?

    Anybody that thinks that 'company policy' has nothing to do with religion is talking through their hole.


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    #80
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    krudler wrote: »
    like hmv just did?

    They didn't though.

    And on that subject
    retail-week.com wrote:
    It is important that the enforcement of any dress code does not result in discriminating against employees. The policy should be enforced consistently, but also sympathetically. Particular care should be taken where tattoos or piercings may be for religious or cultural reasons and temporary body art, such as henna, should also be considered. It is important that both male and female employees are treated in the same way, including in relation to piercings.


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    #81
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    It's just a scarf

    tell me, what if this were a woman who was suffering with alopecia or had chemotherapy and lost all her hair?


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    #82
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    A baseball cap is just a hat on your head, should all the lads in Dunnes be allowed wear those? What about football jerseys instead of Dunnes t-shirts?
    a baseball cap or football jersey would be inappropriate because it´s casual attire. A hijab is not casual attire. There is nothing offensive or inappropriate about it. People who wear it, do so in all situations and view it as an essential part of their clothing. A better analogy would be to compare the hijab to socks or underwear.


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    #83
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    Links234 wrote: »
    It's just a scarf

    tell me, what if this were a woman who was suffering with alopecia or had chemotherapy and lost all her hair?

    Wig, I suppose.
    But that would be for Dunnes to decide.


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    #84
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Princess Peach wrote: »
    Religion is held at different levels of importance by everyone though. I certainly couldn't work for a company that discriminated against my beliefs and customs. May seem daft to you but may be the right choice for a devout person.

    I think Dunnes needs to update their uniform policy to allow for Hijabs. They can specify the colour and that the face should be showing but I do see their current policy as discrimination. If all other employees can wear their hair however they want, shouldn't a woman have the option to cover hers?


    People typically get religion and custom arse backwards, the former tends to reflect the latter. The burkha is the product of culture not Islam, which merely reflects a culture.
    We have no cultural norm regarding covering your face or head as a mark of modesty in the western world (or not any more at least).
    The concept that a woman should be covered head to toe is culturally alien to us, as it is in most cultures that do not require women to behave as subserviant property.
    I am in no mood to make allowances for abhorrent cultural practices alien to our morality that allow the subversion of our hard fought cultural norms.
    Make no mistake, this is a test case in a cultural war by extremists to reinforce their seperateness and refusal to integrate. If we permit it, we permit ghettos and cultural silos and every other ill that arrives with the 'right' not to partake in a society's normative culture in the same what that we have done with the travelling community.


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    #85
    Park Royal
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Park Royal


    Pity she could not wear the scarf.....

    but I would be worried the huge amount of gob****es thats not shiites their

    mostly ok on their own....

    but our own home grown gob****es who would make her life a total misery....

    anything or anyone different would be subjected to constant abuse and torment

    from the waves of Irish gob****es she would encounter in a supermarket in

    Ireland in 2012......on a daily basis......lucky really she did not take the job....

    IMHO.;)


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    #86
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    I wonder how many devout Muslim women just forgot to wear their hijab on interview day?


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    #87
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    They didn't though.

    And on that subject

    Not paying £25 to read that article, thank you.

    The bit you quoted says uniforms should be enforced consistently....


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    #88
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    kylith wrote: »
    I doubt it. They love a pair of slacks and a crisp white shirt, do the Mormons.

    No, it's not. I'm currently working somewhere with a lot of Muslims, and there are probably more women who don't wear a hijab than women who do. It's a tradition and a choice, but nothing more.

    I agree. If she wants to wear it then let her wear a hijab with 'DUNNES' written on it.

    It is a tradition and a choice to some, but not others. Just like some Muslims drink alcohol, others do not.

    Islam, like Christianity, has differing levels of conformity. I know Catholics who use contraception, but others who insist it is the work of the devil.
    Korvanica wrote: »
    The policy does not discriminate, that's the idea of a UNIFORM.

    So if they change this to allow religious clothing to be worn. It discriminates against non-religious people and people who are in religions that don't have clothing.

    How so?


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    #89
    --Kaiser--
    Registered Users Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    It's time to stop pandering to people with stupid beliefs


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    #90
    Monty - the one and only
    Registered Users Posts: 3,274 ✭✭✭Monty - the one and only


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It's not her own volition though, it is a requirement of her faith.

    A decent compromise would have been to allow her to wear a head scarf, but in the company's colours, or even provide her with a headcarf that was part of the uniform.

    having a blanket ban on headwear means you are descriminating against Muslim women.

    Yet if you go to a muslim country you are required to follow their customs... no if's, but's or and's. If your faith demands that you wear it, don't get a job where you are required to wear a set uniform.


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    #91
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Hang on now.
    earlier, it was:

    Now that I have demonstrated that it is clearly a choice, you're changing your mind and deciding it's "discrimination" on some basis you have yet to explain. All you have done is repeatedly state that "it's discrimination".
    Not allowing someone to wear jeans is not discrimination. Not allowing men to wear long hair is not discrimination. Not allowing someone to wear a particular item of clothing they want to wear is not discrimination. It's standard policy which applies to EVERYONE. Allowing this woman to wear her own clothes would be more likely to be discrimination against everyone else.



    Their company, their policy. It's reason enough.

    Probably a misunderstanding., The uniform policy is the choice of the employer. Employers still have to adhere to equality act, so they cannot put in place a uniform policy that discriminates against someone based on their religion.

    A Sikh is technically not allowed to cut their hair, which is why they wear a turban to tidy it up. preventing someone from wearing a turban is discrimination is it not?


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