Dunnes settle with woman over wearing a Hijab

davet82

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/irishsun/irishsunnews/4643144/Hijab-or-her-job.html

A MUSLIM woman has agreed a settlement with Dunnes Stores after she left her job because she was not allowed to wear a hijab.

Ex-sales assistant Loreta Tavoraite claimed she wanted to work but could not do so due to the firm’s rigid staff uniforms policy.

Should they have settled? Would it bother you if somebody was serving you with a hijab on?

I dont really have a strong opinion on it either way but it interests me what people think

If people want to wear them on their own time that's fine but the place has a uniforms policy, take it or leave it

krudler

She would have been given a copy of the policy on being hired, if she didnt like it then tough.

Fratton Fred

Should they have settled? yes, of course. It appears that for this role, there was no reason why an employee should not wear a Hijab.

I'm surprised it got as far as it did to be honest.

sav1980

Is that not something that should have been discussed before contracts were signed? Personally I think uniform is uniform and should be the same for everyone. If you start to make exceptions for one then where does it end?

Shenshen

In fairness, she was working for the company and knew about the uniforms before she decided she now had to wear something contravening the dress code.

Her choice. I honestly don't see why Dunnes should be held accountable.

Also, did she walk out or was she fired? The articles seems to say both...

davet82

krudler wrote: »

She would have been given a copy of the policy on being hired, if she didnt like it then tough.

she converted to islam while working there, idk if she signed any contract with a dress code policy though

Fratton Fred

bluewolf wrote: »

If people want to wear them on their own time that's fine but the place has a uniforms policy, take it or leave it

It doesn't matter what their policy is, if their policy discriminates against people.

davet82

Shenshen wrote: »

Also, did she walk out or was she fired? The articles seems to say both...

it seems she walked/forced out is my understanding of it, i'm open to correction though

davet82

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It doesn't matter what their policy is, if their policy discriminates against people.

thats a good point too, i keep changing me mind on this topic

mconigol

Headscarf I have no problem with, what's the big deal? Sound's pretty backward on Dunnes part to me.

Shenshen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It doesn't matter what their policy is, if their policy discriminates against people.

How so?
People choose to work there, they choose to agree to the uniform policy. If they don't agree, they can find employment elsewhere.
The company can insist on uniforms, they are not a public body but a private company.

Fratton Fred

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It doesn't matter what their policy is, if their policy discriminates against people.

It insists on a uniform, that's not discrimination.
If this person chooses to wear a hijab of their own volition then it conflicts with the uniform.

Where To

I dunno, I have no problem with a Sikh wearing a turban so why should I have a problem with a Muslim wearing a hijab?

If it's not a security issue why shouldn't it be allowed?

Where To

Where To wrote: »

If it's not a security issue why shouldn't it be allowed?

That's the decision of the private company. You might as well ask "if jeans aren't a security issue why shouldn't they be allowed". The whole point is that they have a particular uniform.

Guy:Incognito

mconigol wrote: »

Headscarf I have no problem with, what's the big deal? Sound's pretty backward on Dunnes part to me.

What other religious clothing should be allowed? Or would you bring in a discriminatory policy of certain types of religious clothes are allowed but not others? What ones are acceptable? If the scientologists decide all their women should wear a 2 foot Godzilla chewing on some Japanese people on their heads, is that allowed? Or just religions that are more than 100 years old?

Shenshen

Where To wrote: »

I dunno, I have no problem with a Sikh wearing a turban so why should I have a problem with a Muslim wearing a hijab?

If it's not a security issue why shouldn't it be allowed?

I've got no problem with either, but I do acknowledge that a company has a right to impose dress code or uniform for their employees.

If the lady had worked at Stringfellows and had decided that she can now only swing round the pole fully covered head to toe, would Stringfellows have had to accept that and continue her employment under these new conditions?

davet82

Where To wrote: »

I dunno, I have no problem with a Sikh wearing a turban so why should I have a problem with a Muslim wearing a hijab?

If it's not a security issue why shouldn't it be allowed?

yeah i'd have to agree, i've decided on the let her wear the scarf if she wants to side, it makes no odds to me whats on somebodies head when i reach the til

Shenshen

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

This is partly the reason that immigration into Europe has failed - failure to integrate into that particular societies rules, beliefs etc

What, because masses of Lithuanians suddenly refuse to integrate and take up wearing head scarves?

GalwayGuy2

Eh, it's not really the same, but I wouldn't agree with anybody arguing to wear rosary beads during their job.

davet82

Shenshen wrote: »

I've got no problem with either, but I do acknowledge that a company has a right to impose dress code or uniform for their employees.

If the lady had worked at Stringfellows and had decided that she can now only swing round the pole fully covered head to toe, would Stringfellows have had to accept that and continue her employment under these new conditions?

stop making good points, i was decided 2 minutes ago :pac:

She chose to stay home and ultimately got fired for lack of attendance.

If the job required a standard uniform then she needs to wear a standard uniform. Putting your religion above your job is daft. When she refused to go to work im sure her religion didn't magically put food on the table and pay the bills for her.

Fratton Fred

Shenshen wrote: »

How so?
People choose to work there, they choose to agree to the uniform policy. If they don't agree, they can find employment elsewhere.
The company can insist on uniforms, they are not a public body but a private company.

If a uniform policy does not allow for headscarves, it is effectively discriminating against Muslim women. That is not acceptable.

If there is a fundamental reason why headwear cannot be worn then fair enough, but I can't think of any reason why working on a Dunnes checkout would mean someone cannot wear a piece of clothing that is a fundamental part of their faith.

Death and Taxes

davet82 wrote: »

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/irishsun/irishsunnews/4643144/Hijab-or-her-job.html



Should they have settled? Would it bother you if somebody was serving you with a hijab on?

I dont really have a strong opinion on it either way but it interests me what people think

Jesuz no, we cant have them forin musslim wimmins thinkin their culture is respected, where would it end!


Especially not when its ok that our politicans recite catholic prayers in our National Parliment each day it sits, or that our state tv and radio broadcast the catholic call to prayer every day, ffs they'll want secularization next!

Gyalist

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

This is partly the reason that immigration into Europe has failed - failure to integrate into that particular societies rules, beliefs etc

What has immigration into Europe got to do with it. It took me all of 0.17 seconds on Google to learn that the woman is Lithuanian.

Gurgle

bluewolf wrote: »

If people want to wear them on their own time that's fine but the place has a uniforms policy, take it or leave it

Its a Hijab, not a full Burka.
I have a rising feeling of apathy... oh never mind.

Guy:Incognito

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If a uniform policy does not allow for headscarves, it is effectively discriminating against Muslim women. That is not acceptable.

If there is a fundamental reason why headwear cannot be worn then fair enough, but I can't think of any reason why working on a Dunnes checkout would mean someone cannot wear a piece of clothing that is a fundamental part of their faith.

A burqa might not stop her working on a till either, should she be allowed wear one of those or s that discrimination too?

I doubt any of the lads working in Dunnes would be allowed wear a stupid looking baseball cap backwards in work, what about them?

Where To

bluewolf wrote: »

That's the decision of the private company. You might as well ask "if jeans aren't a security issue why shouldn't they be allowed". The whole point is that they have a particular uniform.

So I wonder how many Dunnes employees have been reprimanded for wearing a crucifix?

super_furry

bluewolf wrote: »

That's the decision of the private company. You might as well ask "if jeans aren't a security issue why shouldn't they be allowed". The whole point is that they have a particular uniform.

Don't know of any religion to requires it's adherents to wear jeans but if there was one, I bet it would be Mormonism.

Fratton Fred

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If a uniform policy does not allow for headscarves, it is effectively discriminating against Muslim women. That is not acceptable.

If there is a fundamental reason why headwear cannot be worn then fair enough, but I can't think of any reason why working on a Dunnes checkout would mean someone cannot wear a piece of clothing that is a fundamental part of their faith.

Plenty of muslim women don't see a need to wear a headscarf. It's their choice to wear it.

Where To wrote:

So I wonder how many Dunnes employees have been reprimanded for wearing a crucifix?

I understand from the posts that she was reprimanded for failing to show up at work (I can't click the OP link), because she wouldn't show up without the headscarf. See how many refuse to attend work for not being allowed to wear jewellery, I'm sure the outcome would be the same.

Korvanica

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Eh, it's not really the same, but I wouldn't agree with anybody arguing to wear rosary beads during their job.

Aren't they usually worn around the neck, under the uniform ? Not visible to the public ?

If I ever work in Dunnes ill be donning my colander on the first day. And I will fight for my right to wear my religious kitchen tool.

What's the point in uniforms if 1 person gets to wear something different ?

Fratton Fred

bluewolf wrote: »

It insists on a uniform, that's not discrimination.
If this person chooses to wear a hijab of their own volition then it conflicts with the uniform.

It's not her own volition though, it is a requirement of her faith.

A decent compromise would have been to allow her to wear a head scarf, but in the company's colours, or even provide her with a headcarf that was part of the uniform.

having a blanket ban on headwear means you are descriminating against Muslim women.

Guy:Incognito

Where To wrote: »

So I wonder how many Dunnes employees have been reprimanded for wearing a crucifix?

There probably hasn't been any fired for wearing lacey knickers either. If the uniform covers it, fire away.

Shenshen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If a uniform policy does not allow for headscarves, it is effectively discriminating against Muslim women. That is not acceptable.

If there is a fundamental reason why headwear cannot be worn then fair enough, but I can't think of any reason why working on a Dunnes checkout would mean someone cannot wear a piece of clothing that is a fundamental part of their faith.

Does there need to be a fundamental reason?

A person with tattoos applying for a job in a bank will be told to keep the tattoos covered as part of their dress code, is that discriminatory?
A person with piercings will be told to remove them during work hours when working for certain retailers or in hotels and restaurants. Is that discriminatory?
If you find that the cleavage on your uniform is too revealing, is that discriminatory?

If your religion stands does not allow you to work under certain conditions, seek alternative employment.

A company can enforce a dress code or uniform on their staff. If they don't want to wear it, they can either try and find a compromise with their employer, or they can work elsewhere. I don't see why the employer should be forced to abandon their policy just because some staff members have a problem with it?

babaracus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If a uniform policy does not allow for headscarves, it is effectively discriminating against Muslim women. That is not acceptable.

If people didn't feel the need to wear certain items of clothing due to their belief in a load of old nonsense then it would discriminate against nobody. They are effectively discriminating against themselves and too bad about them. A uniform is in no way discriminatory, in fact it is the opposite as everybody is required to appear the same regardless of religion, wealth etc.

Next you will have Catholics wanting to wear large crucifixes, Sikhs with swords and Jedi warriors in full Darth Vader outfits.

There should be no allowance made for any religion in any job. Your personal religious beliefs should be kept personal and practiced in your own time.

Fratton Fred

Shenshen wrote: »

I've got no problem with either, but I do acknowledge that a company has a right to impose dress code or uniform for their employees.

If the lady had worked at Stringfellows and had decided that she can now only swing round the pole fully covered head to toe, would Stringfellows have had to accept that and continue her employment under these new conditions?

A poll dancer taking her clothes off is a fundamental part of their job and wearing clothing would affect their ability to do that.

Wearing a scarf does not affect your ability to stack shelves or work on a check out in any way.

Fratton Fred

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's not her own volition though

Are you suggesting she's being forced against her will to wear one? That she doesn't choose it and how to practise her faith, herself?

And if that's the case, then she should apply for a job without a uniform policy.

http://thoseheadcoverings.blogspot.ie/2012/07/islamic-scholar-headscarves-not-required.html
Purely choice, depending on what school of thought you choose to follow.

A decent compromise would have been to allow her to wear a head scarf, but in the company's colours, or even provide her with a headcarf that was part of the uniform.

Sure, that does sound like a compromise.
Still their choice though.

Shenshen

Where To wrote: »

So I wonder how many Dunnes employees have been reprimanded for wearing a crucifix?

I don't know the uniform rules, but if jewellery is allowed I don't see why they should be reprimanded for wearing a crucifix?
This isn't about religion, it's about the employer's right to enforce a uniform dress code.

Fratton Fred

Shenshen wrote: »

Does there need to be a fundamental reason?

A person with tattoos applying for a job in a bank will be told to keep the tattoos covered as part of their dress code, is that discriminatory?
A person with piercings will be told to remove them during work hours when working for certain retailers or in hotels and restaurants. Is that discriminatory?
If you find that the cleavage on your uniform is too revealing, is that discriminatory?

If your religion stands does not allow you to work under certain conditions, seek alternative employment.

A company can enforce a dress code or uniform on their staff. If they don't want to wear it, they can either try and find a compromise with their employer, or they can work elsewhere. I don't see why the employer should be forced to abandon their policy just because some staff members have a problem with it?

so next time a company wants to close a factory, all they have to do is insist that all their employees come to work naked and when they leave that is their choice and therefore no redundancy is payable.

nice one.

Guy:Incognito

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A decent compromise would have been to allow her to wear a head scarf, but in the company's colours, or even provide her with a headcarf that was part of the uniform.
.

Should they compromise for young lads that want to wear baseball caps too?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so next time a company wants to close a factory, all they have to do is insist that all their employees come to work naked and when they leave that is their choice and therefore no redundancy is payable.

nice one.

Dunnes didn't change anything, the employee did. In violation of a rule that was in place when she accepted the job.

smash

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Wearing a scarf does not affect your ability to stack shelves or work on a check out in any way.

Either does painting your face like a member of KISS but you wouldn't be allowed do it in work.

MagicMarker

Fratton Fred wrote: »

having a blanket ban on headwear means you are descriminating against Muslim women.

Having a blanket ban on head-wear means you're discriminating against anyone who's ever worn a hat, ever.

Korvanica

Fratton Fred wrote: »

having a blanket ban on headwear means you are descriminating against Muslim women.

and Pastafarians !

Shenshen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A poll dancer taking her clothes off is a fundamental part of their job and wearing clothing would affect their ability to do that.

Wearing a scarf does not affect your ability to stack shelves or work on a check out in any way.

And wearing jeans would not affect my capability to work on a computer.
Nevertheless, the company has a dress code policy, and I have to comply if I want to work here.

Where To

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

There probably hasn't been any fired for wearing lacey knickers either. If the uniform covers it, fire away.

Ah but if it was a male employee wearing lacy knickers?

Ban them all or ban none.

davet82

smash wrote: »

Either does painting your face like a member of KISS but you wouldn't be allowed do it in work.

tell that to the Māori

Princess Peach

Deleted User wrote: »

She chose to stay home and ultimately got fired for lack of attendance.

If the job required a standard uniform then she needs to wear a standard uniform. Putting your religion above your job is daft. When she refused to go to work im sure her religion didn't magically put food on the table and pay the bills for her.

Religion is held at different levels of importance by everyone though. I certainly couldn't work for a company that discriminated against my beliefs and customs. May seem daft to you but may be the right choice for a devout person.

I think Dunnes needs to update their uniform policy to allow for Hijabs. They can specify the colour and that the face should be showing but I do see their current policy as discrimination. If all other employees can wear their hair however they want, shouldn't a woman have the option to cover hers?

babaracus

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Should they compromise for young lads that want to wear baseball caps too?

They should. We at least have evidence that Babe Ruth existed.

Princess Peach

Princess Peach wrote: »

Religion is held at different levels of importance by everyone though. I certainly couldn't work for a company that discriminated against my beliefs and customs. May seem daft to you but may be the right choice for a devout person.

Great! Don't work for them then.

I think Dunnes needs to update their uniform policy to allow for Hijabs. They can specify the colour and that the face should be showing but I do see their current policy as discrimination. If all other employees can wear their hair however they want, shouldn't a woman have the option to cover hers?

Are there many workers who would be allowed to come in with bright pink mohawks? Are there rules about men having a proper trimmed beard or clean shaven only and nothing like random stubble? Maybe the deli workers have to wear particular standard hair nets?

Shenshen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so next time a company wants to close a factory, all they have to do is insist that all their employees come to work naked and when they leave that is their choice and therefore no redundancy is payable.

nice one.

Well, if all of their staff signed up for jobs that specifically stated they had to be naked for them, and then refused to work naked, yes.

It's not like Dunnes only introduced their uniform 2 days ago and were trying to force staff to wear it.
In the case of my company, dress code is mentioned in my contract, and I'm sure it was mentioned in hers as well when she signed it.

Guy:Incognito

Princess Peach wrote: »

Religion is held at different levels of importance by everyone though. I certainly couldn't work for a company that discriminated against my beliefs and customs. May seem daft to you but may be the right choice for a devout person.

I think Dunnes needs to update their uniform policy to allow for Hijabs. They can specify the colour and that the face should be showing but I do see their current policy as discrimination. If all other employees can wear their hair however they want, shouldn't a woman have the option to cover hers?

So now they should discriminate against non organised religions? Are my beliefs less valid than yours because mine are not based on an organised religion? Surely if my beliefs about how I should live my life revolve around wearing a tracksuit all the time then that's perfectly valid, no?

As for the first part, that's your right to choose not to work for such a company. This woman did decide to work for them but then wanted the rules changed to suit her.