Waterford Airport.

JCX BXC

notharrypotter wrote: »

Clonmel has Cork/Dublin/Shannon all in very easy reach Waterford rarely enters the equation but yet it in "their" catchment.

I think a better example would be cahir, its on the main Limerick-Waterford road and Dublin-Cork motorway.

notharrypotter

I'm just trying to find a rationale for what they're doing!

I sadly think the rationale is throw a few scraps and they would be happy.

Economically there is no longer a rationale for all our airports but that's a political decision.

.What options would Ryanair have by way of competition if this happened? They couldn't open a route in direct competition,

That's effectively what they did last time.

In any event that was 10 years ago, and there have been huge economic changes in the meantime. Would the situation be similar now?

It's probably worse. Whatever about speculative routes during the good times that's not going to happen now.

who would reasonably be expected to consider a flight via Waterford

There in lies the problem, how do you define reasonably?

The population of the south east is slightly better served in terms of travel options so significant investment cannot be justified hence my initial comment.

I think a better example would be cahir,

No Clonmel pop 16K
Cahir 3K.

air2000

notharrypotter wrote: »

I sadly think the rationale is throw a few scraps and they would be happy.

Any funding for the runway is out of the airports pocket. The rationale is build the best with what you got.

notharrypotter

Any funding for the runway is out of the airports pocket

Have you a source?

air2000

kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-06-26a.28

Teebor15

Link to the planning if anyone wants to read. Should be decided soon.

Reading through some of the documents there it seems the Planning Authority is seeking more information on the impact of the extension to Birdlife on the backstrand. Won't be a show stopper but I suppose they have to tick the boxes. So the airport has until the middle of Jan 15 to submit that additional information so looking like late Feb/early Mar before a decision will be made.

I see also they are requesting a 10 year permission rather than the normal 5 years. As I said before getting planning permission is one thing funding it is another thing altogether. So even if planning is received there may not be any work done for a few years. I suppose they want to be ready to strike if their numbers come up on the Euromillions any time soon!

Just so everyone is clear on this: the new runway length is still too short to accommodate Ryanair jets.

That's correct. As far as I can remember Ryanair's minimum requirement is 1850m LDA (Landing Distance Available) This will fall far short of that. Ryanair also require 45M width this will still be 30M.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not too short for Easyjet's A319s, right?

I don't know EasyJets technical requirements for runways but they would certainly be less restrictive than Ryanairs. The 350m extension should satisfy their runway length requirements but they do not operate into any airport with a 30m runway like Waterford, that's not to say they wouldn't.

Would EasyJet be interested? I'm not sure. Taking the route on its own merits then its a nobrainer. They could easily operate a 2 flights a day. Say one to Luton/Stansted covering North London and one to Gatwick serving South London and maybe 4 times a week to Liverpool/Manchester.

Would they want to is another matter. Would it be worth poking Ryanair by coming into Ireland again for just a couple of routes, Waterford would be just a another airport out of all the others they serve around Europe and lets face it we are not exactly Paris or Amsterdam, where there is an abundance of high yielding passengers just waiting to be milked. True, Ryanair could not directly compete but make Michael O'Leary angry and he may attack other EasyJet routes out of sheer spite.

As has been said this extension is out of the airports pocket or willing investors which are currently very scarce Id imagine. Of course the airport would love to put the runway issue to bed once and for all and build a big 2000m long, 45m wide runway with all the bells and whistles. But just like the long wait for a University, the long wait for a Jet runway for the South East drags on and on and on and on...

notharrypotter

kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-06-26a.28

I had a look and I think the figures must be wrong, €150 million to extend the runway.

Department pledged towards a €150 million extension of the runway at Waterford Airport last August

DAA submission on extending runway 10/28 page 183.
390 m costs €55 million.

While the new northern runway is costed at €239 million (page 190).

air2000

Yep def wrong. Not sure if it would be 1.5m or 15m

I think 1.5m if not alot lesd would do a 350 extension- 15m would do a complete 2000 x 45

Plane Fan

Is there any update on Manchester returning for 2015?

man98

I think the runway extension was meant to cost around €1.2 million. Anyway, I'd personally be against Ryanair operating into Waterford, even were it physically possible. Ryanair have used 6,000 ft runways before (See: Belfast City), but not much a hope of safely taking off in WAT, as well as the fact that FR can be gone like the wind if it suits them (See: Belfast City) . I've personally gone so far as to email several airlines with a proposition of Waterford services, although none have had the decency to give me a proper answer. In my opinion Waterford needs BA Cityflyer or CityJet, who will fly to London. These airlines seem to be a cut above the rest. They have EJets/ RJ85s. They fly to the City itself, a completely different product to Ryanair's. They can offer €89 returns out of DUB, so maybe €109 if we're being realistic from WAT. These planes have the flexibility to get high load factors on 2 daily returns but, once again, neither have responded.

JCX BXC

man98 wrote: »

I think the runway extension was meant to cost around €1.2 million. Anyway, I'd personally be against Ryanair operating into Waterford, even were it physically possible. Ryanair have used 6,000 ft runways before (See: Belfast City), but not much a hope of safely taking off in WAT, as well as the fact that FR can be gone like the wind if it suits them (See: Belfast City) . I've personally gone so far as to email several airlines with a proposition of Waterford services, although none have had the decency to give me a proper answer. In my opinion Waterford needs BA Cityflyer or CityJet, who will fly to London. These airlines seem to be a cut above the rest. They have EJets/ RJ85s. They fly to the City itself, a completely different product to Ryanair's. They can offer €89 returns out of DUB, so maybe €109 if we're being realistic from WAT. These planes have the flexibility to get high load factors on 2 daily returns but, once again, neither have responded.

Would Waterford have the population to justify these high fares out of Waterford?

Plane Fan

Good point made about BA Cityflyer / Cityjet. I personally think we can only rely on Flybe or Stobart Air to give us a London route. It's two years since RE announced the base closure and no leeway has been made with LON. It's surprising as demand is there and it was RE's most successful route in the network at one stage. Flybe are due to announce the final summer schedules on Tuesday, firstly we have to hope that MANCHESTER returns for S15, can we anticipate anything else for the airport for 2015... Only time will tell!

man98

Carnacalla wrote: »

Would Waterford have the population to justify these high fares out of Waterford?

I don't see why not. While these fares may be high, costs of getting to Cork/ Dublin, paying far carry on bags, the little perks from either airline. What the LCY airlines offer is a more pleasant product. An Avro breaks even at 50% LF I'm told, which is 48 passengers. Waterford could easily hit that all year round. And if it doesn't? CityJet also have Fokker 50s.
EDIT: That's €109 RETURN, sorry.

dzilla

Lyon and Amsterdam have been added as onward destinations on the Flybe website. At the moment it is not the direct London and Manchester routes we need but it shows we are still very much in Flybe thinking.

Meathlass

notharrypotter wrote: »

Clonmel has Cork/Dublin/Shannon all in very easy reach Waterford rarely enters the equation but yet it in "their" catchment.

I live in Clonmel and fly to London about twice a month. I usually use Cork Heathrow with aer lingus or Dublin luton with ryanair.

Price is the main consideration for me so if a Waterford to London flight can compete with the €60 rtn I usually pay then I'll be first in the queue.

Having said that I rarely think about Waterford airport and actually googled it to see what destinations it currently serves - Birmingham and Manchester. Fine and all that but it certainly limits the appeal. Also €8 a day is far too expensive for parking. Both Dublin and Cork are around the €6 mark.

Fatty Magoo

Meathlass wrote: »

I live in Clonmel and fly to London about twice a month. I usually use Cork Heathrow with aer lingus or Dublin luton with ryanair.

Price is the main consideration for me so if a Waterford to London flight can compete with the €60 rtn I usually pay then I'll be first in the queue.

Having said that I rarely think about Waterford airport and actually googled it to see what destinations it currently serves - Birmingham and Manchester. Fine and all that but it certainly limits the appeal. Also €8 a day is far too expensive for parking. Both Dublin and Cork are around the €6 mark.

Yeah well at least we have an airport.

O Riain

Fatty Magoo wrote: »

Yeah well at least we have an airport.

The man made fair points?

Meathlass

Fatty Magoo wrote: »

Yeah well at least we have an airport.

I wasn't being pejorative about Waterford airport. I was responding to another poster who mentioned that Clonmel would be in Waterford's catchment area.

Waterford is competing with Dublin and Cork for my custom and I was pointing out some reasons why it might not be on people's radar - very limited routes and expensive parking.

It's impossible sometimes to constructively criticize things in Waterford.

dzilla

Fatty Magoo wrote: »

Yeah well at least we have an airport.

A regional airport. That somebody from the region was making valid points about.

dzilla

No announcement on potential routes from Flybe yet today. They announced a new route between Belfast and Liverpool this morning but other than that nothing.

Plane Fan

The rest of the Flybe summer routes were due today but according to their twitter they'll be announced soon. (If we are to get any)

dzilla

Plane Fan wrote: »

The rest of the Flybe summer routes were due today but according to their twitter they'll be announced by the end of the week. (If we are to get any)

Ah deadly! Still hope!!

TheQuietFella

Meathlass wrote: »

I live in Clonmel and fly to London about twice a month. I usually use Cork Heathrow with aer lingus or Dublin luton with ryanair.

Price is the main consideration for me so if a Waterford to London flight can compete with the €60 rtn I usually pay then I'll be first in the queue.

Having said that I rarely think about Waterford airport and actually googled it to see what destinations it currently serves - Birmingham and Manchester. Fine and all that but it certainly limits the appeal. Also €8 a day is far too expensive for parking. Both Dublin and Cork are around the €6 mark.

Constructive critism is 'not allowed' regarding Waterford Airport!

b757

Plane Fan wrote: »

The rest of the Flybe summer routes were due today but according to their twitter they'll be announced soon. (If we are to get any)

I have been waiting for it myself, but from what I have heard I wouldn't get my hopes up for now. Hopefully I am 100% wrong though.

fricatus

O Riain wrote: »

The man made fair points?

I assumed that Meathlass was a woman, but either way you're right - constructive criticism can do no harm.

I find the point about parking charges interesting. I would tend to look at the overall cost of a flight + parking + diesel when making a decision on where to fly from, however having a headline parking charge that is higher than that in the two nearest major airports does seem to be a little counterproductive.

Meathlass

fricatus wrote: »

I assumed that Meathlass was a woman, but either way you're right - constructive criticism can do no harm.

I find the point about parking charges interesting. I would tend to look at the overall cost of a flight + parking + diesel when making a decision on where to fly from, however having a headline parking charge that is higher than that in the two nearest major airports does seem to be a little counterproductive.

Yes, I am a woman. Meathlass is a bit of a give away!

Yes, I'd also take into account diseal+parking+driving time+flight when deciding where to fly from. But I will weight some elements more than others.

e.g. I would regularly pay €50 extra to fly out of Cork as it is less driving time and less hassle than Dublin airport. I'm paying a premium for the added convenience.

Cork and Waterford are both within equal distance to me. I've never been to Waterford airport but I presume it can't compete with Cork for shopping facilities? All things being equal I would then prefer to use Cork as I enjoy the duty free browsing part of my trips. To catch me as a customer Waterford would then need to offer similar airport facilities or a reduced headline flight price.

Hope that makes sense!

dzilla

Meathlass wrote: »

Yes, I am a woman. Meathlass is a bit of a give away!

Yes, I'd also take into account diseal+parking+driving time+flight when deciding where to fly from. But I will weight some elements more than others.

e.g. I would regularly pay €50 extra to fly out of Cork as it is less driving time and less hassle than Dublin airport. I'm paying a premium for the added convenience.

Cork and Waterford are both within equal distance to me. I've never been to Waterford airport but I presume it can't compete with Cork for shopping facilities? All things being equal I would then prefer to use Cork as I enjoy the duty free browsing part of my trips. To catch me as a customer Waterford would then need to offer similar airport facilities or a reduced headline flight price.

Hope that makes sense!

Yes of course, Waterford would not compete as you say, and you are in a situation of choice to be honest so you have the luxury of making those decisions

fricatus

Meathlass wrote: »

I've never been to Waterford airport but I presume it can't compete with Cork for shopping facilities? All things being equal I would then prefer to use Cork as I enjoy the duty free browsing part of my trips.

You'd be right there. Waterford airport is tiny, which means that it's very convenient, and there's practically no walking. If you had a strong enough arm, I reckon you could throw a stone at the plane from your car. It also means that the facilities are basic (though the coffee shop in the public lobby is lovely IIRC). I'm not even sure that there is a duty-free shop - maybe someone can comment?

Personally I have no interest in duty-free facilities, so that bit makes no difference to me. In fact, it annoys me that in most airports, you are dumped out of security straight into a drink-and-fags supermarket! I can understand the attraction for other people, though I never would have thought it would be such a big deal as to be a factor in someone's decision. Goes to show that you need to know your market!

Price and distance/convenience are my top criteria, so I would pay a €100 premium to fly out of Waterford for a weekend in London. I would save €25 of diesel plus as much again in parking charges (as getting a lift out to WAT is not a problem for me), so that's €50 in hard cash saved, and I'm happy to pay the extra €50 not to have to spend 4-5 hours of my life on the M9/M50 and to be arsing around on the long-term car park buses.

dzilla

fricatus wrote: »

You'd be right there. Waterford airport is tiny, which means that it's very convenient, and there's practically no walking. If you had a strong enough arm, I reckon you could throw a stone at the plane from your car. It also means that the facilities are basic (though the coffee shop in the public lobby is lovely IIRC). I'm not even sure that there is a duty-free shop - maybe someone can comment?

Personally I have no interest in duty-free facilities, so that bit makes no difference to me. In fact, it annoys me that in most airports, you are dumped out of security straight into a drink-and-fags supermarket! I can understand the attraction for other people, though I never would have thought it would be such a big deal as to be a factor in someone's decision. Goes to show that you need to know your market!

Price and distance/convenience are my top criteria, so I would pay a €100 premium to fly out of Waterford for a weekend in London. I would save €25 of diesel plus as much again in parking charges (as getting a lift out to WAT is not a problem for me), so that's €50 in hard cash saved, and I'm happy to pay the extra €50 not to have to spend 4-5 hours of my life on the M9/M50 and to be arsing around on the long-term car park buses.

Ditto.

went to the islands in Greece during the summer, Dublin - > Rome - > Santorini

On reflection, when I took the hotel in dublin/parking and my time it would have made so much more sense to go Wat - Birmingham/Manchester - Santorini

We live and Learn!!

Meathlass

I'm not saying that duty free is a big factor for me but if I'm going to spend 40 mins to an hour waiting for a flight I like somewhere warm and comfortable.

Coming up to Christmas I've 6 flights to take to Europe. I will actually travel from Dublin for one of these even though it's more expensive as I want to stock up on make up, perfume and electronics as Christmas presents in duty free.

There are varying market needs which need to be accounted for but I'd accept I'm probably not part of the core target demographic for WAT.

I can of course understand why people living in Waterford would use WAT over any other airport but surely Waterford City and County isn't big enough to sustain an airport hence they need to target people like me who live in the broader region. By default though we have much more choice so WAT need to compete on multiple variables - flight price, facilities, convenience and parking etc.