Limerick city has highest % of vacant units of all Irish cities

Solair

Cityslicker1 wrote: »

Limerick doesn't include places like Annacotty, Castleconnell, Patrickswell, Parteen, Mungret, Clarina, Cratloe, Clonara, Ardnacrusha, Meelick etc. I know Corks population is bigger but there isn't much difference between the size of the city centres.

Yeah, they both cover about 37km2 - However, the issue is more that unless Limerick can do something to increase footfall in the city centre, investors just won't invest in retail and it becomes a vicious cycle. The less retail you have, the fewer people come into town and the less attractive it is for retail investors.

The other issue in Limerick is that the Georgian buildings are not really suitable (at present) for retail. They are Georgian townhouses. Dublin's equivalents (at least on the southside) are used largely as office space. There wouldn't really be sufficient businesses in Limerick of that nature to fill those buildings.

Cork on the other hand has a lot of Georgian era architecture too, but it's not town houses. Its city centre is mostly Georgian, Victorian and 20th century purpose-built retail space and warehousing with some nice 21st century bits too like Opera Lane.

Cork's central island is basically a very densely packed shopping district, with quirky winding streets with a little bit of that vibe spilling over the river onto Mc Curtain Street.

There are examples of where Georgian townhouses have been converted to retail space in other cities in England and where colonial buildings in New England of similar style have been used as retail.

I think that's one of the major issues in Limerick that could be addressed. You'd need to look at how those buildings could be tastefully used for more retail / cafe / dining space as they are not really doing the city much good as crummy run-down offices and flats.

Take a look at Boston's Newbury Street for example. That's something that could be achieved in Limerick and parts of Dublin to revitalise old Georgian areas.

http://www.visitingnewengland.com/PageMill_Resources/newbury-street-boston-brownstones.jpg

http://www.celebrateboston.com/photo/newbury-street/ecco.jpg

I realise that Boston is MASSIVELY bigger than Limerick, but even on a small scale e.g. converting a block of houses on one street could spark a major revival.

Cityslicker1

Solair wrote: »

Yeah, they both cover about 37km2 - However, the issue is more that unless Limerick can do something to increase footfall in the city centre, investors just won't invest in retail and it becomes a vicious cycle. The less retail you have, the fewer people come into town and the less attractive it is for retail investors.

The other issue in Limerick is that the Georgian buildings are not really suitable (at present) for retail. They are Georgian townhouses. Dublin's equivalents (at least on the southside) are used largely as office space. There wouldn't really be sufficient businesses in Limerick of that nature to fill those buildings.

Cork on the other hand has a lot of Georgian era architecture too, but it's not town houses. Its city centre is mostly Georgian, Victorian and 20th century purpose-built retail space and warehousing with some nice 21st century bits too like Opera Lane.

There are examples of where Georgian townhouses have been converted to retail space in other cities in England and where colonial buildings in New England of similar style have been used as retail.

I think that's one of the major issues in Limerick that could be addressed. You'd need to look at how those buildings could be tastefully used for more retail / cafe / dining space as they are not really doing the city much good as crummy run-down offices and flats.

I agree, the Georgian streets in Limerick are not suitable for retail and they weren't built for that purpose. I think if they were maintained they would provide more of a tourist attraction for people to see fine examples of Georgian architecture in Ireland. I think a lot of the reason why the retail core of the city centre seems a bit soulless and lacking in charachter is due to the 60's buildings that were thrown up replacing some of the iconic buildings that were in Limerick. An example of this is the current Penny's building (Previously Cannocks, I have attached an image below) which was once a fantastic building but unfortunately was destroyed and replaced to what stands today. Another example is Brown Thomas which again was another ornate building destroyed in 1959 and replaced with whats there today. It's hard to believe that the image below was once how Limerick was.

ZombieBride

Cityslicker1 wrote: »

I was in Edinburgh, one of Europe's most tourist cities and the second most visited city in the UK a few weeks ago. I was approached many times by homeless beggars looking for money. I came across them on the Champs-Elysees in Paris too. Beggars are part of most city life. I agree that they are not the most pleasant feature of any city centre but a few tramps on O'Connell street are not the cause of Limericks problems.

They are when they out number everyone else.

Cityslicker1

Limerick had some fantastic buildings (I have attached some pictures of lost building in Limerick below) before many of them were replaced by 60's architecture which in my opinion are ugly and do nothing for the city centre.

ZombieBride

Yes those building were pretty but they were also about 200 years old, damp and unsafe. There are still some fantastic buildings in the city centre, just look up while walking up William street, the old police station is one example, if only they cleaned it.
That goes for the whole city, it needs a good scrub, paint, and tiding up (like the to let signs). That would go along way to improve the first impressions. I would personally like to see less taxi ranks, and more police foot patrols.
Maintenance is what we are lacking in the city.

Cityslicker1

ZombieBride wrote: »

Yes those building were pretty but they were also about 200 years old, damp and unsafe. There are still some fantastic buildings in the city centre, just look up while walking up William street, the old police station is one example, if only they cleaned it.
That goes for the whole city, it needs a good scrub, paint, and tiding up (like the to let signs). That would go along way to improve the first impressions. I would personally like to see less taxi ranks, and more police foot patrols.
Maintenance is what we are lacking in the city.

Those building weren't destroyed because they were too old or unsafe. They were gutted because of fires so they decided to remove the facades and replace them with the horrors that stand today. Unfortunately most of the really impressive grand building that existed in the city centre are gone. What adds to Corks charm is the old ornate buildings that still remain in the city centre and that goes for most cities. The Brown Thomas building in Cork is a fine building, now imagine replacing it with the current Brown Thomas building in Limerick, it would make a huge difference. William street has some great buildings on the left side going up the street which are about the only ornate buildings along with Ormston House on Patrick street in the retail area left. The right side of Lower William street is all 60's architecture which makes the area charmless in my opinion. Brown Thomas should really sort out the facade of that building as it's literally in the centre of the city.

ZombieBride

Cityslicker1 wrote: »

Those building weren't destroyed because they were too old or unsafe. They were gutted because of fires so they decided to remove the facades and replace them with the horrors that stand today.

Surely if they were damaged by fire that would mean they were unsafe.

This is much of a muchness though as the buildings are gone and we can only build from the present onwards and not imagine the what might have beens.

Cityslicker1

Look at the difference between Brown Thomas in Cork compared to Limerick..bit of a difference....

Cityslicker1

ZombieBride wrote: »

Surely if they were damaged by fire that would mean they were unsafe.

This is much of a muchness though as the buildings are gone and we can only build from the present onwards and not imagine the what might have beens.

The facades could have been restored...the 60's architecture makes the city centre ugly and soulless resulting in the city having no character!

ZombieBride

Coulda Woulda Shoulda... but they are gone 50 years now, time to let it go.

Cityslicker1

ZombieBride wrote: »

Coulda Woulda Shoulda... but they are gone 50 years now, time to let it go.

They could always improve and remodel the 60's stuff that stands now and show interest and pride in their city ..having the attitude of letting it go is an attitude you see throughout Limerick threads unfortunately.

CHealy

Cityslicker1 wrote: »

Cork doesn't feel that much bigger than Limerick to me physically. The population is obviously larger but in saying that the Cork city population includes places like Mallow and Cobh which are well outside the city centre.

I'm not being funny or smart here, but I would genuinely love to know where you heard or read this information?

Cork faces the same problem, if not in a larger scale, of Limerick and city boundaries.

The city boundaries havnt been changed in Cork since the 50's or something ridiculous like that. Areas's such as Douglas, Mahon, Ballyvolane, which would all be some of Irelands biggest towns if out on their own are not taken into account. Parts of Knocknaheeny, Bishopstown, Wilton, Ballypheane, Togher etc etc are not included. And these are all urban centers, you can go from the city center to all these area's, and more, without seeing a field. I'm aware Limerick has the same problem.

The true population of urban Cork is approx. 210,000 and when you take in the outer suburbs of Glanmire, Ballincollig, Carragaline and Blarney, that shoots upto 274,000.

As for metropolitan Cork the previous page will show that in a post.

Same with Limerick, id imagine the true population of the city would be closer to 150,00.

Now to link this to the topic. When a company is looking at area's to invest in, it'll look at its population as a major factor, especially retail. Now lets says I wanted to look into setting up in Limerick, id see the population is down as something stupid like 54000 and say to myself, whats the point in setting up in what is a town.

Business lost.

The politics of the councils is single handedly ruining the major urban area's in this country, more specifically Limerick and Cork. The struggle of the backward, outdated and corrupt county councils laying claim to urban areas that should belong to city councils is turning businesses away, and needs to be changed asap.

Solair

It also has the effect of creating a donut of shopping centres around the city limits.

That's precisely why in Cork for example, all the shopping centre developments tend to be right on the city / county boundry (in urban areas like Douglas).

In Dublin it's basically all those shopping centres scattered around the M50 and Dundrum.

The rates revenue generated by those shops goes into the coffers of the county council, while the city's rates go into the city council.

The result is you end up with two competing retail spaces, the outer of which is probably a major drag on the sustainable development of the city itself.

The best solution forward would be a properly integrated local authority setup that recognises an actual metropolian area so you can plan for retail, transport etc on a sensible basis.

CHealy

Solair wrote: »

It also has the effect of creating a donut of shopping centres around the city limits.

That's precisely why in Cork for example, all the shopping centre developments tend to be right on the city / county boundry (in urban areas like Douglas).

In Dublin it's basically all those shopping centres scattered around the M50 and Dundrum.

The rates revenue generated by those shops goes into the coffers of the county council, while the city's rates go into the city council.

The result is you end up with two competing retail spaces, the outer of which is probably a major drag on the sustainable development of the city itself.

The best solution forward would be a properly integrated local authority setup that recognises an actual metropolian area so you can plan for retail, transport etc on a sensible basis.

Good point.

For whatever reason, with all the SC's in Cork (Mahon, Douglas, Wilton, Blackpool etc), the city center is still buzzing every day of the week.

Unfortunetly, I cant say the same for Limerick, any time iv been there which has been quiet alot recently, it is far from 'buzzing'.

In my personal opinion, I actually am not a fan of Georgian grid streets and the like. Anyone being serious will say that its pretty grim and its so so hard to create a street cafe/resturaunt atmosphere with it.

But what Limerick does have is a fantastic river front with a nice big river. But walking around there two weeks ago, it was nothing but pedestrian traffic with very little visual effort to make the place somewhere where people would fish out.

Another point that its just the way things happened aswell, Limerick is Georgian mostly, Cork is more European with nice bright buildings on narrow winding streets because it was built on a marsh. Just the way it panned out.

Solair

Well, I think the Cork City Council and retailers associations are really active about making the city a nice place to shop.

I think with somewhere like Limerick City you probably need to have some kind of a plan to take a single area, like the river front or the castle and just get the city council to focus on getting that area right first.

Then moving on to other areas bit by bit as the city improves.

I know a few people from Limerick and the one thing that I always find a bit odd is that they tend to disassociate themselves from the city a lot. I keep hearing things like how they 'actually live in Co Clare' or they'll tell you the townland / suburb they live in.

Perhaps it's a throw back to when the city had tenements etc and it has just never quite recovered. I always get that impression with the North side of Dublin's city centre too. While the Southside recovered, the north inner city never quite did.

Cork on the other hand has a very 'lived in' sense in the city centre. Galway's like that too (albeit a bit smaller). I mean, people are genuinely using it in a somewhat more continental way. The warren of narrow streets and the really big indoor food market (English market) really help that. It's also always packed with buskers and a bit of a sense of life.

It has a vibe of a living city to it. Where as I find perhaps the austere architecture in Limerick doesn't really help create that. Dublin probably has more of a mixture of the grand Georgian stuff mixed with squares and then has the quirkier more intense Cork-style shopping areas around Grafton Street etc.

Dublin also manages to use up most of those buildings as office space, and that tends to create a bit more life during the day where as I suspect that's not the case in Limerick.

That being said, a lot of Dublin's Georgian areas are pretty much like ghost streets at night. Nothing happening on them and you could nearly see tumble weed blowing down some of them.

nebusfan

It is interesting reading some of the comments,the thread is about shopping and how to improve it in Limerick and some are ranting on about which town is bigger,old news! If Limerick is to have a city centre manager they hopefully will look at what other towns do and try to replicate them or create some new ones,if they want to improve things,farmers markets,decent buskers,street entertainers and street festivals, all great it will need to be started by residents and carried on by them if they are to snowball and become a fixed event.All festivals started from humble beginnings.We have the Sunderland Airshow here and pop concerts at the Stadium of Light and that attracts thousands,indeed the Airshow nows attracts 1.5 million over the weekend and is the largest event of its kind in Europe.It was ridiculed at the beginning,especially by many residents!!!!

Limerick has problems,so does everywhere! if we concentrate on the scummy elements living in a city,about 2%,nothing will change - look instead at the 98% of decent and improve things for the majority.

Everywhere is different and all places have good things and bad things.It takes everyone to pull together and make things work.

I don't understand the structure of councils in Ireland,I know it is a lot to do with history but when you look at the size and population sizes of the main cities and I take Limerick for example,why have a city council authority and two county authorities around it with a total population of about 160,000. If you look at the total ie Limerick proper,plus Raheen/Dooradoyle and Shannon Banks/Westbury/Castletroy,why not join them together and make it into one city authority responsible for it's own affairs with harmonised services and a single planning and development framework. For example are the bus lanes built by the 2 county authorities which end at the city boundary. Where I live,my city population is 290,000 and is run now just by the city council(a unitary authority). It used to be ONE of a borough of the metropolitan council of Tyne and Wear with a population of 1.2 million. We have undergone major re-structureing of local government in the area over the last 30 years,not all wanted and sometimes painful and as a result most large towns have becone unitary,ie in charge of all their services or smaller towns in a county have joined an become a county unitary.What do all these small authorities do and cost?

Totally Tropical

Is it any wonder that people are giving town a miss.:rolleyes:

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/scammers-target-christmas-shoppers-in-limerick-1-4568296

nebusfan

and the garda!...busy harrassing the car drivers not paying and displaying? or just not interested.

Poxyshamrock

The week before Christmas and hardly any shops are open late.
It's no wonder people are going to the crescent.

langdang

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

The week before Christmas and hardly any shops are open late.
It's no wonder people are going to the crescent.

Yeah, was around last Thursday evening, knew I'd be waiting at least an hour for someone else. "No bother shur, thursday 3 weeks from Christmas, I might get some Christmas shopping done, shur there'll be plenty of stuff open"

HMV, Debenhams, Boots, BT (maybe, didn't venture but was told it was open) open after 6. Tumbleweed. Scary stuff this close to Christmas.

europa11

Totally Tropical wrote: »

Is it any wonder that people are giving town a miss.:rolleyes:

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/scammers-target-christmas-shoppers-in-limerick-1-4568296

Roma gang scam. Surprised (or maybe not really anymore) that the Leader didn't bother mentioning that.

Therefore hardly an exclusive phenomenon to Limerick. Who knows, maybe they'll be out on the doughnut ring next week. In any case that old trick of "forcing" a lollipop into peoples faces is to get them to raise their hands away from bags and purses, so beware.

Kess73

Galway on Sunday and again yesterday was mobbed with shoppers. The X- Mas market was also choc a bloc with people.

The difference between the city centre there on a week day and Limerick is depressing.

Today saw Cork city centre (and it was a quiet-ish day by Cork standards) have the kind of crowds that would make a "busy" saturday in Limerick city look dead. And on the same day that Cork city centre was busy, the out of town shopping centres at Mahon Point and Blackpool were both doing fine with loads of cars in the car parks.

Less than two weeks to X-Mas day and I bet Limerick city centre did not have bustling crowds filling the footpaths of the main street.

Ah but the various councillors will just continue to try and pin everything on the doughnut effect.