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Newly Qualified Teachers Protest

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    #302
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    I'm sick of all these 'I want more money protests'.

    If you are worth more than X euro per year - get another job. By protesting you are declaring, 'I'm worth more than X euro per year' - so prove it.

    This is about as silly as me protesting because nobody will pay 2000k for my used bicycle. I can rant and rave about how great it is and how it should be worth 2000k - but that doesn't change that ultimate fact that it's worth what people will pay.


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    #303
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    mariano rivera wrote: »
    I know teachers have to prepare after school


    Teachers get what 3 or 4 months holidays a year!


    That is the time they can pick up extra cash

    there are a variety of different contracts out there.about 5% of new teachers are made permanent in their first year. the other 95% have to make do with contracts of 11 hours or less.

    summer is a ball if you are permanent. otherwise its time without work and many teachers are forced to live off social welfare. what job uses you for nine months of the year like that? some schools give you a contract until may and then another one for september. you have to be available for interviews if you want work in september and very often they only given you an hour or two notice for the interview.can you really hold down another job in these circumstances?


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    #304
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    In theory, an unqualified teacher without a dip can no longer be employed I think....

    they are not supposed to be, but it happens.


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    #305
    Naomh
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭Naomh


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    there are a variety of different contracts out there.about 5% of new teachers are made permanent in their first year. the other 95% have to make do with contracts of 11 hours or less.

    summer is a ball if you are permanent. otherwise its time without work and many teachers are forced to live off social welfare. what job uses you for nine months of the year like that? some schools give you a contract until may and then another one for september. you have to be available for interviews if you want work in september and very often they only given you an hour or two notice for the interview.can you really hold down another job in these circumstances?

    Any figures available giving the age breakdown of non permanent teachers? Would be interesting to see....


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    #306
    donegal11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »
    Training for primary teachers or those undertaking education degrees is at least 3 years long.

    All degrees are at least 3 years long,the way you go on about being qualified would make anyone think you somehow climbed everest, it's not like other professions with massive failure/dropout rates. Does/can anyone fail hibernia for example ? and the B.ed is mostly an arts degree with a few months teaching practice and a few weeks in the Gaeltacht.


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    #307
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    donegal11 wrote: »
    All degrees are at least 3 years long,the way you go on about being qualified would make anyone think you somehow climbed everest,

    No, that's just your own hyperbole - but then I suppose this is AH after all.

    I don't care how long it takes to get qualified - it took a lot longer to qualify in my previous profession. I'm simply talking about whether you are qualifed or not. Qualifed as in you are professionally autonomous and responsible and not having somebody sign off on your work.
    donegal11 wrote: »
    it's not like other professions with massive failure/dropout rates. Does/can anyone fail hibernia for example ? and the B.ed is mostly an arts degree with a few months teaching practice and a few weeks in the Gaeltacht.

    Yes, because all other professions have massive failure or dropout rates.

    I have no opinions or knowledge of Hibernia. Your opinions of the B. Ed are of no interest to me. I am stating facts, nothing else.


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    #308
    donegal11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    there are a variety of different contracts out there.about 5% of new teachers are made permanent in their first year. the other 95% have to make do with contracts of 11 hours or less.

    summer is a ball if you are permanent. otherwise its time without work and many teachers are forced to live off social welfare. what job uses you for nine months of the year like that? some schools give you a contract until may and then another one for september. you have to be available for interviews if you want work in september and very often they only given you an hour or two notice for the interview.can you really hold down another job in these circumstances?

    Not being Permanent does mean working less then 11 hours. Not being permanent just means not being permanent and hence guaranteed your own hours.

    If you work during the year you get holiday pay included which means a teacher would earn 200/160 a day upon graduation . So working 9 months means you get the exact same as a teacher working the same amount of hours over the year plus you can sign on during the summer. So you are not exactly getting used or hard done by.


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    #309
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    donegal11 wrote: »
    Not being Permanent does mean working less then 11 hours. Not being permanent just means not being permanent and hence guaranteed your own hours.

    If you work during the year you get holiday pay included which means a teacher would earn 200/160 a day upon graduation . So working 9 months means you get the exact same as a teacher working the same amount of hours over the year plus you can sign on during the summer. So you are not exactly getting used or hard done by.

    You can sign on to keep your "stamps" up but if you worked a full year on the hourly rate you would receive no SW payment.


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    #310
    donegal11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »
    You can sign on to keep your "stamps" up but if you worked a full year on the hourly rate you would receive no SW payment.

    Depends on the SW office, some get paid wrongly during the summer even though they worked subbing all year.


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    #311
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    donegal11 wrote: »
    Depends on the SW office, some get paid wrongly during the summer even though they worked subbing all year.

    Maybe so - report it if you know this happens, but it's a bit rich to imply they would be legitimately entitled to payment.


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    #312
    donegal11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »
    Maybe so - report it if you know this happens, but it's a bit rich to imply they would be legitimately entitled to payment.

    Why would I, I'm surprised you never heard of teachers receiving dole during the summer even when worked all year, and as I said wrongly, I never said they were entitled to the money.


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    #313
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    donegal11 wrote: »
    Why would I, I'm surprised you never heard of teachers receiving dole during the summer even when worked all year, and as I said wrongly, I never said they were entitled to the money.

    I'm surprised you have heard of it.

    Teachers working part time hours on the hourly rate can legitimately receive money for part of the summer when their holiday pay runs out - I've never heard a case of a teacher receiving payment if they have worked full hours for the year - and I've been in that situation, as have dozens of others I know.

    Your initial post did not state they received it "wrongly" (bolded or otherwise) - so the implication was they could sign on and be paid, all above board. I mean, I could say college students can sign on for summer holidays - but it would be dishonest and disingenuous of me to do so - even though I know of several who have done so and received payment "wrongly".


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    #314
    vamos!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    Naomh wrote: »
    Any figures available giving the age breakdown of non permanent teachers? Would be interesting to see....

    Doubt it. I am heading for 30, did not come to teaching late and am covering yet another career break. Will be (hopefully!) starting somewhere new again in September, probably part-time or another career break. Let's say I get 16 of my own hours... I will need to work 4 years in the same school to get a CID of 16 hours at the ripe old age of 34. Hoping in the meantime my hours don't get cut and that my job will be viable for the next few years. 34 is the best-case scenario for my getting job security. It could be longer :( That would be 11 years after I started teaching, 11 years of being afraid to buy a house or start a family in case I have to move to Cork or Donegal for work the following year, 11 years of having amazing holidays but being too afraid to leave the country in case a last-minute interview pops up, 11 years of feeling physically ill with anxiety from May to almost the end of August. Not all unemployed or part-time teachers are spoiled young pups straight from college with a sense of self- entitlement!
    *I do not know many NQTs like this by the way!


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    #315
    fatherted1969
    Registered Users Posts: 2,199 ✭✭✭fatherted1969


    Amazing the way the vultures are circulating around these newly qualified teachers. The problems arent with these its the teachers that are on twice the money that is the problem. The sooner this Croke park agreement is taken on again the better. I'd sooner have a highly motivated new teacher teaching my children than some of these untouchables that are there at the moment


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    #316
    Brain Stroking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭Brain Stroking


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »
    Secondary teachers don't have a dip year. I have no idea about primary.

    Can you answer my question about the professional autonomy and responsibility of trainee accountants and solicitors?

    Certainly. As someone who used to be a trainee solicitor i can assure you that much work is done without any supervision. Whole litigation files are handled unsupervised. That is the autonomy aspect. The main difference is that a trainee solicitor cannot be sued as he/she will not have professional indemnity insurance. Otherwise i worked alone and reached the conclusion to a lot of files.


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    #317
    Mr.Opti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 62 ✭✭Mr.Opti


    vamos! wrote: »
    Let's say I get 16 of my own hours... I will need to work 4 years in the same school to get a CID of 16 hours at the ripe old age of 34. Hoping in the meantime my hours don't get cut and that my job will be viable for the next few years. 34 is the best-case scenario for my getting job security. It could be longer :( That would be 11 years after I started teaching, 11 years of being afraid to buy a house or start a family in case I have to move to Cork or Donegal for work the following year, 11 years of having amazing holidays but being too afraid to leave the country in case a last-minute interview pops up, 11 years of feeling physically ill with anxiety from May to almost the end of August. Not all unemployed or part-time teachers are spoiled young pups straight from college with a sense of self- entitlement!
    *I do not know many NQTs like this by the way!

    Moot point - That is the same as anyone else and not only for teachers. People can loose their jobs or others can only get short term contracts so they can be moving every where.

    Again anyone who is looking for a job has the same problem with interviews therefore another moot point


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    #318
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭2011abc


    fatherted1969 wrote: »
    I'd sooner have a highly motivated new teacher teaching my children than some of these untouchables that are there at the moment

    Untouchables?!Thats a good one !You think ALL teachers havent had savage pay cuts?We did NOT gain nearly as much as other jobs during the boom so why should WE pay for the bust?Stop swallowing government lies and propaganda.Teachers salaries are about 46% of the Dept of Ed's budget NOT 80%.


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    #319
    vamos!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    Mr.Opti wrote: »
    Moot point - That is the same as anyone else and not only for teachers. People can loose their jobs or others can only get short term contracts so they can be moving every where.

    Again anyone who is looking for a job has the same problem with interviews therefore another moot point

    Is it as widespread as in teaching though? I only have anecdotal evidence but my non-teacher friends are settled in skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled jobs. Even the primary teachers have some form of panel rights. It seemst o just be the secondary teachers moving all over the place, among my circle of friends anyway. I think the issue of 'hours' instead of jobs and discrepencies in hiring system need to be addressed ASAP. I am sure there are sectors where employers spread one job among 3 or 4 people, but I can;t think of many skilled jobs where this is becoming the norm. I am not quite sure why the protesters decided to focus on 32k as a figure. I was also not at all impressed with some of the people who spoke to the media. On the other hand, I was happy to see people willing to protest at inequality. I just think it backfired by focusing on only money and making it look like all teaching graduate head into permanent, full-time positions earning'only' 32k.


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    #320
    Brain Stroking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭Brain Stroking


    2011abc wrote: »
    We did NOT gain nearly as much as other jobs during the boom

    You work in the civil service. Stop being silly and enjoy the perks that it affords.


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    #321
    Brain Stroking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭Brain Stroking


    vamos! wrote: »
    I just think it backfired by focusing on only money and making it look like all teaching graduate head into permanent, full-time positions earning'only' 32k.

    It focussed on money because money was the primary concern.


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    #322
    Mr.Opti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 62 ✭✭Mr.Opti


    vamos! wrote: »
    Even the primary teachers have some form of panel rights. It seemst o just be the secondary teachers moving all over the place, among my circle of friends anyway. I think the issue of 'hours' instead of jobs and discrepencies in hiring system need to be addressed ASAP. I am sure there are sectors where employers spread one job among 3 or 4 people, but I can;t think of many skilled jobs where this is becoming the norm. I am not quite sure why the protesters decided to focus on 32k as a figure. I was also not at all impressed with some of the people who spoke to the media. On the other hand, I was happy to see people willing to protest at inequality. I just think it backfired by focusing on only money and making it look like all teaching graduate head into permanent, full-time positions earning'only' 32k.

    Primary teachers have the panel if they previously had a full position in the school and they left, school lost a teaching position because of numbers etc...

    I thought that the problem was the earning and only found out it was in fact the hours after reading this forum.


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    #323
    Japer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Japer


    Rasheed wrote: »
    I actually can't get over their cheek to be honest.

    Complaining about €32,000 a year? After 3/4 years in college?

    Again, I thought I was missing something, it seems mental that they think they are being hard done by.


    the country is truly f****d when a spoiled segment of society think the world owes them a living, and that they are entitled to a starting salary of 32k a year and short working weeks and loads of holidays.
    Their employer - the country - is bust. Do they still think its 2005?


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    #324
    Mervyn Crawford
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭Mervyn Crawford


    It is completely reactionary to split workers by section. Whether within a particular group, as with new and established teachers. Or between groups - teachers and the rest; public versus private; etc.

    However, it should be noted that the main facilitators of sectionalism are the unions! Union bureaucracies inherently defend sectional interests; and foster grades in the workplace so as to divide and encourage narrow self-interest as opposed to class conciousness.

    http://wsws.org/articles/2012/oct2012/teac-o26.shtml


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    #325
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    2011abc wrote: »
    ...so why should WE pay for the bust?
    :rolleyes: Indeed. You shouldn't have to. We should all just shoulder the burden without you, and we should all pay more so you can enjoy a more lavish lifestyle.

    Catch a hold of yourself. The reason you pay: your employer has gone bust. Didn't you get the memo?


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    #326
    Japer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Japer


    As someone else said, protesting at not being paid enough (even though it's a fine wage, more than most people and a wage they could live comfortably on), is just whinging. Many teachers I know make a fortune on the side doing nixers like grinds, running summer sports courses etc. Not a loss on them.


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    #327
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    I've tuned up my littlest violin and am ready to moan like everyone. When I studied chartered accountancy it was five exams during a five year training contract (or you could do a B Comm or similar, plus three years training and the final two exams.) Pay started at £4 a week (most of it went on busfares to work), rising to a staggering £17 a week in my last year. I had passed my final exams and was still on £17 for the last five months of the contract. Nobody offered me an allowance for my qualification when I started my first job after the training contract. Nobody gave increments.

    I live on a cul-de-sac with a school at the top of the road. Since I moved here about 25 years ago I notice a big car park has been built in the school (primary school.) I guess the pupils don't drive. Perhaps the teachers are not so badly paid? Teachers have time to generate extra income doing grinds, state exam supervision, and marking state exam papers. My father was a teacher and did all of these.


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    #328
    Icepick
    Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭Icepick


    gosplan wrote: »
    Do go on.
    best paid (per hour) - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0912/1224323911843.html
    bad results - http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/how-schools-are-letting-down-our-young-children-3227280.html & http://www.independent.ie/national-news/youth-unemployment-rate-hit-almost-40pc-last-year-3181380.html


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    #329
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Mr.Opti wrote: »
    Starting pay of 32k is very high for a graduate especially now and anyone who disagrees needs their head examined.

    From reading this thread its the lack of hours that people are complaining about?!? Right?
    Then why didn't protest the lack of hours / part time work and not complaining about money when they have no right to?

    Simple

    The Unions made a botch of it trying to argue for pay rates back up to established teachers, as some pathetic attempt to say they're concerned about the profession.

    I'll hazard a guess that those harangued into attending were from teacher training colleges who havn;t a clue what's going on, given their misinformed comments from the vox pops.


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    #330
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    kincsem wrote: »
    I've tuned up my littlest violin and am ready to moan like everyone. When I studied chartered accountancy it was five exams during a five year training contract (or you could do a B Comm or similar, plus three years training and the final two exams.) Pay started at £4 a week (most of it went on busfares to work), rising to a staggering £17 a week in my last year. I had passed my final exams and was still on £17 for the last five months of the contract. Nobody offered me an allowance for my qualification when I started my first job after the training contract. Nobody gave increments.

    As a matter of interest what's your current pay? I think the same applies for people in the legal profession starting out, but when they are established I;m sure they don;t go hungry...

    As regards allowances, it's a legacy issue that had become part of core pay..
    kincsem wrote: »
    I live on a cul-de-sac with a school at the top of the road. Since I moved here about 25 years ago I notice a big car park has been built in the school (primary school.) I guess the pupils don't drive. Perhaps the teachers are not so badly paid? Teachers have time to generate extra income doing grinds, state exam supervision, and marking state exam papers. My father was a teacher and did all of these.

    Maybe parents drive...

    I'd hazard a guess that your father is not a newly qualified teacher then... got full hours/full pension .. had a PROPER CAREER with normal contact time with pupils. His situation which you mention is moot as you're talking about teachers in the past... Do you think NQT's "generate extra income doing grinds, state exam supervision, and marking state exam papers"... not a hope.


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    #331
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Icepick wrote: »
    best paid (per hour) - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0912/1224323911843.html
    bad results - http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/how-schools-are-letting-down-our-young-children-3227280.html & http://www.independent.ie/national-news/youth-unemployment-rate-hit-almost-40pc-last-year-3181380.html

    So basically your saying that it's ok to hire a teacher and give them maybe 6 hours a week and live off it? Your figures are based on the assumption of full hours on old rates. That situation does not exist anymore...

    Also your second point about bad results (which has nothing to do with teaching ability, given that teachers are required to teach religion), are you suggesting if they were paid less then this would improve standards...


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