Newly Qualified Teachers Protest

coffee_cake

What's the obsession with "I'm entitled to a full time job"? Plenty of people get hired on part time work only. That's how it goes

evolving_doors

bluewolf wrote: »

What's the obsession with "I'm entitled to a full time job"? Plenty of people get hired on part time work only. That's how it goes

Would you have faith in a part time doctor/nurse/dentist/guard?

Who would you pick to teach your kids...

(A) a part time teacher who's been on half hours for ten years moving from school to school subbing and never been given higher level exam classes..

(B) Permanent teacher who's had a chance to build their skills.

Education is not the same as other careers in the private sector.

kincsem

Armelodie wrote: »

As a matter of interest what's your current pay? I think the same applies for people in the legal profession starting out, but when they are established I;m sure they don;t go hungry...

As regards allowances, it's a legacy issue that had become part of core pay..



Maybe parents drive...

I'd hazard a guess that your father is not a newly qualified teacher then... got full hours/full pension .. had a PROPER CAREER with normal contact time with pupils. His situation which you mention is moot as you're talking about teachers in the past... Do you think NQT's "generate extra income doing grinds, state exam supervision, and marking state exam papers"... not a hope.

I am retired. I was lucky to get early retirement on 1/2 pension at age 56. I paid 20% contributions for 15 years to get to that pension. The company closed two years later. One of the benefits of working there was three years without a pay increase during the Celtic Tiger in that loss-making company. My current pension is about half of a teacher's starting salary (and no annual increases.)

Parents do drive to the school on my road. When they drop off the children and leave, the car park is still full.

My father spent some years working around the country (Mayo, Monaghan, Louth) before he got a permanent position in the midlands in his early 30s. He died a few years ago.

evolving_doors

Japer wrote: »

As someone else said, protesting at not being paid enough (even though it's a fine wage, more than most people and a wage they could live comfortably on), is just whinging. Many teachers I know make a fortune on the side doing nixers like grinds, running summer sports courses etc. Not a loss on them.

Wake up, the protest was a sham,,, the Unions made a botch of it as some type of tokenism to teachers starting out...The real issue is teachers now applying for hours instead of a job..

take a look at educationposts.ie and look at the number of permanent jobs going (and consider that these jobs are already spoken for but the employer has to advertise).

Would you say to traffic warden to come into work 1 hour today 3 hours tomorrow and maybe I'll give you a ring if another few hours come up...could you live on these wages... Do you see what is happening.

evolving_doors

kincsem wrote: »

I am retired. I was lucky to get early retirement on 1/2 pension at age 56. I paid 20% contributions for 15 years to get to that pension. The company closed two years later. One of the benefits of working there was three years without a pay increase during the Celtic Tiger in that loss-making company. My current pension is about half of a teacher's starting salary (and no annual increases.)

You talk about "teachers starting salary" do you accept that only 5% of teachers are actually on this so called "starting salary".

kincsem wrote: »

Parents do drive to the school on my road. When they drop off the children and leave, the car park is still full.

I take your point so, teachers are getting paid too much and the evidence is that they drive cars... oh no we woldn;t want that now would we

kincsem wrote: »

My father spent some years working around the country (Mayo, Monaghan, Louth) before he got a permanent position in the midlands in his early 30s. He died a few years ago.

Now consider if your father was in his 40's and still not on full hours and still travelling around the country... nothing wrong with this then eh.

kincsem

Armelodie wrote: »

You talk about "teachers starting salary" do you accept that only 5% of teachers are actually on this so called "starting salary".

Please supply a link.

delta_bravo

kincsem wrote: »

I live on a cul-de-sac with a school at the top of the road. Since I moved here about 25 years ago I notice a big car park has been built in the school (primary school.) I guess the pupils don't drive. Perhaps the teachers are not so badly paid? .

Wow this is one of the most stupid arguments on this thread. Did all the cars have four tyres too? Overpaid wastrels the lot of them, next you'll be telling us the have radios in their car and other frivolous luxuries that are only the preserve of overpaid civil servants.

evolving_doors

kincsem wrote: »

Please supply a link.

Sorry meant 10% ...Here

Also given that salaries in other countries are being mentioned on this thread (not taking costs of living into account of course!!!)
"The 2008 OECD Teaching and Learning in Schools Study (TALIS) found that 73% of Irish second-level teachers are in permanent employment – one of the lowest figures in the OECD."

Now, given that that study was in 2008, and given the amount of hours that have been split from permanent retiring teachers and divvied up between two or more teachers (as is the practice), I'd estimate that that figure of 73% has definitely gone down.

Do you think it's ok to have teaching as a part-time profession? If so then fair enough, in the near future parents should have fun trying to keep track of who their children's 'current' teachers are...

canned_ulkc

I'm an NQT and I hope you'll forgive me for not reading most of what has been said so far. I didn't read it because it's predictable.

People will always look at these issues from their own point of view rather than an objective one. In order to be objective about this topic one must take a "swings and roundabouts" approach. I'll try to do that....

According to gradireland.ie graduate starting salaries are in the region of €24-26K. For teachers the starting salary is €30,702 (not €32K as quoted earlier in the thread).

Here's comes the swings and roundabouts.....
In the private sector, graduates tend to start a career on full time work, with a contract. NQT teachers don't. Since graduating in August I've had 2 weeks of work and one unsuccessful interview that was like a class reunion.
In the private sector a graduate will sign a 6-9 month contract if not more - a teacher will get "sure we'll ring you again if we need you" and you go home hoping someone will get sick... soon....
In the private sector you're unlikely to get solid job security. In teaching there is job security - once you've slogged for 5 or 6 years kissing ass and hoping to get a CID.
In the private sector your pay is linked to your performance. And so it should be in teaching - however, I have yet to see a model that could do this.
In the private sector, graduate salaries are being kept artificially low due to the prolific use and abuse of internship schemes.
In teaching you either do a degree which incorporates your education qualification or you do a 3 year post graduate teaching diploma - i.e. the idea that you go teaching after 3/4 years is BS - it's 4 or 7 years depending on the subject/route chosen.

Often people point at teachers' working hours (I can already imagine your eyes rolling). I can understand this perception to an extent however, this is often looked at in a certain way which means it draws more fire than deserved. Teachers are contracted to contact hours and expected to be prepared and deal with all there is around those contract hours in order to deliver the completeness of education that they should.
If you can't accept that preparation and assessments etc is time that should be paid for then you'd have to wonder about an architect's bill when they arrive on site for a few moments at key times of a house build. You could wonder why you're paying a structural engineer to do some math before just getting his hands dirty on some steelworks....

There is a lot more around the working hours thing obviously - a long summer, mid terms etc. But I ask you, is it education you're after or babysitting?

Now to make it subjective and maybe set some context of the above also.
I've worked in the private sector for 12+ years. I took a voluntary redundancy and went to college to do 4 years and now here I am. In the private sector I had a few jobs, one of which was unionised, all of which paid me more than the starting teaching salary despite being qualified to LC only.

It's a fact that having had this experience that I realise the worth of teaching. The responsibility of teaching is greater than what my responsibility was in the private sector and as such, I feel I deserve more than I earned in the private sector.

Now, the reality is that there are some very strange things happening in this country. For some reason the public have allowed themselves to be blinkered. The government has artfully driven a wedge between public and private sector allowing comments like "what are they complaining about" when the real comment should be "create some f*cking jobs and stop paying off unsecured bondholders - then stop these companies abusing so called internship programmes"

In saying all that, there is much about our education system I would love to see change. Much of which should be aimed at the taxpayer getting better value from our education system. I am not adverse to working more days in the year in order to do that either. In particular I think it very possible to do a better job than has been suggested in JC reform by adding just a couple of days to each teacher's work year for visiting other schools in an attempt to cross check results for JC program.

Much could be done if only the DES would actually engage with teachers. There was no consultation on the JC reform and look at the response that's getting from unions.

Mr.Opti

canned_ulkc wrote: »

It's a fact that having had this experience that I realise the worth of teaching. The responsibility of teaching is greater than what my responsibility was in the private sector and as such, I feel I deserve more than I earned in the private sector.

Thats subjective and you haven't mentioned what job you had. If your taking this as a category then Nurses, Gardai should be paid more. Structural engineers should be paid more because of the responsibility etc... So

steddyeddy

It is an important job and there are many hard working teachers; but I think the union can often be the worst enemy of the teachers.

kincsem

Thanks for the link Armelodie. That is a report by the ASTI.

The report may be sincere:
under the "Reasons for choosing teaching as a career" 4% said salary and 2% said pension,
also "Young teachers are keenly aware of the effects of changes to entry level salaries. The majority (82%) considered that changes to employment conditions for new entrants to the public service would deter graduates from choosing teaching as a career."

Everyone wants a secure, high paid job. I started work at 19 and I began what I considered my permanent, pensionable job at age 41 and retired from that at age 56. That is the real world.

Japer

Mr.Opti wrote: »

Structural engineers should be paid more because of the responsibility etc...

but should a structural engineer be paid more than a mechanical or electronic engineer? I do not think so.
there should be other factors in determining reward ; for example risk taken, training and skill necessary, etc.
In most countries those who go in to safe, pensionable secure jobs are paid less than those who take risks, work hard , show initiative etc. Thats what makes the free market system work / capitalism work.

canned_ulkc

Mr.Opti wrote: »

Thats subjective and you haven't mentioned what job you had. If your taking this as a category then Nurses, Gardai should be paid more. Structural engineers should be paid more because of the responsibility etc... So

Yes, it is indeed subjective. I thought that would be clear by specifically including the words "I feel" and limiting it to my experiences.

The comment was meant to address the ever-present notion of what a graduate deserves as pay and my already admitted subjective opinion of what I feel the responsibility is worth.

I made no link with Gardai, Nurses etc either. You are making that link and I fail to see how you can link my words to those professions. IMO renumeration should be linked with responsibility and ability.

I'd be happy to address whatever point you're trying to make but I can't see what it is so please clarify.

In terms of the jobs I previously worked at.... Again, considering I was addressing the ever present point of graduate wage I don't really think that matters. I wasn't a graduate when I worked in the private sector.


@Steddyeddy - absolutely right. The unions are complicit in what goes on in the public sector.

@kincsem - for so many years the job people kicked into after school or college became their career. during the celtic tiger this was not the case. Upskilling is a favourite buzzword for government. I thought I was upskilling but here I am, defending a profession I'm not really even in but am committed to (not financially but maybe ethically [not the right word but I love teaching and education so here is where I want to be]), pushing myself to get to somewhere I can make some form of effort. In the mean time, whether the conditions and pay are right where they are I'm sure anyone with an ounce of sense can see how the 2 tier system is not at all healthy and in any work, while workers feel aggrieved the "product" suffers.

coillsaille

Could a teacher on here explain why they believe a newly qualified accountancy teacher or chemistry teacher deserves a better salary than a newly qualified accountant or scientist in the pharma industry?

Because neither an accountant nor a scientist has to deal with people actively trying to prevent them from doing their job on a daily basis.

To clarify what I mean, take a secondary teacher based in a school where many of the kids are from a "lower socio-economic background" and/or coming from dysfunctional family situations. An average class in such a school will contain 5 to 10 students out of 25 who have the sole aim of disrupting the class and preventing the teacher from doing his/her job. Changes in education in the last 10 years mean such students cannot just be kicked out of class (as was done when I was in school). So the teacher often has no choice but to try to teach the others while also attempting to handle the aggression and antagonism of the disruptive ones. What accountant or scientist has to put up with anything like this every day in their office or lab?

I'm not saying give teachers more money, I just found the point above rather silly.

Mr.Opti

canned_ulkc wrote: »

I made no link with Gardai, Nurses etc either. You are making that link and I fail to see how you can link my words to those professions. IMO renumeration should be linked with responsibility and ability

Pretty easy to see my point and you've backed it up with what's highlighted and they are jobs that therefore you think should be paid more because of the responsibility

PaddyORuadhan

Just sped read this forum.......

all I can say is PEOPLE COP ON....

The ruling classes and financial elites are laughing their heads off.

They are playing divide and conquer.

Employed vs. Unemployed

Public vs Private sector

New Starts vs Established employees.

Immigrant vs 'Native' workers.

Meanwhile they are not suffering, they are not seeing the working conditions undermined. They are not struggling to pay bills.

Instead of arguing.... oh the private sector is facing insecurity... therefore the public sector should face insecurity.

We should be marching side by side saying we all deserve stable secure well paying jobs, and that we should not face austerity and insecurity so that the elites of this country and across Europe can have their gambling debts paid off.

Teachers didn't cause this crisis
Librarians in your local library didn't cause the crisis
The person manning a counter in a tax office or dole office didn't cause this crisis.
as much as the person working in the tesco down the way... or in the factory in the industrial estate, or the unemployed brickie or carpenter didn't cause the crisis

Direct your anger and frustration to those that deserve it. The rich and powerful in this country that have wrecked it, yet have not been asked to be held accountable for doing this.

Japer

coillsaille wrote: »

Because neither an accountant nor a scientist has to deal with people actively trying to prevent them from doing their job on a daily basis.

but theyt sometimes face challenges teachers do not. They also typically work longer hours / get less holidays than teachers. And as regards "responsibility", do you think taxi drivers and bus drivers and lollipop ladies ( people in charge of road / zebra crossings near schools ) should be paid more than accountants and scientists, because they have more "responsibility"?

canned_ulkc

Mr.Opti wrote: »

Pretty easy to see my point and you've backed it up with what's highlighted and they are jobs that therefore you think should be paid more because of the responsibility

Mr Opti, No actually, I haven't seen your point - I'm not trying to avoid your question either, I just don't see a direct question. I'd prefer not to bore any other reader with that so if you're not willing to take me as genuine when I say I don't understand your point then I'd prefer you not suggest I am being disingenuous and stick in another cryptic clue.

I'll try though to answer what I think may be your point.
Gardai - have a very different job to teachers and nurses
Nurses - have a very different job to teachers and gardai
Teachers - have a very different job to gardai and nurses

This does not mean that the level of responsibility is different. For a nurse, it's medical, for a teacher - educational, future economy, for a Garda - public safety. All very different. An engineer? I'll put them in as a general graduate position and maybe you should read my original post again - IMO a private sector graduate starting their job is worth more than what is currently being paid. I have also alluded to some of the reasoning for this - the devious use of "internships" within the private sector.

Unfortunately due to unions who are focused in a certain way and a government who is more concerned with getting treats from europe/imf by rolling over there is little space for creativity in trying to deal with public sector pay right now.

coillsaille

Japer wrote: »

but theyt sometimes face challenges teachers do not. They also typically work longer hours / get less holidays than teachers. And as regards "responsibility", do you think taxi drivers and bus drivers and lollipop ladies ( people in charge of road / zebra crossings near schools ) should be paid more than accountants and scientists, because they have more "responsibility"?

"Responsibility"? I didn't mention the word once in my post, with or without inverted commas.

I was referring to challenges which teachers (well those dealing with rooms full of difficult teenagers) face on a daily basis.
This was in reply to another post arguing that completely different jobs should have similar salaries, despite the work involved in each job having nothing in common. You seem to follow the same "logic".

Mr.Opti

canned_ulkc wrote: »

Mr Opti, No actually, I haven't seen your point - I'm not trying to avoid your question either, I just don't see a direct question. I'd prefer not to bore any other reader with that so if you're not willing to take me as genuine when I say I don't understand your point then I'd prefer you not suggest I am being disingenuous and stick in another cryptic clue.

I'll try though to answer what I think may be your point.
Gardai - have a very different job to teachers and nurses
Nurses - have a very different job to teachers and gardai
Teachers - have a very different job to gardai and nurses

This does not mean that the level of responsibility is different. For a nurse, it's medical, for a teacher - educational, future economy, for a Garda - public safety. All very different. An engineer? I'll put them in as a general graduate position and maybe you should read my original post again - IMO a private sector graduate starting their job is worth more than what is currently being paid. I have also alluded to some of the reasoning for this - the devious use of "internships" within the private sector.

You have stated pay should be dependent on responsibility I have icked a few different jobs that have more responsibility than teachers so therefore from what you have said they (nurses, gardai & Structural engineers) should be paid more than Teachers.

I'm done with you now

Zulu

canned_ulkc wrote: »

I'm an NQT and I hope you'll forgive me for not reading most of what has been said so far. I didn't read it because it's predictable....

I didn't read all your post because it's predictable, okay? Thanks. Bye.

In the private sector...

• People get fired for poor performance.
• People don't get automatic pay rises.

And, most importantly:

• peoples salaries are in line with what their employers can afford.

token101

Let them protest. If it is true that they are genuinely getting 32,000 as a starting salary they can **** off as far as I'm concerned. I got 18,500 starting in my field, and it rose to 21,000 after 2 years, and I was lucky to get that because it's all Job Bridge now. I'd to leave the country to get 32,000 and there's no prospect of me being able to return either. And these ****ing assholes are moaning about 32,000? They can **** right off. *****.

Zulu

The problem is, it's not like most other strikes: when they strike during the working day, the rest of us have to take leave/arrange alternatives for our children.

evolving_doors

Zulu wrote: »

• peoples salaries are in line with what their employers can afford.

If you believe that youre a bit naive...so a boss in
The private sector could actually afford to give his employees a 50% pay rise , does this mean he does? Wake up to yourself fella, the private sector aint all milk and honey..

Zulu

Armelodie wrote: »

If you believe that youre a bit naive...so a boss in
The private sector could actually afford to give his employees a 50% pay rise , does this mean he does?

No where did you get that from?
It means if an employer in the private sector pays it's employees more than it can afford it goes bust. So, it cuts wages/staff according to it's profits.

Wake up to yourself fella, the private sector aint all milk and honey..

I work in the private sector, fella. :rolleyes:

eire_lad

31K doesnt make sense at all. Know private sector graduates starting on 22-23K a year without pension, VHI and other benefits...

Even comparing teaching salaries to those in the UK shows the problem with our salary system.

Its about time teacher realised they work for the Public service which if taken as it own business is drastically losing money. Most people would be happy to keep their jobs in this scenario nver mind complaining......then again teacher cant lose their jobs no matter how bad they are......

Scanlas The 2nd

coillsaille wrote: »

"Responsibility"? I didn't mention the word once in my post, with or without inverted commas.

I was referring to challenges which teachers (well those dealing with rooms full of difficult teenagers) face on a daily basis.
This was in reply to another post arguing that completely different jobs should have similar salaries, despite the work involved in each job having nothing in common. You seem to follow the same "logic".

The challenges are obviously not so bad as to deter teachers from the profession. It's supply and demand, if the pay isn't enough look for something else.

eire_lad

Also are primary School and secondary teachers on the same pay scale?

mrbango

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbango
The argument that they have few hours starting out is horse s**t. Any one who came out of college with a construction related degree has had to leave the country as the industry is over saturated with qualified personell. tough sh*t, same for teachers, to many coming out of college. plenty of work abroad if the hours or wages aren't good enough here.

Do you not think it's horrible for anyone of any profession to be forced abroad because of bad job conditions? Not just teachers, but do you not think in general that's a horrible way for the country to be viewing the jobs crisis? "Tough ****, bugger off and don't complain about it"? Do you not think EVERYONE should be kicking up a fuss over that problem, not just teachers?

Yes it is a horrible fact of life that at this moment there is not enough full time teaching jobs, not enough building going on, etc etc to keep young people employed. There is plenty being done to improve the situation but no i don't think its possible to make up jobs for people. I pose this question to you. Why did you not take a job overseas rather than work here for €300 in a year? Laziness in my opinion.....It's not as if you couldn't come home during holidays to see family.