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Waterford Airport.

17071737576

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,250 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    hahaha really, please explain so?

    please explain to us how airliners are gonna line up, if works are done?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,196 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The extended runway would not be sufficient for freight operators using A300s, 767s etc so no, that isn't going to happen. Let alone the issues that all the freight operators logistics facilities are in Dublin, not Waterford.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,250 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    surely some element of freight would be possible with such works?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,196 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Not enough to make any sense whatsoever.

    To replace Dublin as the main air freight hub would require being able to take all the potential airframes, not patchy bits here and there.

    You don't understand how the industry works if you think that a little bit of the traffic could move.

    Note that there's next to no freight cargo in Shannon with its giant airfield, dual carriageway to a motorway, etc etc. Most of what it does handle is belly cargo, in passenger aircraft.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,250 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    im not talking about replacing dublin at all, just creating a new freight hub, in the south of the country, for the south of the country, i.e. expanding the countries overall freight industry into the south, attempting to replace dublin would be a ridiculous idea, as a significant proportion of the freight is for the dublin region itself.

    but great info there, thank you, so that idea could also be a bust…

    jesus, this doesnt look great at all, only way airlines will rock up is with significant subsidisation, and whats the chances of that!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,196 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    A new freight hub would have to be able to take widebody freight aircraft. Up to 747 size to be taken seriously, albeit these are exceptionally rare visitors now.

    If there was a market for a non-Dublin hub, it'd be Shannon.

    Waterfords only hope for sustained passenger traffic is that having the terminal and airfield operating decent hours for someone like Ryanair doing Luton with huge incentives is that it makes it more practical for Loganair, Emerald, Eastern or similar to come in with UK regional cities; and that Ryanair will add some bucket and spade routes without needing huge incentives.

    This is plausible but far from guaranteed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,250 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    thanks again, i understand the plausibility of airlines, but im just not convinced, time will tell i guess



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 620 ✭✭✭AnRothar


    Very little belly cargo in Shannon. Aer Lingus is closing its cargo unit in Shannon.

    Core freight is UPS, DHL, and the others which arrive in the morning and depart in the evening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,250 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    id imagine theres some freight going into cork, or is it all dublin?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭azimuth17


    Interesting that Dublin, Cork and Limerick are all within 160 km of Waterford. That arc looks like it contains most of the population of the state? Neither Dublin, Cork or Limerick has that same advantage?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,196 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    If that was actually an advantage, there would be operators in the airport as it is. It had flights to the major UK cities, Amsterdam and some sun routes in 2007-8 for instance; with the same runway.

    There are plenty of people who might be closer to Waterford (or Shannon or Cork or even all three) but have a 24h bus route to Dublin Airport; so they're going to fly out of Dublin regardless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭azimuth17


    No offence meant, but that is the logic that supports an all consuming, everything centralised, nothing any place else, Dublin.

    Dystopia beckons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,250 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    its actually very dangerous for the entire economy and society at large, we have to start de-centralising, some how, and quickly….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭914


    I don't see freight being the main source here. Possibly aircraft maintenance and testing, that would probably generate more than freight.

    Waterford already does some small freight from time to time and I feel even with a runway extension that would be the scope of it.

    Aircraft maintenance, private flights and passenger services would be the hope.

    A Gulfstream aircraft loading up on fuel before departure, parking fee, handling fee would most likely be worth more than a passenger operated route.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,213 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    If your not driving Dublin Airport is much easier to get to from Waterford then Cork or Shannon

    I'd fly out of Cork more if it had later bus services akin to JJ Kavanaghs 01.30 Dublin Airport service

    I would never use Dublin Coach service to Dublin Airport again



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,250 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    yea this now seems like a more viable approach, gutted over the freight issues, probably isnt a runner either now



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,196 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    It's the reality though. Closer does not provide any innate advantage.

    Realistically in many countries, Shannon and Cork wouldn't even have airports, they'd have rail to Dublin. Donegal, Kerry and Knock might still exist but they'd only have flights to Dublin (Donegal having a few a week to Glasgow on top of that currently)

    What we have, with millions of passengers using the other airports, is already very decentralised



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,250 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    …but the system is clearly dublin centric, this in turn puts pressure on all other other critical infrastructure including water, energy, telecommunications, transport etc etc, thats not good



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭azimuth17


    Can I ask at what stage you envisage that enough people are flying through Dublin? 50million per annum perhaps? I presume that the natural corollary to the argument you present is that a second airport will then be necessary in Dublin for the next 50million?

    Your argument may be right and high speed rail connections to the capital and its airport may be what will happen, but it is not physically healthy for Dublin or econimcally healthy for the rest of the country. It really smacks, to me anyway, of a post colonial, post imperial attitude in Dublin embedded in the group think there, which says, lets do to Ireland what London does to the UK?

    The whole development of the capital vis a vis the rest of the country is ad hoc and summarised as "let it rip!"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,196 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Second airports in a single city are always a bad idea.

    Waterford being close in crow flies distance does not justify it being the next place to build up. Realistically it should be Cork but the airfield is in a terrible location.

    It isn't economically healthy for the country to have to subsidise Ryanair to fly to Luton, but that's what'll have to be done in WAT is to get London flights back it seems.

    If other places had high speed rail connections to Dublin, they would be in a strong position to grow, by the way. Multiple small, struggling airports is not balanced regional development in any way, shape or form.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭azimuth17


    Thanks. The Cork airport is in a poor position relative to Munster and at a relatively high altitude, but their political strength will try everyting to overcome that. It should have been built in Midleton as was originally proposed I think, which would have been a serious bet, but the burghers of Cork felt the economic benefit of the airport would not be captured by Cork city.

    When Shannon was being built, the preferred location as I understand it, was in Limerick junction in Co Tipp, with rail access from all the country, but De Valera as a Clare TD wanted the "save the west" airport in Clare with benefits for Limerick and Galway cities and so it turned out. He was right in the short term.

    I mean no disrespect, but people in Waterford are tired of Dublin and latterly Cork hegemony. Much of the rationale smacks of the Irish post famine fear of scarcity. All facilities have to be rationed because there are not enough people to support demand, despite a growing population and ultimately, as with Dublin airport, "We have a big Dunne's stores here, why do you want one? It won't work!"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,196 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The rationing argument doesn't work, though - the airport is there.

    We know that it can support flights to many locations as it is; if they were financially viable. All major UK cities, could even get to Paris; even Amsterdam if slots were available.

    But there's nobody operating any of those flights, as the demand at the required cost doesn't exist.

    Extending the runway will increase the number of potential operators, but need even more passengers to be viable. Just being able to use a bigger plane doesn't bring the operating costs down enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 620 ✭✭✭AnRothar


    When Shannon was being built, the preferred location as I understand it, was in Limerick junction in Co Tipp, with rail access from all the country, 

    incorrect. The options were curraline(?) North of Galway or Rinnena in Shannon.

    Post edited by AnRothar on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,284 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    I was told as a child there was some plans to build it on the flat land near Moyasta in West Clare also. No idea if there's any accuracy there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,576 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I think the flying boats routes were already established at Foynes and Shannon was the natural progression out of that business



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭914


    The airport is extremely limited with who they can approach now.

    The only real bet at present is Emerald Airlines and they are tied in and ensuring they fullfil their contact with Aer Lingus.

    Outside of emerald I don't see another airline operating in Ireland using turbo prop aircraft? Maybe I'm missing one.

    Hitting Paris is doable with an ATR, but the cost of slots, landing fees at say CDG, really wouldn't make an ATR viable from Waterford to Paris, at capacity 72 people on board.

    The fact is there aren't enough regional operators to service small runways and those who are still in business are struggling to remain in business, so outside of Emerald you are depending on UK based airlines such as LoganAir who only operate into the North I believe.

    Having an extended runway greatly increases who they can approach, even excluding airlines chartered summer flights.

    I've always said it at worse you have one airline operating one London return flight daily, that would be a huge light to Waterford and the South East and you would expect in time once the route was successfully you would see increases.

    The Irish government waste money left right and centre and will continue to do so, so not developing Waterford airport is not going to see massive change anywhere else, developing Waterford airport is not going to effect projects or services anywhere else.

    If it was a waste for once I would be glad to see government waste money here!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,196 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    You'd be doing ORY, BVA or XCR ("Paris Disney" as Ryanair used to call it) from WAT, not CDG. ORY on an Emerald ATR - won't happen, but… - would be pretty decent as it would connect to Vueling there onwards to a lot of tourist cities.

    A 738 or A320 to London is going to need significant concessions on fees - direct subsidy wouldn't be allowed - and those are time limited before they become state support.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭914


    Would it though, most likely airport will give free landing charge, no fuel taking onboard at WAT, no catering or any of that at Waterford, fly in, off load passengers, onboard passengers flight back out.

    DUB → LONDON → Waterford →London →Dublin only a drop in service as an example.

    Airport running a split shift to ensure they have enough fire, security and operations cover.

    Fill the flight airline makes their few bob, airport will still require some sort of operational state funding as do most airports here.

    Really don't see the issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭azimuth17


    If they raise Dublin cap to say 40m passengers and that number is exceeded, what do you think will happen then?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,196 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    They'll raise it again; or more realistically remove it entirely.

    There is no 'balanced regional development' argument that leads to significant investment in a tertiary airport.

    If the free landing charge is shown to be permanently subsidised by any government money, it's state aid which is against EU rules.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭914


    It's generally free landing fees and minimum handling charges that airports offer initially. Airlines will pay the handling fee, and at the end of the year the airport will receive some "operational" support which would cover any losses.

    This has been the norm for regional airports in Ireland. The south east is still lagging behind other regions so these costs can be off set against some form of regional support supplement or PSO.

    Anyhow I don't really care about who pays for what or if they are in violation of EU rules, at the end of the day rules are always manipulated or alternatives are found as way around the rules.

    Again I don't see any reason not to develope Waterford and see how it performs, outside of passenger airlines if they increased private flights, kept expanding the flight training schools, for some form of aircraft maintenance then the passenger services would be a bonus



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,515 ✭✭✭Masala


    “….Anyhow I don't really care about who pays for what or if they are in violation of EU rules, at the end of the day rules are always manipulated or alternatives are found as way around the rules.”

    ……. Well a proper Board of Directors and a set of investors WILL care. So will a set of government departments you will be going to with the begging Bowl. Rules are not there to be broken…… if you don’t comply you are fcuked.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭914


    Lol rules are not there to be broken. Ireland runs so flawlessly! Have never known any business or government in Ireland not to "break" or find a way around a rule.

    Waterford Airport operated in the mid naughtiest very well. With a limited runway they were handling over 100k passengers a year, solely using ART aircraft and the odd BAE146, the only money received from government then was operational funding.

    If the airport expanded the runway the same model would apply. The airport will most likely start with one drop in service, once the drop in service is successfully operations would expand, a second service and so on.

    I would expect it to get to the levels of Kerry airport which would be an enormous boost to Waterford and the region, a fully functional regional airport servicing the UK, mainland Europe and the occasionally summer flights.

    Sure airport may require operational funding each year, but the benefit of increased jobs at the airport, attached business, would offer set this small change as that is all it would be.

    So when I say I don't care for how it is paid for I really don't, the government waste money up and down the country so let's waste some small money here for once that could have an enormous impact on the region.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭azimuth17


    Government departments and budgets……bike sheds, security huts. HSE. They really are terrific at running a tight ship.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,982 ✭✭✭Deise Vu


    We have got to stop driving ourselves crazy. This is never happening. Dublin Airport is now over planning capacity and the govt is doing nothing about it. “It’s a BP issue, we can’t do anything “. Literally millions of potential visitors excluded from the country and potentially billions in tourist revenues and FDI at stake and they are powerless to act.

    Why? Because we have a minister for transport who thinks everyone can walk to work and holiday on their local greenway and the rest of them think if enough pressure builds on Dublin, flights will leak to Cork, Shannon and Knock. There is no way that Waterford will be sanctioned just in case one or two flights leak there instead.

    What absolutely galls me is not that this was already sanctioned at a lower cost, nor that it is the cost of few bike sheds and security huts, its the fact that we get accused of parish pump politics when it is the govt parties who are hobbling the country with their parish pump mindsets.

    Our port is now run (down) from Cork, our hospital is mismanaged from Cork. Does anyone really believe we will be allowed set up an airport that might draw from Cork? Regional development my arse.

    I can only repeat, because I can barely believe it myself, Dublin is rejecting flights due to Govt inaction. It genuinely beggars belief. We are literally chucking away National Children’s Hospital loads of cash for want of a simple decision.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,250 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    very unlikely greens will be in government next with ffg, so that changes the dynamic, theres actually still a chance this could happen next government, it certainly wont if we give up on it though, we have to keep pushing for it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭Valhalla90


    This issue is not going to go away. I’d say something if we were looking for 100million. We are not asking for much at all. It just doesn’t fit into the narrative that all roads lead to Dublin & Cork. The more they give us the less dependent we are on them. It’s not about money at all. Ryan being transport minister also doesn’t help but the Greens are finished so he won’t be there for much longer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65 ✭✭Iwastimthe


    …….

    Post edited by Iwastimthe on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭dzilla


    So this has to be fully funded privately before the govt will reimburse their cut is what Matt Shanahan has said.

    Taking the Waterford and local aspect out of this I think the government has missed a trick here, if a region / city wants something bad enough then get get the locality / business to foot some of the funding and they will do the rest. The funding model could have been used for a number of other future regional infrastructure projects in the future as a benchmark.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,250 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    …its a worrying development that more and more critical social and economic needs are being forced towards market based entities, private enterprise etc, but then again, this is the fundamental basis of ffg's ideologies, so no surprises really, and its gonna be many more ffg governments, so, happy days…..



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 50 ✭✭dan575283578


    I wonder what's gonna happen now… will the investors just give up and decide its not worth it???



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 367 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    As long as it is not their 3am service, as that is advertised on the timetables in town on the bus stops, but never comes. Hasd to get a taxi to Dublin!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭914


    One would wonder why the investors don't just plough ahead so?

    If they have the money start the works, there is no better way to apply pressure on government.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭914




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,686 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Yeah , because it took them 2 years to do their business model, and then returned to them ,for clarification,for several months , to arrive just before an election .. 🤔,

    It's not necessarily a bad thing to get the runway extended, the project isn't going to need 10 to 15 million of public money ,it'll be a lot more than that - time has moved on ,and construction inflation is a real thing .. I suppose a lot is going to come down to how it's going to be matched , including any increase in costs ..

    I can't imagine with the way the current gov is chucking money around like snuff at a wake that they won't commit to funding this while electioneering,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 546 ✭✭✭yew_tree


    Hi all. Just a comment on Knock as I’ve seen it referenced here. As a regular user of the airport you only have to look at the car park regs. Plenty of NI plates. I’ve also spoken to people from the midlands who would rather fly from knock due to cheaper car parking and ease of access than Dublin.

    Even met a family from Clare who decided knock over Shannon as the times suited them better. I’ve also used Shannon and Dublin numerous times. The problem with knock is the lack of a large city beside it to fuel further expansion. That said it’s doing very well at the minute and is well served to/from the UK and various sun holiday destinations. There used to be scheduled flights to Boston and New York until the airline (FlyGlobespan) went bust.

    Anyway all the best to Waterford airport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    A Northern Ireland reg in that part of the world is not necessarily an indicator of an NI-resident driver.

    Go to any club football game in Donegal, Sligo, Roscommon or Leitrim and you'll see as many yellow-regs as Irish regs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭914


    The government effectively saying No to Waterford Airport

    https://www.facebook.com/share/v/GDChP1gyuUj4d2QQ/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 620 ✭✭✭AnRothar




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭azimuth17


    The government is not refusing anything. Its a simple case of the Minister for Transport Mr Ryan bringing a memo to cabinet supporting the proposal and asking for cabinet sign off. Ryan has implicitly refused to do so, hence the stalemate. We will have an election soon anyway and the cabinet which did not force him to act will be asking for your vote again.

    The Green Party in Waterford will be buried so deep because of Mr Ryan's inanity, that even a submarine will be unable to find them. A dismal exercise in unnecessary political self harm.



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