Panorama BBC1 - Gambling Nation

Grayson

Ads by Google wrote: »

I got into a bit of debt because of gambling when I was in university but I wasn't addicted.. I was just a retard. Nice lesson early on though in the dangers of loans and gambling. Two years shoving away at least 500euro a month just to break even.,

Now, I'd happily throw down a few hundred if I wanted or sometimes play a quick rocks papers scissors on a night out for 20quid but it's cause I know it's just for the laugh.. Gambling is fun until you act stupid.

Dude. That sounds like an addiction. A managed addiction, but still an addiction.

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

Dude. That sounds like an addiction. A managed addiction, but still an addiction.

A managed addiction? Wouldn't that apply to alot of normal people? Probably gambled a bit once or twice a month for the last year.. 20euro is hardly crazy. I do like it but I'm not being stupid.. It helps massively not having casinos near me and I don't have a credit card.

Handsome Bob

steve9859 wrote: »

£300,000!! bloody hell! how can you lose that much on-line and not stop!

People lose, way more than they originally intended. Then they start chasing their money, instead of €5 stakes it's €10, then €20, then €50 etc etc....all for the sake of trying to get back what they lost instead of cutting their losses.

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

I've seen people escalate to that point very quickly though. It has always struck me that gamblers get very little out of their addiction . At least drug addicts, even heroin addicts, have the drug to enjoy. I understand that a lot of gamblers do it sensibly, but for those that dont, i cant think of a worse habit.

Some gambling addicts will tell you it's about the rush of just putting on the bet. The concept of losing doesn't actually enter their mind until after the match/game/race is over and they have lost their bollocks.

summerskin wrote: »

The staff there are enablers, no better than drug dealers.

No better than drug dealers? C'mon now. I worked in a bookies and you always want to say to someone "Are you sure you want to put that much on because we both know you can't afford it." Or because they're drunk and betting stakes that they usually don't. But you can't refuse them, you are obligated to serve them. If you don't, you can wave goodbye to your perfectly legitimate job.

But I agree with what you said about a big win making people feel like they're invincible because for some people, that's the worst thing that can happen. People become confident or arrogant based on poor logic and think they can't lose. In the long run, not only will they give their big win back to the bookies, they'll give them more than that.

I've worked with drug and alcohol addicts, but for me, a gambling addiction is right up there with them in terms of the devastation it can cause.

Lapin

summerskin wrote: »

For a gambling addict, gambling isn't about winning, it's about escaping................................................


Next time you go to the bookies take a look at the people in there, there will be 20 or so people, all virtually ignoring each other as they chase the next big win. It's a lonely place. The staff there are enablers, no better than drug dealers. They get paid an annual bonus based upon the shop takings, so encourage people to carry on even when they have lost almost everything. Disgusting.

And the next time you have a winner at the bookies, remember it's not the bookies money you are taking home with you, it's money handed over by some fool earlier, who may now have a family that they can't afford to feed. It's dirty money.


If anyone feels they have a gambling problem, ask yourself these questions:

1. Did you ever lose time from work or school due to gambling?
........................................................................................
20. Have you ever considered self-destruction or suicide as a result of your gambling?


If you say yes to a few of them, contact Gamblers Anonymous. You won't regret it. PM me if you have any questions, as it's not always something you want to talk about on a public forum.

Thats an excellent post summerskin and evidently written by someone who has first hand experience of the unfortunate aspects of gambling.

It is admirable that you have invited people to pm you if they feel they have a problem. And if this thread encourages even one person to question a weakness they might have, or address a problem they know they have, then I'm glad it served a useful purpose.

However I cannot accept your points highlighted above.
The betting industry in Ireland is heavily regulated and high street betting chains comply with the rules in what is an entirely legal activity.
Comparing those who work in the industry to drug dealers is grossly unfair. The staff in betting shops are fully entitled to their jobs and are doing nothing illegal.

Blaming them for an addiction to gambling is like blaming the local newsagent for giving you bronchitis because he sold you cigarettes or blaming the barman in your local pub because you wrapped the car around a lamp post on the way home from a heavy night out.

Gambling, like smoking and the sale of alcohol is only available to over 18s for a reason. Its the age society accepts as the time we mature into adulthood and begin to take responsibility for our own actions.

To describe a winning bet at the bookies as 'dirty money' takes the good out of winning for the regular punter who can enjoy having a flutter. If I have a winner I'm not going to think about the unfed family someone who cannot control their gambling.

I set aside a small proportion of my weekly income to have a few bets. Some weeks I'm up, some weeks I break even and some weeks I'm down. And of course there are weeks when I win nothing at all from any of the bets I place. But win lose or draw, I never go beyond the stake money I had to begin with. In the long run the bookies will make their profits, but in the short term, I have my bit of fun from week to week and I'm entitled to do so without a guilty conscience. I pay for it.

Its possible to make a moral argument against any amount of perfectly legal goods and services available to consumers. The shelves of any supermarket are full of everyday items in which many winners and losers were involved the production. But I'm not going to stop typing on a keyboard simpliy because it was manufactured by cheap labour in china anymore than I'm going to stop buying the chance of winning a few bob every week simply because others cannot handle their addiction.

While I sympathise with them, I believe they are vastly outnumbered by moderate punters like myself who can afford to take their losses. And as long as the bookies are making their profits, I'll never refer to my winnings when I have them as 'dirty money'.

I pay to win so I deserve my wins when I get them.

Does anyone know how I can watch this now?

oppenheimer1

S. De Sousa wrote: »

People lose, way more than they originally intended. Then they start chasing their money, instead of €5 stakes it's €10, then €20, then €50 etc etc....all for the sake of trying to get back what they lost instead of cutting their losses.



Some gambling addicts will tell you it's about the rush of just putting on the bet. The concept of losing doesn't actually enter their mind until after the match/game/race is over and they have lost their bollocks.



No better than drug dealers? C'mon now. I worked in a bookies and you always want to say to someone "Are you sure you want to put that much on because we both know you can't afford it." Or because they're drunk and betting stakes that they usually don't. But you can't refuse them, you are obligated to serve them. If you don't, you can wave goodbye to your perfectly legitimate job.

But I agree with what you said about a big win making people feel like they're invincible because for some people, that's the worst thing that can happen. People become confident or arrogant based on poor logic and think they can't lose. In the long run, not only will they give their big win back to the bookies, they'll give them more than that.

I've worked with drug and alcohol addicts, but for me, a gambling addiction is right up there with them in terms of the devastation it can cause.

Its only when people are doing morally repugnant things do they justify it by saying its perfectly legal or perfectly legitimate.

Ottway

Deleted User wrote: »

Does anyone know how I can watch this now?

You need a VPN that allows you to watch UK/USA websites.

Tunnelbear give you a free 500MB of usage which should cover you for the show (they give another free 1GB if you Tweet their name):

http://www.tunnelbear.com/

BlackVPN are another, but no free usage with them. Thread here on Boards with many reviews, some good, some bad:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056066624

Here's the Panorama episode on the BBC iPlayer anyway:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01nm27r/Panorama_Gambling_Nation/

Me_Grapes

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Its only when people are doing morally repugnant things do they justify it by saying its perfectly legal or perfectly legitimate.

It's gainful employment at the end of the day, Is it not better that there are folk being employed in these betting shops, where the vast majority of punters bet for the fun of it, than a few thousand extra people on the dole?

It's a sad fact of life that jobs aren't growing on trees. I'd say most people who work in bookies didn't choose to work there, but just took it because they coud get their hands on it at the time. Betting shop staff have families to feed as well.

summerskin1 wrote: »

The staff there are enablers, no better than drug dealers. They get paid an annual bonus based upon the shop takings,so encourage people to carry on even when they have lost almost everything. Disgusting.

Comparing someone who earns close to minimum wage, at a job where he/she faces regular abuse from certain types of punters, to drug dealing scum is what I'd call disgusting.

Handsome Bob

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Its only when people are doing morally repugnant things do they justify it by saying its perfectly legal or perfectly legitimate.

Do go on, I'd be interested to hear why you think it's a morally repugnant profession.

aman121

Hello, having read with interest, and dismay I hope a contribution from Britain, home of Panorama and more importantly home of the scourge of FOBT, FIXED ODDS BETTING TERMINALS. I hope some folk might read this and digest the information and the implications.

I am glad that people in Ireland are discussing this. Ireland needs to be aware of this issue, because Paddy Power and others want to bring FOBT to Ireland. They are insanely addictive and profitable.

However, having read through this thread, there are some unfortunate, ill judged comments. I really don't think some people are "getting it" or are displaying a lack of sympathy, especially those criticising unfortunates sucked into this sort of gambling. HOWEVER, if you have not seen FOBT or experienced them, you will NEVER "get it".

You absolutely HAVE TO SEE this totally insane sh1t and what it is doing on the high streets of Britain, but in the first instance, and the greater societal implications and effects, to truly understand it.

Concerned citizens, should be lobbying TDs, MPs, the media, social organisations, highlighting this Panorama programme. Keeping the information flow up about the misery and social effects in the UK. Because the Gambling Lobby are wealthy, powerful and just as in the UK, the politiciansthey will be attempting to influence and seduce into changing laws in their favour are people totally removed from the daily realities, environment, mindset, needs, aspirations and challenges of the "working class" and worse the "non-working class" and "petty criminality class".

The lawmakers and legislators are insulated from the world and the people in which FOBT are placed. The people who will legalise these things are people who have not experienced the world they come from and the world they will create.

And it's not just the Gambling Industry, it is the knock on effects of FOBT have that has created a SCOURGE in British Society, with knock on effects of the utter explosion of 21st Century pawnbroking / 4000% interest moneylending like Cash Converters, Wonga, Payday Loans and so on, nevermind the crime. Where there are FOBTs, there are these sick moneylenders.

The British public were betrayed by the liebour government. If you have never played a FOBT on or seen one, I am afraid you would simply not understand. The sheer power of these things, to lure, attract, addict and destroy lives, within the bookmakers shop, and the misery they infect the high street and society with is not understood by those who have not seen.

On a basic level, FOBT are an electronic touch screen machine which offer dozens of games such as Roulette, Blackjack, Poker, Bagatelle and very basics simplistic variants guessing games such as "High Or Low" or "Red Or Black" or "Ball Under The Cups". You can load these machines with hundreds in £20s and £50s into them. No cash ? Don't worry. You can also go to the counter and load say hundreds directly from your bank account or Credit Card onto them. The "Credit Meter" will allow a playing balance in the thousands. I have seen players with balances of over £2000 playing at £100 per game, losing £600 or £700 in moments. It's sickening to see from the corner of your eye, but it is rubbernecking like a grisly car accident.

You can play a stake of up to £100 per push of the button. In the time you have read that sentence you could have lost £100. And again. On games with a stake of up to 100, you can play 3 times in a minute. In a minute, you could lose £300. In five minute you could lose £1,500. I have seen players with balances of over £2000 playing at £100 per game, losing £600 or £700 in moments. It's sickening to see from the corner of your eye, but it is rubbernecking like a grisly car accident.

Of course, you could lose £1000's on a horse race in five minutes. BUT THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. Other than winning or losing on a sports event, the presentation, the experience, the psychological dramas are completely random.

Just like the supposed reality of Big Brother, X Factor, I'm A Celebrity is carefully scripted and edited from dozens of camera angles and thousands of minutes of footage to a "Good TV" experience, with it's cliff hangers, jaw dropping moments, "surprises" and "shocks", so FOBTs games are similarly DESIGNED to provide "Good" (I use the word sarcastically) "Gambling" experience.

The entire thing is designed by very clever, skilled, well educated people; Not just one person, but teams; of Graduates, PHDs, marketeers, advertisers, designers, PSYCOLOGISTS, staticians, composers, sound designers, designers, visual effect designers, behavioural experts. A team of well educated well paid experts. The machines are designed to be a seductive audio visual sensory, psychological experience.

It is NOT the same as betting on a sports event with all it's randomness. In football, the "near miss" of a ball hitting the crossbar or post is a totally random combination of Wayne Rooney's hearing, vision, balance, reach, the wind, the rain. On FOBT machines, the "near miss" of a losing event is a pre-programmed event designed by psychologists and animators. Despite the loss being a loss, the experience is designed to make the player "feel" they may have lost by a hairs width, the drama, the instant highs and lows, the sense of winning only for the roulette ball to bump into the VERY next hole, to so encourage them to try again. Imagine a soccer game where Rooney hits the posts TEN times for each goal he scores. It's not real life.

The machines are PLAYED by people not as well educated as their designers. People at the bottom of society. People who need to stretch that £20 into £25 to pay a bill or a grocery.

Each High Street bookmaker is allowed to have 4 machines. They are phenomenally profitable, so, there are now high streets in Britain where there can be 6 or 8 bookmakers, and of these even 2 or 3 branches of the SAME CHAIN, doors away from each other or on opposite sides of the road

The "industry" are lobbying the government to change the law to increase machines in each bookmakers to 8 machines per "Shop". However, in the meantime, Labrokes have been turning branches from No1 High Street into No1A High Street and No1B High Street, by installing glass partitions, or plasterboard walls, and seperate doors. Now, technically TWO shops, they have 8 machines in the same floorspace. See for yourself at http://shops.ladbrokes.com/en/shop-locator, - put in LU1 2AT. Ladbrokes claim to have a branch at No87 and another one at No89. They have google streetview. Its the same f**king shop with ONE f**king front door. And it's not the only one.

Small chains of "Bookmakers" have sprung up. Except, they have the four machines, but no copies of the sporting papers. It's ALL about getting those 4 machines.

Bookmakers Shops in the UK open as early 7.30 AM, most at 8.00 AM, and close at 10 PM. On Sundays, they close at 10 PM. Please read that again. ! We are not talking about the odd shop like "early pubs". We are talking thousands of bookmakers opening on suburban high streets by 8 AM, an hour before the rest of the high street. Sports events don't take place till the afternoon.

What is happening is that people are losing a weeks wages before they even get to their desk on a Monday morning !

OF the 9000 bookmakers shops in the UK, lets have a look at Paddy Power, which would pose the biggest threat to Ireland were they to get FOBT. They were created were through a merger / buy out of existing Irish chains in 1998. In 2001 FOBT were introduced in the UK. Coincidentally, Paddy Power entered the UK in 2001/2002 with 1 shop. In 2005 Paddy Power had 150 Irish shops and 45 UK shops. In 2010 they had 209 Irish shops and 139 UK shops. At this time, in their own publicity states "almost two thirds of Paddy Power’s profits were generated outside of Ireland" ! As of 2012 they have 170+ UK shops and they are planning for 30 to 40 new openings per year. England has 50 cities. Paddy Power have NO SHOPS in numerous cities, for example Leeds, the UK's 3rd biggest city. But in the cities they have already reached, they will have up to 3 or even 4 branches in the "grittiest" most deprived areas, for example both Croydon and Southall have 3 branches of Paddy Power, even within sight of each other. Its no surprise that in Scotland Paddy Power have 6 branches in Glasgow, but none in Edinburgh. They are not in Wales yet.

There are up to 9,000 high street bookmakers in the UK. In the combined 4,500 branches of Ladbrokes and William Hills, a total of £ 12,500,000,000 was wagered in their machines in the first 6 months of 2012. On that basis, across the industry, in the UK this year, it is reasonable to estimate that 50,000,000,000, that's 50 BILLION will be wagered on these machines in the UK in 2012.

FOBT have been described as THE CRACK COCAINE OF GAMBLING. Why are they dangerous ? It is a fact, that the most dangerous forms of gambling are the ones which have the least amount of time between stake and result. It gives players less time to take a deep breath and make decisions. That is why Lotto scratchcards are far more dangerous than Lotto Weekly draw tickets. A pause gives you time to think. FOBT are relentless. Once you have made one "bet", be it Roulette or whatever, there is a REPEAT button, which means there is no going through the process of picking numbers again. Just slam REPEAT and go again. Losing £100 in 20 seconds is enough to make even the brightest person lose track of their thought patterns and make illogical decisions.

If you saw the 2011 riots on TV, you may have noticed that as well as JD Sports and Carphone Warehouse being major victims, a feature was that despite having absolutely nothing to loot, bookmakers were targeted and destroyed. FOBT are a cancer.

Does any of that make sense ? This is not about Gambling. Gambling as you might know it in Irish bookmakers is far removed from the FOBT experience. People who have never experienced the world of FOBT who are making broad generalisations about gamblers or making suggestions of how they would act, simply cannot visualise or understand.

It's a whole different ball game. It's almost psychological baiting of UK society's less bright and vunerable.

http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/gambling-act-was-a-mistake-confesses-senior-labour-politician

BE VIGILANT. KEEP THEM OUT OF IRELAND !

melekalikimaka

feel a degree of pity for anyone who gambles for more than a novelty bet occasionally... serious amount of cop on missing on anyone who willingly parts with money on a bet they statistically are likely to lose, I would include lotto in that