Dunnes settle with woman over wearing a Hijab

Fratton Fred

bluewolf wrote: »

It insists on a uniform, that's not discrimination.
If this person chooses to wear a hijab of their own volition then it conflicts with the uniform.

It's not her own volition though, it is a requirement of her faith.

A decent compromise would have been to allow her to wear a head scarf, but in the company's colours, or even provide her with a headcarf that was part of the uniform.

having a blanket ban on headwear means you are descriminating against Muslim women.

Guy:Incognito

Where To wrote: »

So I wonder how many Dunnes employees have been reprimanded for wearing a crucifix?

There probably hasn't been any fired for wearing lacey knickers either. If the uniform covers it, fire away.

Shenshen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If a uniform policy does not allow for headscarves, it is effectively discriminating against Muslim women. That is not acceptable.

If there is a fundamental reason why headwear cannot be worn then fair enough, but I can't think of any reason why working on a Dunnes checkout would mean someone cannot wear a piece of clothing that is a fundamental part of their faith.

Does there need to be a fundamental reason?

A person with tattoos applying for a job in a bank will be told to keep the tattoos covered as part of their dress code, is that discriminatory?
A person with piercings will be told to remove them during work hours when working for certain retailers or in hotels and restaurants. Is that discriminatory?
If you find that the cleavage on your uniform is too revealing, is that discriminatory?

If your religion stands does not allow you to work under certain conditions, seek alternative employment.

A company can enforce a dress code or uniform on their staff. If they don't want to wear it, they can either try and find a compromise with their employer, or they can work elsewhere. I don't see why the employer should be forced to abandon their policy just because some staff members have a problem with it?

babaracus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If a uniform policy does not allow for headscarves, it is effectively discriminating against Muslim women. That is not acceptable.

If people didn't feel the need to wear certain items of clothing due to their belief in a load of old nonsense then it would discriminate against nobody. They are effectively discriminating against themselves and too bad about them. A uniform is in no way discriminatory, in fact it is the opposite as everybody is required to appear the same regardless of religion, wealth etc.

Next you will have Catholics wanting to wear large crucifixes, Sikhs with swords and Jedi warriors in full Darth Vader outfits.

There should be no allowance made for any religion in any job. Your personal religious beliefs should be kept personal and practiced in your own time.

Fratton Fred

Shenshen wrote: »

I've got no problem with either, but I do acknowledge that a company has a right to impose dress code or uniform for their employees.

If the lady had worked at Stringfellows and had decided that she can now only swing round the pole fully covered head to toe, would Stringfellows have had to accept that and continue her employment under these new conditions?

A poll dancer taking her clothes off is a fundamental part of their job and wearing clothing would affect their ability to do that.

Wearing a scarf does not affect your ability to stack shelves or work on a check out in any way.

coffee_cake

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's not her own volition though

Are you suggesting she's being forced against her will to wear one? That she doesn't choose it and how to practise her faith, herself?

And if that's the case, then she should apply for a job without a uniform policy.

http://thoseheadcoverings.blogspot.ie/2012/07/islamic-scholar-headscarves-not-required.html
Purely choice, depending on what school of thought you choose to follow.

A decent compromise would have been to allow her to wear a head scarf, but in the company's colours, or even provide her with a headcarf that was part of the uniform.

Sure, that does sound like a compromise.
Still their choice though.

Shenshen

Where To wrote: »

So I wonder how many Dunnes employees have been reprimanded for wearing a crucifix?

I don't know the uniform rules, but if jewellery is allowed I don't see why they should be reprimanded for wearing a crucifix?
This isn't about religion, it's about the employer's right to enforce a uniform dress code.

Fratton Fred

Shenshen wrote: »

Does there need to be a fundamental reason?

A person with tattoos applying for a job in a bank will be told to keep the tattoos covered as part of their dress code, is that discriminatory?
A person with piercings will be told to remove them during work hours when working for certain retailers or in hotels and restaurants. Is that discriminatory?
If you find that the cleavage on your uniform is too revealing, is that discriminatory?

If your religion stands does not allow you to work under certain conditions, seek alternative employment.

A company can enforce a dress code or uniform on their staff. If they don't want to wear it, they can either try and find a compromise with their employer, or they can work elsewhere. I don't see why the employer should be forced to abandon their policy just because some staff members have a problem with it?

so next time a company wants to close a factory, all they have to do is insist that all their employees come to work naked and when they leave that is their choice and therefore no redundancy is payable.

nice one.

Guy:Incognito

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A decent compromise would have been to allow her to wear a head scarf, but in the company's colours, or even provide her with a headcarf that was part of the uniform.
.

Should they compromise for young lads that want to wear baseball caps too?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so next time a company wants to close a factory, all they have to do is insist that all their employees come to work naked and when they leave that is their choice and therefore no redundancy is payable.

nice one.

Dunnes didn't change anything, the employee did. In violation of a rule that was in place when she accepted the job.

smash

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Wearing a scarf does not affect your ability to stack shelves or work on a check out in any way.

Either does painting your face like a member of KISS but you wouldn't be allowed do it in work.

MagicMarker

Fratton Fred wrote: »

having a blanket ban on headwear means you are descriminating against Muslim women.

Having a blanket ban on head-wear means you're discriminating against anyone who's ever worn a hat, ever.

Korvanica

Fratton Fred wrote: »

having a blanket ban on headwear means you are descriminating against Muslim women.

and Pastafarians !

Shenshen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A poll dancer taking her clothes off is a fundamental part of their job and wearing clothing would affect their ability to do that.

Wearing a scarf does not affect your ability to stack shelves or work on a check out in any way.

And wearing jeans would not affect my capability to work on a computer.
Nevertheless, the company has a dress code policy, and I have to comply if I want to work here.

Where To

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

There probably hasn't been any fired for wearing lacey knickers either. If the uniform covers it, fire away.

Ah but if it was a male employee wearing lacy knickers?

Ban them all or ban none.

davet82

smash wrote: »

Either does painting your face like a member of KISS but you wouldn't be allowed do it in work.

tell that to the Māori

Princess Peach

Deleted User wrote: »

She chose to stay home and ultimately got fired for lack of attendance.

If the job required a standard uniform then she needs to wear a standard uniform. Putting your religion above your job is daft. When she refused to go to work im sure her religion didn't magically put food on the table and pay the bills for her.

Religion is held at different levels of importance by everyone though. I certainly couldn't work for a company that discriminated against my beliefs and customs. May seem daft to you but may be the right choice for a devout person.

I think Dunnes needs to update their uniform policy to allow for Hijabs. They can specify the colour and that the face should be showing but I do see their current policy as discrimination. If all other employees can wear their hair however they want, shouldn't a woman have the option to cover hers?

babaracus

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Should they compromise for young lads that want to wear baseball caps too?

They should. We at least have evidence that Babe Ruth existed.

coffee_cake

Princess Peach wrote: »

Religion is held at different levels of importance by everyone though. I certainly couldn't work for a company that discriminated against my beliefs and customs. May seem daft to you but may be the right choice for a devout person.

Great! Don't work for them then.

I think Dunnes needs to update their uniform policy to allow for Hijabs. They can specify the colour and that the face should be showing but I do see their current policy as discrimination. If all other employees can wear their hair however they want, shouldn't a woman have the option to cover hers?

Are there many workers who would be allowed to come in with bright pink mohawks? Are there rules about men having a proper trimmed beard or clean shaven only and nothing like random stubble? Maybe the deli workers have to wear particular standard hair nets?

Shenshen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so next time a company wants to close a factory, all they have to do is insist that all their employees come to work naked and when they leave that is their choice and therefore no redundancy is payable.

nice one.

Well, if all of their staff signed up for jobs that specifically stated they had to be naked for them, and then refused to work naked, yes.

It's not like Dunnes only introduced their uniform 2 days ago and were trying to force staff to wear it.
In the case of my company, dress code is mentioned in my contract, and I'm sure it was mentioned in hers as well when she signed it.

Guy:Incognito

Princess Peach wrote: »

Religion is held at different levels of importance by everyone though. I certainly couldn't work for a company that discriminated against my beliefs and customs. May seem daft to you but may be the right choice for a devout person.

I think Dunnes needs to update their uniform policy to allow for Hijabs. They can specify the colour and that the face should be showing but I do see their current policy as discrimination. If all other employees can wear their hair however they want, shouldn't a woman have the option to cover hers?

So now they should discriminate against non organised religions? Are my beliefs less valid than yours because mine are not based on an organised religion? Surely if my beliefs about how I should live my life revolve around wearing a tracksuit all the time then that's perfectly valid, no?

As for the first part, that's your right to choose not to work for such a company. This woman did decide to work for them but then wanted the rules changed to suit her.

smash

Princess Peach wrote: »

Religion is held at different levels of importance by everyone though. I certainly couldn't work for a company that discriminated against my beliefs and customs. May seem daft to you but may be the right choice for a devout person.

But they're your beliefs. Why should the company cater for them?

Guy:Incognito

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm sure it was mentioned in hers as well when she signed it.

Pah, no one read contracts.:)

Princess Peach

smash wrote: »

But they're your beliefs. Why should the company cater for them?

Respect for differences?

Shenshen

Princess Peach wrote: »

Religion is held at different levels of importance by everyone though. I certainly couldn't work for a company that discriminated against my beliefs and customs. May seem daft to you but may be the right choice for a devout person.

I think Dunnes needs to update their uniform policy to allow for Hijabs. They can specify the colour and that the face should be showing but I do see their current policy as discrimination. If all other employees can wear their hair however they want, shouldn't a woman have the option to cover hers?

Not sure they can... I remember a male friend telling me that Dunnes told him during an interview that if he came to work for them, he would have to cut his hair (it's just over shoulder-length).

Kenny Logins

Princess Peach wrote: »

Religion is held at different levels of importance by everyone though. I certainly couldn't work for a company that discriminated against my beliefs and customs. May seem daft to you but may be the right choice for a devout person.

I think Dunnes needs to update their uniform policy to allow for Hijabs. They can specify the colour and that the face should be showing but I do see their current policy as discrimination. If all other employees can wear their hair however they want, shouldn't a woman have the option to cover hers?

Maybe the religion needs to update to allow women to choose whether to wear a hijab or not?

As a far as I see it the Dunnes' uniform policy applies to everybody equally, it does not make exceptions for race or religion. Sounds fair to me..

smash

Princess Peach wrote: »

Respect for differences?

So should toy shops stop selling teenage mutant ninja turtles because a staff member disagrees with genetic modification?

MagicMarker

Princess Peach wrote: »

Respect for differences?

So do you think this particular Dunnes should only sell Halal meat to respect this woman's beliefs?

Fratton Fred

babaracus wrote: »

If people didn't feel the need to wear certain items of clothing due to their belief in a load of old nonsense then it would discriminate against nobody. They are effectively discriminating against themselves and too bad about them. A uniform is in no way discriminatory, in fact it is the opposite as everybody is required to appear the same regardless of religion, wealth etc.

Next you will have Catholics wanting to wear large crucifixes, Sikhs with swords and Jedi warriors in full Darth Vader outfits.

There should be no allowance made for any religion in any job. Your personal religious beliefs should be kept personal and practiced in your own time.

yeah, wait til you're at the pearly gates and yelling discrimination at St Peter because he won't let atheists in

bluewolf wrote: »

Are you suggesting she's being forced against her will to wear one? That she doesn't choose it and how to practise her faith, herself?

And if that's the case, then she should apply for a job without a uniform policy.

http://thoseheadcoverings.blogspot.ie/2012/07/islamic-scholar-headscarves-not-required.html
Purely choice, depending on what school of thought you choose to follow.

Sure, that does sound like a compromise.
Still their choice though.

It doesn't matter if it's their choice or not. Preventing women from wearing headscarves effectively (or indirectly as the law would see it) discriminates against a certain section of society.

There is no reason, other than company policy, why someone should not wear a headscarf at a check out.

davet82

smash wrote: »

But they're your beliefs. Why should the company cater for them?

i can agree maybe from a uniform angle but if its beliefs would there then not be a problem with lets say with ash wednesday or Bindis (indian dots) or maybe there is idk

Shenshen

Princess Peach wrote: »

Respect for differences?

If you work for a company with a uniform for dress code, you might expect a bit much there.