"Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them"

RedRunner

RunningKing wrote: »

Never seen such a 1 sided game!

It was very like the U10s game I watched this morning in that regard. I would worry for Westmeath next season in Div1 based on that performance!

Dublin weren't even in top gear for a lot of the game. Next game will be a better test but I believe Kildare were less than impressive against Offaly.

tang1

RunningKing wrote: »

Never seen such a 1 sided game!

For fear of getting abuse, as a Westmeath man, jaysus we were sh!te!! Bloody hand passing is ruining football. Stick yer feckin boot to it, its called 'FOOTBALL'.

RedRunner

tang1 wrote: »

For fear of getting abuse, as a Westmeath man, jaysus we were sh!te!! Bloody hand passing is ruining football. Stick yer feckin boot to it, its called 'FOOTBALL'.

Agree 100% ....hate the handpassing down the pitch lark.Much prefer the skill of a good foot pass and when done right, it's much more effective.

RunningKing

Jesus Tang, your lot were rubbish.
Only positive thing for WM was you only let in 1 goal.

tang1

They were complete muck, hate to have seen what Dublin would have done to them if they got out of 3rd gear. As Red said they will be heading straight back to division 2 next year. Only thing i fear about Dublin is they wont face a serious test till they get out of Leinster.

RedRunner

Sunday 2nd June

Sunday morning club run.Perfect conditions but was beginning to get very warm towards the end.

9.77 miles @8:34avg

One of these days I'll follow advice and STFD! Enjoyed the run and no problems to report.Plenty of stretching afterwards.

WTD|24.83
MTD|12.23
YTD|424.55

RedRunner

Monthly Weigh-In

Starting Weight Jan '13|15 St 7 lbs/98.4Kg
Last Month|15 St 1lbs/95.9Kg
This Month| 15 St 1.4 lb/96.1Kg
Target DCM '13|14St 10lbs/93.4Kg

Slightly up on last month but surprised it's not by more as my mileage was low due to injury and my voracious sweet tooth had a field day. Goal is to to break into the 14St territory this month.

RedRunner

Originally planned to rest today but it was so nice out so thought a recovery run might be a good idea. Ended up an easy run.

4 miles easy @8:32avg



WTD|4
MTD|16.23
YTD|428.55

RedRunner

Ran home from work today. Wasn't really looking forward to it as I felt fatigued all day since I got up this morning so wasn't sure how this one would go. Not sure why I was fatigued, can't be from running as mileage has been light enough recently.

Run went ok in the end.Took it handy and was comfortable enough. I'm find that my easy runs seem to be settling in or around 8.30 pace at the moment which interestingly enough is my target MP for 3:45.

The funny thing also is that I felt less fatigued after the run than I did before it. Funny how our bodies work

6.77miles @8:37avg

Plan for rest of week:

Wed- Rest with some stretching and foam rolling
Thu - 4 mile race
Fri - Easy Run - 5 miles
Sat - Easy Run - 4 miles
Sun - LSR 12 miles

WTD|10.77
MTD|23
YTD|435.32

RedRunner

Wednesday 5th June

20 mins easy (10km) on the exercise bike followed by 20 mins stretching and foam rolling. I'm such a wuss with that foam roller. Need to HTFU a bit and use it more!

RedRunner

Thursday 6th June

AXA 4 mile Race-Raheny

This is an annual event run mostly by AXA employees and others probably but club members are free to run in it. Was a bit nervouse about this as I was afraid of my life that the hamstrings would give in because this is the first time I've raced in a few weeks. I use the term raced very loosely btw , lets just call it a hard session;). Because of my nervousness I was keen to make sure the muscles were well warmed up so drove to Raheny early and went off on a warm up run.

2.62 miles@9:40avg

Went off then to register and get my number. A snip at €5. Then jogged down to the start and did some more stretching. Only saw one or two that I knew from club so felt a little bit like a stranger at a party as the rest were mostly AXA employees but it was grand.I wasn't there to make friends I was there to get down to business:p But seriously ...there was a guy there that was around the same level as me and we have had some good battles so I was hoping to finish ahead of him and get through it in on piece.

Race starts anyway and we get into a healthy pace quite quickly,probably too fast but after a few hundred metres I was already passing out some people who had probably in error too had gone out even faster that I did. After another few hundred metres I found myself on my own in no man's land.There was a guy in red ahead of me about 40 metres or so and I was just trying to keep him in sight. Tried to get myself in a decent rhythm at this stage while not slowing down too much. So at mile two felt like I was going at a good pace but not too fast. By the third mile admittedly I was tiring but if the race was more important I probably could have put more effort in but there was no way I was going to injure myself and put myself out of action again for another week or two so ran the last mile and a half or so fairly conservatively while keeping a reasonable pace going. A couple of guys passed me about the 2.5 mile mark but apart from that I was still on my ownio.

Got to the last turn which left an uphill section to the finish line and decided that I would just try keep the same pace and not do anything silly like try and do a sprint finish. I couldn't catch anyone in front and there was nobody right behind me so there was no incentive there either. Finished in reasonable shape in 26:59 by my watch. Distance was short of 4 miles though (3.73 according to Garmin).

3.73 miles @7:14avg

Splits : 6:48:eek:,7:00,7:35,(7:42)

Was very warm and I sweat bucket loads but was very happy to get through this one unscathed and it was a really good session for me. Did a short cool down afterwards by running back to clubhouse a roundabout way and then enjoyed a nice cup of tea with some jaffa cakes.(I won't say how many!)

0.85 miles @10:03

bringing the evening total to 7.2 miles

WTD|17.97
MTD|30.2
YTD|442.52

RedRunner

Friday 7th June

Nada. had to work through lunch today so didnt get to eat at all since breakfast.So was starvin when I got home and OH was going out so gave the legs a rest.

Saturday 8th June

Had to get up early for this one as I was helping out at sons' club footbanll blitz today.I was manager of Argentina. Like in so many major tournaments Argentina went in as one of the favourites but failed to deliver when it mattered!:rolleyes::rolleyes: Enjoyable day though and now suitably burnt after being standing around in sun for so long

Anyway..the run!

5.54 miles @8:58avg

Glad I was able to slow down the pace a bit as advised by Meno et al on another thread.


WTD|23.51
MTD|35.74
YTD|448.06

RunningKing

Argentinian managers are always mad!

RedRunner

RunningKing wrote: »

Argentinian managers are always mad!

So mad they've just signed up for DCM and stated finish time of faster than 3:50!:eek:

RedRunner

Went for early Sunday morning run with club. lashed on the suncream. Between the suncream and deep heat(lwr Back a little bit sore) I smelled just divine:)
Was determined not to follow the group if they were going too fast so stuck to my guns to try an keep it in the nines and it was grand as there was another girl there happy enough to keep to this pace so I had some company and one of the guys who ran CCM last weekend dropped back to us for the last part too.
Not quite as slow as I might have wanted (aiming for 9:15) but at least it was over the 9 mins avg mark. The group I was with finished up at 10 miles so I went off to do another little nearby loop to make up the 12 that I wanted to do.

12.21miles @ 9:03avg

Splits: 9:29,8:54,9:05,9:02,8:46,8:59,9;07,9:06,9:02,9:16,9:18,8:43,(7:58)

A good weeks work for me. Now just need to consistently do this.


WTD|35.72
MTD|47.95
YTD|460.27

HelenAnne

Well done! I did 12.88 in the Phoenix Park this morning instead. It was so hot! & well done for signing up for the marathon. Exciting!

I actually meant to ask a question the last time we were running together, and I am reminded now seeing you referring to slowing down. I know people say run your long runs slow, but how slow is slow? I'm always concerned that maybe I'm doing it wrong because on the novices thread etc the message is always 'slow down, slow down'. I was telling you that I'm really incompetent at pacing, and that I don't use my watch, but if I can chat the whole way and know I'm running at a pace that I can comfortably finish the ten or thirteen or whatever in, is that OK, or is it meant to feel noticeably slow?

RunningKing

1.5-2 mins slower than Marathon pace is what is guided. The talk test is usually a good sign, seems like you're doing that fine!
Btw, well done on 12.88 today, it was a warm one!

RedRunner

HelenAnne wrote: »

Well done! I did 12.88 in the Phoenix Park this morning instead. It was so hot! & well done for signing up for the marathon. Exciting!

I actually meant to ask a question the last time we were running together, and I am reminded now seeing you referring to slowing down. I know people say run your long runs slow, but how slow is slow? I'm always concerned that maybe I'm doing it wrong because on the novices thread etc the message is always 'slow down, slow down'. I was telling you that I'm really incompetent at pacing, and that I don't use my watch, but if I can chat the whole way and know I'm running at a pace that I can comfortably finish the ten or thirteen or whatever in, is that OK, or is it meant to feel noticeably slow?

Hi Helen, thanks .Good to see you got a long one in this morning too.Maybe you'll sign up for marathon too? Go on ...you know you want to;)

With regard to above, well it's all relative of course as each person's fast and slow is different and probably depends too on what you are training for. If you are training specifically for a marathon then that slow is probably different to what your slow might be if you are training for a shorter distance. (Step in here anyone who wants to!)

If say you plugged your Ballycotton 10 time or a recent HM time into macmillan pace calculator this will give you approximate paces for the different types of runs including LSRs depending on your target race distance too.http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/
Generally speaking your LSR should be 45-60secs per mile slower than your target marathon pace(if you are training for a marathon). I found it difficult to interpret this at times particularly for easy runs as the range can be quite big though and interesting had an interesting discussion about that over here:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056825673&page=31

I think for it to be a genuine LSR you really need to feel that you are slowing down, I could be wrong though. The most difficult thing for me to understand so far is when will you know that you should be changing your training paces, I'm assuming it is by plugging in more recent race times into macmillan and recalculating?? but if your times are improving because of training, when is the right time to change your training pace?? As I'm typing this I feel like I'm raising more questions than answering so sorry about that!

Hope some of that helps and maybe some of the more experienced guys/gals who drop in here could offer some advice too.

HelenAnne

RedRunner wrote: »

If say you plugged your Ballycotton 10 time or a recent HM time into macmillan pace calculator this will give you approximate paces for the different types of runs including LSRs depending on your target race distance too.http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/
Generally speaking your LSR should be 45-60secs per mile slower than your target marathon pace(if you are training for a marathon). I found it difficult to interpret this at times particularly for easy runs as the range can be quite big though and interesting had an interesting discussion about that over here:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056825673&page=31

thank you. it sounds like I might have to at some time look at my watch ... oh the hassle!

Well, I did the Macmillan thing & it gives me a long run range of 7.55-9.18, so that's probably fine! Thanks again!

menoscemo

RunningKing wrote: »

1.5-2 mins slower than Marathon pace is what is guided. The talk test is usually a good sign, seems like you're doing that fine!
Btw, well done on 12.88 today, it was a warm one!

The problem with this is that that is totally different depending on your marathon pace. For someone who has an MP of 5 min/mile: 1 min/mile slower is 20% slower than MP. 2 min/mile is 40% slower.

Now for someone whose MP is 10 min/mile. 1 min/mile slower than MP is only 10% and 2min/mile is 20%!!

I think an ideal slow LSR pace is anywhere between 10-20% slower than MP, certainly it should be no faster than 10% slower otherwise it becomes more of a steady run. However not all Long runs need to be slow: some can be steady and others should contain some MP (or faster) miles- it depends on your training plan.

Just to add confusion to the whole debate, for first time and relative 'novice' marathon runners MP is not clear cut. 5-10k times, even HM times might tell a runner that a certain arbitary pace (lets say 9 min/mile) is a good LSR pace based on the above rules, yet they will struggle to hold that over a marathon and face a 'blow up' over the last 10k. In reality 9 min/mile may become their actual MP, when in theory 8 min/mile should be their actual Mp based on other results, what to do then? Well the answer (IMO) is more long runs and more general miles to build endurance and the slower the better to allow the body to recover.

RunningKing

Thanks for clearing that up, Meno.

RedRunner

HelenAnne wrote: »

thank you. it sounds like I might have to at some time look at my watch ... oh the hassle!

Well, I did the Macmillan thing & it gives me a long run range of 7.55-9.18, so that's probably fine! Thanks again!

Then based on our recent run you are probably going at the right pace, unless I was slowing you down that day

My LSR pace by macmillan is currently 8:27-9:45 and easy is 8:23 - 9:24

menoscemo

RunningKing wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up, Meno.

none of the above are hard and cold facts, just my opinion!!

RedRunner

Cheers Meno. So would you consider my run this morning to be a steady LSR or a slow one? The paces I mention above;
My LSR pace by macmillan is currently 8:27-9:45 and easy is 8:23 - 9:24
are based on my HM in March.

menoscemo

RedRunner wrote: »

Cheers Meno. So would you consider my run this morning to be a steady LSR or a slow one? The paces I mention above;
My LSR pace by macmillan is currently 8:27-9:45 and easy is 8:23 - 9:24
are based on my HM in March.

It sounds fine based on that. The point is you should never be afraid to run your LSRs too slow because you can't possibly do that; the only mistake you can make is to run them too fast.

Are you worried because it is less than 10% slower than PMP? Maybe we just have to change your PMP?

RedRunner

menoscemo wrote: »

Are you worried because it is less than 10% slower than PMP? Maybe we just have to change your PMP?

Just want to make sure not doing the LSR too fast as it is easy to do it when running out with club group. maybe I should do these on my own?

I think my PMP is ambitious enough as it is thank you very much!

menoscemo

RedRunner wrote: »

Just want to make sure not doing the LSR too fast as it is easy to do it when running out with club group.

I'd never find doing a long run too fast to be easy.....

I think err on the side of caution and make sure to do the Long run for now with the slower group. I would be reluctant to tell you to do the LSR alone as that can be really boring and take the whole enjoyment out of running.

HelenAnne

menoscemo wrote: »

... more long runs and more general miles to build endurance and the slower the better to allow the body to recover.

Thanks again, Meno, I think this probably answers my other question, which is 'why do them slow?' Is it to allow you to build endurance, avoid injury and recover OK?

I'm rarely exhausted after a long run (I was actually pretty exhausted yesterday, but I think that was the heat as the pace was slow), and I'm not injured so I'm probably doing them slow enough.
Thanks, everyone, and sorry for hijacking your thread Robbie. See you at the race tomorrow, but I'm going to the physio before it, and being dry needled, so i think I'll be hobbling around the course!

menoscemo

HelenAnne wrote: »

Thanks again, Meno, I think this probably answers my other question, which is 'why do them slow?' Is it to allow you to build endurance, avoid injury and recover OK?

Well why do them fast? Just because you can do 10k in x time (in a race) does that mean you just go and do it is as fast as you can everytime you run 10k?
If no, then why would it be any different for a 20 mile run?

Basically I think that when moving up the distance of the LSR it is of vital importance to teach the body to cover the distance comfortably first and foremost. If you find you are slowing down or struggling towards the end of the run then you are have went out too fast.
There is a time and a place for running long runs at pace, but only after you have covered the distance comfortably a few times at a slow pace.

HelenAnne

I've probably given a false impression of myself - I definitely don't do them fast at all, and because I'm taking it easy I can keep going at a pretty even pace till the end. I was just concerned that maybe I should be doing my Sunday long runs at a pace that felt very, very slow, rather than easy. When I run with RedRunner he always keeps a close eye on pace on his watch & I never do that, so I was a bit worried that I wasn't getting the most out of my training.

I'm certainly not going out at race pace every time - I'd say taking it too easy would be more my problem!

Generally, I push the pace a bit if I'm doing four or five miles at lunch time and I want to get back to eat within my lunch hour, and sometimes I'd go out for anything from 6-10 miles with faster club mates to push myself a bit, but the rest of the time I'm just trotting along.

Thanks again.