Waterford Airport.

Squidvicious

Plane Fan wrote: »

Superb load factors compared to previous years on those routes when RE had them! Shouldn't that be enough to get flybe to operate Manchester next year, I suppose next month will tell when BE launch the S15 Schedule!

How expensive is it to have a "slot" at a busy airport like Manchester or any of the London airports? I reckon that a huge problem for Waterford is that if, say, Aer Lingus has a slot for Waterford to Luton and they can only fly 60 passengers or whatever it is on the flight from Waterford, it makes far more sense for Aer Lingus to switch the slot to, say, the Dublin Luton route. Even if the only have a 70% loading on the Dublin Luton route, they'll make far more out of that slot.

Now, I am assuming that slots are (a)hard to get at busier airports,(b) expensive and (c) airlines own slots and can "switch" them between routes. However, if I'm right, an airport extension is an absolute necessity for Waterford as airlines will always be tempted to switch slots to bigger airports with bigger planes.

CelticRambler

Yes and no. You can have a runway as long as you like and the biggest aircraft possible, but if the catchment population can only sustain flights of 60 passengers on average it will never make sense for an airline to give a hub slot to a regional route. The future for regional airports (especially Waterford) lies in offering routes to destinations that are not major hubs, but that people will go to precisely because they're "boutique" destinations. It works the other way too - Waterford has to promote itself as the best airport in Ireland for high-end/exclusive/special interest groups and stop trying to be Dublin-Lite.

b757

Great bit of business jet activity lately. Significant increase in the last number of months I reckon.

Plane Fan

b757 wrote: »

Great bit of business jet activity lately. Significant increase in the last number of months I reckon.

Ye quiet a few and a wide range too! Great for the airport !

Teebor15

We all know that getting the passengers services back up to speed are the top priority and the main function of the airport but they are not the be all and end all of ensuring the continuation of direct air access to the South East region.

The recent business jet activity mentioned above is evidence of just how important the airport is and justifies the relatively small state support the airport (pennies in comparison to some of the state airports) requires to continue providing this access.

Just for interest some of the recent visitors were Sanofi (parent company) from France to announce major expansion at Genzyme.

A new regular visitor from Germany who has a company here (I don't know which one, think its in IT)

Another large group from Germany. I'm only speculating here but I think it might be the new Pharma company rumoured for the city. If it is I wonder was the airport a key selling point?

Dawn Meats have their own executive aircraft which flies a couple a times a week from Waterford to the UK and Europe.

And there are many others...

Another point is the Rescue Helicopter. Since the new helicopters have been introduced to service the number of rescue calls has risen sharply due to its extended range (over 200 miles off shore) and capabilities meaning its attending more incidents like traffic accidents and conducting medivacs (Bringing critical patients from WUH to Cork and Dublin in 20-30 Minutes)

We all hope the airport can restore the London services asap but lets not forget these other important functions the airport provides to the region.

Chip Whitley

Did anyone hear Michael O'Leary on Ray D'Arcy this morning? He was asked why Ryanair didn't fly/support Waterford and he (I'm paraphrasing here) said it just wasn't viable. The runway was too short for commercially viable jets, he said we were too close to Cork and Dublin and the motorways in and out were too good so people preferred to fly to Cork and Dublin and drive the rest of the way but that nobody wanted to tell Waterford that.

dzilla

Brendão wrote: »

Did anyone hear Michael O'Leary on Ray D'Arcy this morning? He was asked why Ryanair didn't fly/support Waterford and he (I'm paraphrasing here) said it just wasn't viable. The runway was too short for commercially viable jets, he said we were too close to Cork and Dublin and the motorways in and out were too good so people preferred to fly to Cork and Dublin and drive the rest of the way but that nobody wanted to tell Waterford that.

Heard that. To be honest I know a lot of people like to play him like a big bad wolf over him saying there was no future for Waterford before. However regarding why he dosen't fly here, taking demographics and motorways out of the equation it is simply that the runway is not capable of landing a Boeing 737 which comprises his whole fleet.

fricatus

Just to break down his arguments with a couple of counter arguments:

Brendão wrote: »

not viable

It's a non-profit entity. It only has to cover its costs, then it's viable.

Brendão wrote: »

runway too short for commercially viable jets

It's not too short for commercially viable props, but the point is a fair one. One way or another, it needs to be extended so that it can take the jets.

Brendão wrote: »

too close to Cork and Dublin

He really should get out his map. Here are some sample distances between airports:
Kerry-Cork: 104 km
Kerry-Shannon: 118 km
Shannon-Cork: 131 km
Waterford-Cork: 135 km
Knock-Shannon: 158 km
Waterford-Dublin: 188
Knock-Dublin: 210 km
Shannon-Dublin: 233 km

He serves all of those except Waterford. You could make the same arguments for Shannon as he's making for Waterford, yet he flies there...

Brendão wrote: »

motorways in and out too good

The motorway to Dublin is good, but it's still a long way! There's no motorway to Cork either, and in parts the road is quite poor (Killagh/Castlemartyr). It's not an easy drive.

Brendão wrote: »

people prefer to fly to Cork and Dublin and drive the rest of the way...

No they don't! People fly from the closest available airport all things being equal! Who here ever drove to Dublin or Cork for a London flight when they were running three times a day from Waterford?

Obviously there would be exceptions in the case of needing an early arrival or a specific airport (e.g. connecting onwards out of Heathrow or going to Gatwick for the south coast).

Brendão wrote: »

...nobody wanted to tell Waterford that.

Hmmm... given the way the rug has been pulled out from under our feet in recent years by government (city council abolished, no support for Waterford Crystal pensions, VEC moved to Wexford, SE hospital group disbanded), I'm surprised they didn't just decide to put another boot in for cost-saving reasons. :mad:

savic04

Can someone tell me why WAT built a small runway when they were building the airport to begin with

Was it because of land, money, or planning ?

JCX BXC

savic04 wrote: »

Can someone tell me why WAT built a small runway when they were building the airport to begin with

Was it because of land, money, or planning ?

Waterford is not a new airport by any means.
When opened in the 1980's the airport was envisioned to be a gateway for England from Waterford and was though to never need the capacity for a jet engined plane, of course 30+ years later needs have changed.

savic04

Surely even on the 80s they knew they would need jet aircraft to survive ?

notharrypotter

savic04 wrote: »

Surely even on the 80s they knew they would need jet aircraft to survive ?

Quite simply no.

You are looking at things with the benefit of 30+ years of hindsight.

In the 1980's Ireland was in recession.

Flying was for the rich and shameless.

Waterford Airport Wikipedia page.

The airport opened in 1981 with a 1,200 by 29 m (3,937 by 95 ft) runway for single and twin-engine light aircraft and a portable cabin as terminal building. In 1992 the current terminal building was opened and the runway expanded to 1,433 by 30 m (4,701 by 98 ft).

Aer Lingus Wikipedia page

In 1984, a fully owned subsidiary, Aer Lingus Commuter, was formed so that Aer Lingus could fly to larger cities in Ireland and Britain whose flying time from Dublin did not require jet planes. These services were operated primarily by five of the Belfast-built Short 360 after conducting a trial with the Short 330

RYANAIR Wikipedia page

Ryanair was founded in 1985 by Christopher Ryan, Liam Lonergan (owner of Irish travel agent Club Travel) and Irish businessman Tony Ryan (after whom the company is named), founder of Guinness Peat Aviation.[5] The airline began with a 15-seat Embraer Bandeirante turboprop aircraft, flying between Waterford and Gatwick Airport

Johnny901

Fricatus and Teebor have nailed it, there is a lot more to Waterford Airport's value than passenger services, I see this morning that Rescue 117 is on the way to London with a seriously ill patient.

As for MOL's comments on Today FM, MOL will say whatever works best for Ryanair. If the runway is extended at Waterford and could take Ryanair's jets he would be on knocking Cork and Dublin and extoling the virtues of Waterford.

b757

Flybe to start using their Embraer E175 jet on the BHX route from the 29th March, according to their booking system.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Flybe---British/Embraer-ERJ-170-200LR-175LR/2483303/L/

dzilla

Fantastic, looking forward to seeing them arrive at our airport

JCX BXC

b757 wrote: »

Flybe to start using their Embraer E175 jet on the BHX route from the 29th March, according to their booking system.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Flybe---British/Embraer-ERJ-170-200LR-175LR/2483303/L/

That's a nice capacity upgrade for the airport! Will it still have the 3/4 flights a week?

fricatus

b757 wrote: »

Flybe to start using their Embraer E175 jet on the BHX route from the 29th March, according to their booking system.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Flybe---British/Embraer-ERJ-170-200LR-175LR/2483303/L/

Yaay!!!

b757

Carnacalla wrote: »

That's a nice capacity upgrade for the airport! Will it still have the 3/4 flights a week?

4 flights per week

Max Powers

b757 wrote: »

4 flights per week

Explain please, means more seats on the plane is it??
Didnt think runway was long enough for jets.
Good to hear airport being supported by its clients

Teebor15

Well its good to see Birmingham back to 4 days a week next summer with no break in Jan-Feb like the previous years. Lets hope Manchester follows soon.

On the fact that BHX will be an E175. Well although its on the booking engine at the moment I'd doubt we will actually see it come next March. I would say the runway is probably too short, especially the landing distance available when landing Runway 21 at only 1290M on a downward slope.

Ironically the E175's big brother, the 118 seat E195 that FLYBE have but are almost completely phasing out would be better equipped for Waterford's runway due it having more powerful engines relative to its size!

I would love to be wrong on this one, maybe the short flight distance means it will work and that FLYBE have their sums done and we will indeed see it. Going on summer 14 figures the market seems to be there to support more capacity, but I have a hunch it will be the Dash 8 as per usual.

dzilla

Max Powers wrote: »

Didnt think runway was long enough for jets.

When people refer to the mid size jets of most European Carriers that they would like to see at WAT they are referring mainly to 737s. This Jet is not suitable for WAT.

However smaller jets such as the Avro E185 or the Embraer are it would appear.

b757

http://193.178.30.218/waterfordeplan/FileRefDetails.aspx?file_number=1489&LASiteID=0

Link to the planning if anyone wants to read. Should be decided soon.

Runway extension will be done in 2 phases. 150m and 200m, giving a total of 350m w/ 2 turning circles.

dzilla

Wow thanks for sharing

Dum_Dum

Just so everyone is clear on this: the new runway length is still too short to accommodate Ryanair jets.

15 years of mass aviation in Europe for the masses, all those people whizzing around above your head seeing new cultures and climes. But Waterford continues to regress; missing out on so much.

dzilla

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Just so everyone is clear on this: the new runway length is still too short to accommodate Ryanair jets.

15 years of mass aviation in Europe for the masses, all those people whizzing around above your head seeing new cultures and climes. But Waterford continues to regress; missing out on so much.

I may be wrong as I am a casual Airline fan but would an runway length of 1780m cater for 737 up to 700 series?
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/startup/pdf/737ng_perf.pdf
It wouldnt cater for the 737-800 or MAX Ryanair have? Maybe it could with restrictions.

Could somebody clarify this?

fricatus

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Just so everyone is clear on this: the new runway length is still too short to accommodate Ryanair jets.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not too short for Easyjet's A319s, right?

Maybe that's the plan? Certainly if I was a marketing guy, I would think the easiest way of competing with Ryanair would be to operate from an airport where they can't operate!

If you could get Easyjet into Waterford and then hoover up traffic from all over Munster and Leinster to London, without Ryanair being able to do anything about it, wouldn't that be nice?

The Dublin-London route is one of the busiest in Europe. Something like 5-10% has to originate in Waterford's catchment (50 miles) surely? If I were Easyjet, I wouldn't be ignoring that!

fricatus

dzilla wrote: »

I may be wrong as I am a casual Airline fan but would an runway length of 1780m cater for 737 up to 700 series?
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/startup/pdf/737ng_perf.pdf
It wouldnt cater for the 737-800 or MAX Ryanair have? Maybe it could with restrictions.

Could somebody clarify this?

IIRC, Ryanair operate a company minimum of 1800m, even though their jets can operate from shorter runways (especially below max weights).

notharrypotter

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not too short for Easyjet's A319s, right?

Maybe that's the plan? Certainly if I was a marketing guy, I would think the easiest way of competing with Ryanair would be to operate from an airport where they can't operate!

If my marketing guy came up with a plan that precludes the major low cost operator on the islands I would fire him.

The Dublin-London route is one of the busiest in Europe. Something like 5-10% has to originate in Waterford's catchment (50 miles) surely? If I were Easyjet, I wouldn't be ignoring that!

Last time Easyjet operated in Ireland they learned how narrow the margins are.

There has been many interesting threads here on boards.ie where the supporters of a given airport have a very elastic understanding of the catchment area of an airport.

Clonmel has Cork/Dublin/Shannon all in very easy reach Waterford rarely enters the equation but yet it in "their" catchment.

dzilla

fricatus wrote: »

IIRC, Ryanair operate a company minimum of 1800m, even though their jets can operate from shorter runways (especially below max weights).

I see

fricatus

notharrypotter wrote: »

If my marketing guy came up with a plan that precludes the major low cost operator on the islands I would fire him.

Hey listen, I'm just trying to find a rationale for what they're doing!

Let's say Easyjet did open a Waterford-London route and offered fares comparable to those that Ryanair offer out of Dublin. There's potential for 150-300k passengers a year there surely.

What options would Ryanair have by way of competition if this happened? They couldn't open a route in direct competition, and lowering fares on Dublin-London might drive Easyjet out eventually, but that would be at the cost of sustained loss of margin on a huge route.

Not saying any of this is likely, but we're allowed to speculate wildly on here, aren't we?

notharrypotter wrote: »

Last time Easyjet operated in Ireland they learned how narrow the margins are.

Well were they narrow, or were they rather "narrowed" by Ryanair in a bid to get them out? In any event that was 10 years ago, and there have been huge economic changes in the meantime. Would the situation be similar now?

notharrypotter wrote: »

There has been many interesting threads here on boards.ie where the supporters of a given airport have a very elastic understanding of the catchment area of an airport.

Clonmel has Cork/Dublin/Shannon all in very easy reach Waterford rarely enters the equation but yet it in "their" catchment.

Fair point, but what I was referring to was those people travelling to London via Dublin who would reasonably be expected to consider a flight via Waterford if the option were available.