The Irish suicide question

Promac

newmug wrote: »

Why? Explain why. I see you're living in NZ now, so it cant be the weather or scenery! What was it, the drinking culture, the urbanisation of Ireland, what was it? Break it down for us. BTW what age are you, m/f?

I'm 36 and male and have been living with depression since my early teens. I lived in Ireland most my life (north and south), I lived in Europe for years and now I live in NZ and I can honestly say that everywhere I've been outside Ireland has been a far more pleasant place to be. Ireland has it's charms and it's a crackin place to visit but I never want to live there again. And don't imply from that that I'm saying Ireland is the worst place to live - far from it.

There are various reasons why Ireland is horrible but I'm not gonna do a "your place versus my place" argument. If you have a good life and little to complain about then Ireland could be a grand place to live, as I'm sure it is for most, but if you have to deal with depression too then it's horrible (in my experience) and people have already covered most of the reasons why in this thread. Living somewhere with a better quality of life, people that are happier in general and more positive overall and being in a place where the sun shines most days rather than the opposite is just something that makes dealing with depression a lot easier.

I find it interesting that you can't see why NZ would be better for weather or scenery though - did you come here in winter and only visit Greymouth? This is a beautiful country and gets the same kinda weather as parts of Spain. Might be better to start a new thread for that one though!

UCDVet

I think it's tragic when it happens; but I also think individuals have a right to commit suicide. I feel like it's the ultimate freedom. I hope I never do it, but it's an option. It's my life and I should be able to decide NOT to live it.

Having said that - why on Earth would anyone kill themselves and not even leave a note? I cannot think of a more cruel thing to do a family.

Promac

Confab wrote: »

Errr... NZ has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, and that's official.

I never said anything about NZ's suicide rates. I only commented on what Ireland was like to live in for someone who's depressed. NZ is a great place to live and people are generally baffled about the suicide rates here when general satisfaction is reportedly really high.

Professor David Ferguson, from the Department of Psychological Medicine at the University of Otago said this about it:

“The reasons for countries like New Zealand and Finland having high rates of suicide despite high reported satisfaction are by no means clear. The things that links these countries are that they are small liberal democracies with high rates of alcohol consumption but whether these factors have any bearing rates of suicide is also unclear. There is no intrinsic paradox in a country having a high rate of suicide and high life satisfaction bearing in mind that life satisfaction refers to the views of the majority and suicide to the behaviour of a very small minority.
“While there have been a number of speculative comments about New Zealand’s high rate of suicide, there are no generally accepted explanations for this. One possibility that needs to be considered is whether national differences reflect differences in reporting accuracy.

One possible explanation I've heard (and don't have a source for) is the religion thing - in general, people here are extremely secular while people in Ireland are extremely religious and it's a "sin" to commit suicide and you'll go to hell so it won't help you while, for an atheist, it's really just the end of suffering. That's just generalisation and something I read on the internet so take it with a pinch of salt.

Tchaikovsky

Promac wrote: »

I never said anything about NZ's suicide rates. I only commented on what Ireland was like to live in for someone who's depressed. NZ is a great place to live and people are generally baffled about the suicide rates here when general satisfaction is reportedly really high.

Professor David Ferguson, from the Department of Psychological Medicine at the University of Otago said this about it:


One possible explanation I've heard (and don't have a source for) is the religion thing - in general, people here are extremely secular while people in Ireland are extremely religious and it's a "sin" to commit suicide and you'll go to hell so it won't help you while, for an atheist, it's really just the end of suffering. That's just generalisation and something I read on the internet so take it with a pinch of salt.

Modern Ireland would be just as secular as New Zealand and statistics always place Irish people among the happiest in the world.
The whole suicide issue is just too complex, as already stated.

Fuinseog

personally, I believe part of the problem is that young people cannot deal with bad news and we as adults do not help them deal with it.I blame the 'everyone is a winner and nobody is better than anyone else' mentality that prevails in schools. if little Johnny has a problem in school there is always someone else to blame.

KCC

[QUOTE I'm in a poor paying job with no real progress. Terrible wages. All my friends are earning quite good money. They're moving out with their partners. They can afford nice cars. I can't do any of that. I don't really have the qualifications to work in a field that I really want to work in. I don't have the finances to do things that interest me. There really isn't any positive outlook. As a result confidence & self esteem is at an all time low. To perhaps progress in the job obviously requires confidence and high energy. This is gone so work quality decreases. Have I considered ending it? Of course I have. About 5 days of the week i wish i could just go away. Will I? I highly doubt that. I wouldn't want to cause that anount of grief to my family.[/QUOTE]

I just had to reply. I don't know if you are depressed, but it does sound like it from your post. Would you think about talking to a doctor about how you feel? I hope this doesn't sound patronising, but it might also help to have a plan to change things for the better. For example, I know you said your wages are low, but would you consider borrowing/saving so you can get the qualifications for the area that you really want to work in?

I also want to say that I am really glad you are thinking of your family. I had a friend and a family member commit suicide within a year and a half of each other and I can't explain the trauma and devastation. It's not like any other kind of bereavement - there is no closure, even now, years later, and I don't think there ever will be.

Please look after yourself and talk to someone you trust about all this.

KCC

UCDVet wrote: »

why on Earth would anyone kill themselves and not even leave a note? I cannot think of a more cruel thing to do a family.

Yes, but you are thinking about it logically when you say that. I think it's a reflection of just how bad a state of mind the person is in when they commit suicide.

KCC

eviltwin wrote: »

Its important to know that depressed people aren't always crying, unable to get out of bed etc etc. I still got up, went to work, met my friends, had a laugh but it was all fake. No one could see how crap I felt or how much of an effort it took to do even small things most people take for granted. Someone can look okay but be dying inside.

.

I hadn't really considered that before.

KCC

That's really tough. Of course it's terrible for the person suffering from depression, but it is also very hard dealing with family members with it.

Acapella

Suicide is at epidemic levels - the stats that we have are not even a true reflection on what really is going on. I am based in Limerick and not a week goes by without hearing someone has committed suicide.

Suicide is rife in Limerick City with volunteers setting up patrols on the River Shannon to prevent/save people jumping in:

http://www.limerickleader.ie/community/tragedies-on-river-shannon-prompt-response-team-to-patrol-1-3450038

This article is from last year but I only read in last weeks local paper that the group want to increase numbers and get more resources. I can't speak for the rest of the country but in Limerick severe unemployment and inadequate mental health services are not helping in lowering the local suicide rate.

KCC

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

In some of the cases of recent suicide i know of, there seems to have been an element of ''sudden impulse'', a drastic urge, a moment of utter abandon, rather than a long period of sustained depression. Therefore I would posit the idea that suicide has somehow become more of a psychologically acceptable option, an idea that when it arises no longer leads to an immediate rejection as being taboo....as if somehow we have become inoculated to the very idea of suicide and therefore it does not repel us, or rather the person who moves towards it, much as seeing violence and abuse in movies inoculates us to a sensation of empathy for those who suffer.......

Like I say, I don't know. I wish I did.

I agree with you. These are just my own views, I have nothing to back them up but:

I think the reasons for suicide are often complex and many.

I don't think someone necessarily has to be mentally ill in order to commit suicide. It's even harder for the family and friends when this is the case because there are no signs and nothing apparently to blame.

I think in the case of a lot of young people who do it,that they don't fully realise the consequences of what they are doing (I don't mean to sound patronising when I say that). I worry that the recent media attention may lead to copycat suicides.

I know the rate of suicide is rising due to the recession, but it was also very high prior to it. I have wondered if the high rate of suicide amongst men (particularly in rural areas) is linked their issues with their sexuality. For some it may be intolerable to come to a realisation that they are gay in an unaccepting environment.

I actually think it must be tough to be a man in many ways. I'm a woman, by the way, but I think there are a lot of societal expectations of men that there aren't of women.

I also reluctantly agree with you re: the de-sensitisation to violence. I know this sounds awful but I remember a friend of mine who did it who was very interested in a website which showed photos of horrific deaths. I recently wondered if this interest was a reflection of her state of mind or if it led to it in some way.

Finally, it is said that most people who die by suicide tell people of their intentions in advance. If someone says something like this, I think it should be taken very seriously and not seen as something said just for attention.

KCC

danslevent wrote: »

My Dad suffers from depression and I am glad some people on here have shared their stories because I honestly don't know how to feel/think about it. I feel like I have been really selfish...it has been going on for weeks now and at first I'd listen when I came home at the weekends from college but I have gotten annoyed with his usual rant and him never asking me anything about my life. I know, selfish of me since he is ill.

I'm going to try understand it more but is it bad sometimes I just don't want to hear about it? It really is so upsetting and he refuses councelling etc, I just don't know what to say anymore. He has made off hand comments about taking too many sleeping tablets but thankfully he seems a lot better now.

I wish I could feel what it feels like to be properly, properly depressed for just one day so I could relate and understand more. Is there anything a person can really do to get someone out of a depression? I feel so redundant sometimes even though I know someone elses happiness isn't my complete responsibility.

He might refuse counselling, but it sounds like he is crying out for help by making off-hand comments about taking too many sleeping tablets. He wants someone to help him. You mention you are in college so I imagine you are quite young and probably have a lot going on yourself. This is a big burden for young shoulders. Is your mother around? If so, she needs to talk to a good doctor about getting help for your Dad. If she can't, then someone else (maybe you) should urgently take charge on this.

billybudd

Suicide in general is not a spur of the moment thing, its years of mental or physical torture that is sadly neglected by society and sadly continuous goverment, there is a real cold mentality to mental illness in this country and with out private funded organisations such as www.aware.ie then the rate would be much higher.

Shame on us and the government we elect for the neglect, it is abuse in itself.

If your pet was sick and you neglected it you would be rightfully prosecuted and yet we ignore people with mental sickness and pass them off as outcasts/weirdos/loners etc etc etc.

The Master.

Depression is a terrible thing. it can sometimes take ages to snap out of.

Promac

The Master. wrote: »

Depression is a terrible thing. it can sometimes take ages to snap out of.

Is that a joke?

closing_bell

Promac wrote: »

I'm 36 and male and have been living with depression since my early teens. I lived in Ireland most my life (north and south), I lived in Europe for years and now I live in NZ and I can honestly say that everywhere I've been outside Ireland has been a far more pleasant place to be. Ireland has it's charms and it's a crackin place to visit but I never want to live there again. And don't imply from that that I'm saying Ireland is the worst place to live - far from it.

There are various reasons why Ireland is horrible but I'm not gonna do a "your place versus my place" argument. If you have a good life and little to complain about then Ireland could be a grand place to live, as I'm sure it is for most, but if you have to deal with depression too then it's horrible (in my experience) and people have already covered most of the reasons why in this thread. Living somewhere with a better quality of life, people that are happier in general and more positive overall and being in a place where the sun shines most days rather than the opposite is just something that makes dealing with depression a lot easier.

I find it interesting that you can't see why NZ would be better for weather or scenery though - did you come here in winter and only visit Greymouth? This is a beautiful country and gets the same kinda weather as parts of Spain. Might be better to start a new thread for that one though!

i would dispute the notion that ireland is a worse place to live on any level than new zealand if you exclude the weather , new zealand is a pretty dour place where one could easily find themselves living in an area much more isolated than anywhere in ireland , new zealand has a pretty high suicide rate itself

quickbeam

It's all well and good saying people should talk to somebody about their problems. That isn't always possible or helpful. It annoys me hearing people suggest this like it will solve all problems. If only it were that easy.

Not everybody has a close trusted friend or a loving non-judgemental family. And counselling doesn't work for everybody either (believe me, I've tried all avenues that are recommended). From my own experience I'll admit that I don't have depression as bad as some, but there are certainly days when I would have suicidal thoughts.

A lot of focus seems to be given to men in these situations and that's fine as it does seem to be mostly men killing themselves, but a little thought towards women wouldn't go amiss too. The Men's Sheds are a great idea. I'd love if there was something similar for women.

Rackstar

I have to say that I have become much more aware of suicide recently. It really makes you think, you don't know what's going through people's minds. What they are dealing with. It's made me take a step back and be a better person, I would think more about my actions and try to be a better person to people. Friends, strangers everyone.

closing_bell

quickbeam wrote: »

It's all well and good saying people should talk to somebody about their problems. That isn't always possible or helpful. It annoys me hearing people suggest this like it will solve all problems. If only it were that easy.

Not everybody has a close trusted friend or a loving non-judgemental family. And counselling doesn't work for everybody either (believe me, I've tried all avenues that are recommended). From my own experience I'll admit that I don't have depression as bad as some, but there are certainly days when I would have suicidal thoughts.

A lot of focus seems to be given to men in these situations and that's fine as it does seem to be mostly men killing themselves, but a little thought towards women wouldn't go amiss too. The Men's Sheds are a great idea. I'd love if there was something similar for women.

women have any number of support outlets for any number of issues nowasdays , the issue of suicide is overwhelmingly a male issue , no need to refer to suicide amongst women for the sake of equality

excellent post otherwise

Musefan

What I would recommend if anyone is interested, is to try a SafeTalk course. It is only three hours of your life but it gives you the tools to approach the subject with someone you feel might be thinking of ending their life. It also teaches you to identify those at risk from suicide from the behaviours the exhibit.

The majority of people give out small invitations or indications that they may be feeling suicidal. Remember these can be as obvious as self-harming, depression, referring to ending life. They can be other things like suddenly giving possessions away or suddenly becoming very happy after a period of being very down (often because they think the have found the solution to the problem through suicide). Visiting family members out of the blue can often be another indication.

http://www.nosp.ie/html/asist.html gives contact details of course facilitators. As a mental health professional (albeit a novice one!), who works with people who have attempted suicide, I feel like a broken record sometimes hijacking threads like these in order to post a help-line number, links to mental health resources etc. But you never know who is reading this, and what they are thinking.

My biggest regret in life is letting an elderly man who sat beside me on the bus, get off the bus without me. He had just told me that he was very down and felt like jumping in the Liffey. I could have handled the situation so much better. In the moment I had said that since he had already mentioned how nice the weather was, that there was obviously still a part of him which saw some beauty in the world. I would hate to think anyone would be in the same position as me and not know what to do, because the regret of thinking I could have done better, I could have said something more helpful & I could have just got off the bus to get this man to a safe space, will never leave me.

Promac

closing_bell wrote: »

i would dispute the notion that ireland is a worse place to live on any level than new zealand if you exclude the weather , new zealand is a pretty dour place where one could easily find themselves living in an area much more isolated than anywhere in ireland , new zealand has a pretty high suicide rate itself

Are you mad? New Zealand is like feckin paradise compared to Ireland. Unless you're living in Greymouth or somewhere I can't imagine how you'd see New Zealand as dour...

666irishguy

From my own personal experience of being a 25 year old male, I think the drink culture has a big part to play in suicide rates in Ireland. I honestly think half the country is walking around drained physically and mentally from the weekend before. After seeing several friends battle with depression and drinking and perhaps feeling myself slipping into the same trap, I decided to cut down on my own intake. The one thing I notice now above all others when I wake up from the odd night out is how different or variable my mood is well after the hangover has passed. If I go out on a Saturday night, it is Tuesday or Wednesday before I feel 100% mentally and sometimes physically fit again.

cloud493

I think counseling is a very marmite thing, either it works or it doesn't. It can take time of course, and it does depend on how receptive the person receiving the counseling is. But, it isn't for everyone.

mauzo

In my own experience as a 21 year old female, the help lines etc are useless. Hopefully they help some people, but they have never helped me.

My own coping mechanism is to just get on with it. I've been depressed for years, I put it down to my childhood, child abuse, growing up in foster care plus an abusive relationship. Been on tablets for years now and they aren't helping much either.

I was ignoring it for a long time, thought that would work, grin and bear it so to speak, but I knew two people my age who had also grown up in the same situation as me, both males..and they took their own lives this year.

Scary thought, we all went through the same things, with one exception being rape.

And now they are gone, I don't know if its my ability to ignore it better, or them not being able to talk to anyone about what they were going through. But its terrifying, like we were each others strength and now they are gone.

Anyway, sometimes somebody just can't see a way out, and nothing you can say can help them. I always thought it was a selfish act, but once you're in that place it just feels like its the only option.

billybudd

mauzo wrote: »

In my own experience as a 21 year old female, the help lines etc are useless. Hopefully they help some people, but they have never helped me.

My own coping mechanism is to just get on with it. I've been depressed for years, I put it down to my childhood, child abuse, growing up in foster care plus an abusive relationship. Been on tablets for years now and they aren't helping much either.

I was ignoring it for a long time, thought that would work, grin and bear it so to speak, but I knew two people my age who had also grown up in the same situation as me, both males..and they took their own lives this year.

Scary thought, we all went through the same things, with one exception being rape.

And now they are gone, I don't know if its my ability to ignore it better, or them not being able to talk to anyone about what they were going through. But its terrifying, like we were each others strength and now they are gone.

Anyway, sometimes somebody just can't see a way out, and nothing you can say can help them. I always thought it was a selfish act, but once you're in that place it just feels like its the only option.

I have a friend whose both parents committed suicide and his sister suffers chronic depression, so everyday he seeks out something new and positive in life and this works for him.

Andy!!

closing_bell wrote: »

i would dispute the notion that ireland is a worse place to live on any level than new zealand if you exclude the weather , new zealand is a pretty dour place where one could easily find themselves living in an area much more isolated than anywhere in ireland , new zealand has a pretty high suicide rate itself

Ever lived in NZ? Well then.

I agree with him. Ireland is a ****hole and getting out helped me a lot too. Im in asia so not so far from NZ and we get the bad weather and isolated areas too but its not about that. You think people kill themselves over a bit of rain?

flyswatter

mauzo wrote: »

In my own experience as a 21 year old female, the help lines etc are useless. Hopefully they help some people, but they have never helped me.

My own coping mechanism is to just get on with it. I've been depressed for years, I put it down to my childhood, child abuse, growing up in foster care plus an abusive relationship. Been on tablets for years now and they aren't helping much either.

I was ignoring it for a long time, thought that would work, grin and bear it so to speak, but I knew two people my age who had also grown up in the same situation as me, both males..and they took their own lives this year.

Scary thought, we all went through the same things, with one exception being rape.

And now they are gone, I don't know if its my ability to ignore it better, or them not being able to talk to anyone about what they were going through. But its terrifying, like we were each others strength and now they are gone.

Anyway, sometimes somebody just can't see a way out, and nothing you can say can help them. I always thought it was a selfish act, but once you're in that place it just feels like its the only option.

As for the phonelines, the ability to release what's on your mind is worthwhile if anything else.

KyussBishop

I think people need to be better directed to existing avenues of help; if anyone relies on the public health services for mental health support, they are (from what I hear) often going to be disappointed and let down, but there are really good places out there where you can get good support.

People going through issues, whatever they are, need to go out and seek support for them from good mental health services, usually private counseling/psychs (and there are many different types of counseling, some better than others, some just 'different' and maybe suiting you better personally); there's a stigma still attached to it to some extent I think, but people really shouldn't view it as all that different to going to a regular appointment for a physical condition or such (even if it may be much more long-term/pervasive than that).


Any stigma around this stuff needs to be destroyed basically, because it stops people seeking help, can take years from peoples lives before they seek help, and for those unfortunate enough to never get help or receive bad/inadequate help, they can end up taking their lives; in my case, I've had long term issues with anxiety that have certainly taken (and continue to take) a lot of years from my life, but which I've been getting help with now for a time, and it's making a difference.

Mental health issues are an entire class of health problems, which (throughout the world) do not get proper attention and acceptance, either in help provided or in acceptance/understanding in society, and it's a big thing that needs to change and that people need to be far better educated about, regularly, and at an early age (as a lot of these issues develop, and can be nipped in the bud, during adolescence).


It's also worth recognizing as well, how many of these problems can be rooted in deeper societal issues as well, and the thread on Erin Gallagher had some good discussion on this, regarding the much wider issue of bullying in school (varieties of which, going back decades, I'm sure are a source for many peoples problems).


Again another thing that will be with the country for a time, is the issue of unemployment and lack of prospects in the short/medium-term for many, and the serious damage that can cause to mental health in society; most discussion regarding unemployment is usually in abstract terms as a mechanical economic variable, which does not properly emphasize the serious damaging effect it has on society.

Not to get too much into economics, but there is no principle reason why a government in control of its own currency (which we are unfortunately not), cannot provide jobs for people when unemployment rises, and guarantee full employment; right now we are trading potential (possibly very minor) damage from inflation, if any, for the more insidious societal damage unemployment (and the mental health effects of that) brings, which will stay with us for a long time to come, well past the end of economic problems.

Autonomous Cowherd

666irishguy wrote: »

From my own personal experience of being a 25 year old male, I think the drink culture has a big part to play in suicide rates in Ireland. I honestly think half the country is walking around drained physically and mentally from the weekend before. After seeing several friends battle with depression and drinking and perhaps feeling myself slipping into the same trap, I decided to cut down on my own intake. The one thing I notice now above all others when I wake up from the odd night out is how different or variable my mood is well after the hangover has passed. If I go out on a Saturday night, it is Tuesday or Wednesday before I feel 100% mentally and sometimes physically fit again.

I have to say I agree with this view as a general point, never mind just in relation to the suicide problem. I haven't drank for years, never really did, but I am always struck by the poor mental state of a good deal of people in the wake of the weekend. In fact the local village has a general air of malaise about it until about Wednesday when people begin to shake off the depression caused by the weekend's overindulgence (and look forward to the next weekend's upcoming wipe-out). I think the psychoactive drug ethanol has a lot to answer for in this society....

NinjaK

666irishguy wrote: »

From my own personal experience of being a 25 year old male, I think the drink culture has a big part to play in suicide rates in Ireland. I honestly think half the country is walking around drained physically and mentally from the weekend before. After seeing several friends battle with depression and drinking and perhaps feeling myself slipping into the same trap, I decided to cut down on my own intake. The one thing I notice now above all others when I wake up from the odd night out is how different or variable my mood is well after the hangover has passed. If I go out on a Saturday night, it is Tuesday or Wednesday before I feel 100% mentally and sometimes physically fit again.

Alcohol messes with your brains chemistry, its no surprise that so many people get depression, its a depressant after all!