Boy 11(atheist) banned from Scouts

the_syco

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Sorry that is wrong They don't ask if you believe in God they ask if you believe in a supreme being

Which is why I said "sort of like", as opposed to "the same as".

=-=

The only place the church has in my scout unit was the annual Saint Patricks parade whilst I was in cubs and a few years in scouts to the church.

Apart from that, all I remember is the fun I had at the camps, and the knowledge I learnt as part of being a scout. Also the people who I met through the scouts.

Maggie 2 wrote: »

A young Irish atheist from Tipperary has made an official complaint after he claimed his school forced him to attend a multi-denominational prayer service.

I wonder if the school is one of the usual catholic based schools (which have catholic priests as teachers and/or on the board of management), and if it is, did the parents state that they were church going catholics to get the child into the school?

Broxi_Bear_Eire

the_syco wrote: »

Which is why I said "sort of like", as opposed to "the same as".

=-=

The only place the church has in my scout unit was the annual Saint Patricks parade whilst I was in cubs and a few years in scouts to the church.

Apart from that, all I remember is the fun I had at the camps, and the knowledge I learnt as part of being a scout. Also the people who I met through the scouts.


I wonder if the school is one of the usual catholic based schools (which have catholic priests as teachers and/or on the board of management), and if it is, did the parents state that they were church going catholics to get the child into the school?

But its not sort of Its nothing like
One you have to believe in God the other you have to believe in a supreme being two different things

coffee_cake

the_syco wrote: »

6-8; beavers
9-11; cubs
12-15; scouts
15-17; ventures

It was a joke

Maggie 2

"I wonder if the school is one of the usual catholic based schools (which have catholic priests as teachers and/or on the board of management), and if it is, did the parents state that they were church going catholics to get the child into the school?"
It's a VEC, not a religious school. I thought they were more open in their outlook.

Dades

raycre wrote: »

eh sorry m8 but that point about him been safer from sex offenders in those groups is a valid one so maybe you should do your homework on where these type of people hang out... It was on topic . just look at whats happening in America with the scouts and look at priests offending all over the world..... !!!! Are we not allowed to mention that ffs..

The issue was *mainly* the manner in which the posts in question were made. If a reference to abuse had been made in a relevant or mature fashion this conversation wouldn't be happening. And it isn't any more. End of story.

Dades

Also there's already been two threads started about that kid from Tipp!

Take that talk to the open one.

Maggie 2

Dades wrote: »

Also there's already been two threads started about that kid from Tipp!

Take that talk to the open one.

Sorry, Dades, hadn't seen them.

endacl

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Sorry that is wrong They don't ask if you believe in God they ask if you believe in a supreme being

Cool. I believe in me...

pauldla

Seen on Lamebook: Not religious and not in the scouts. His chances of being molested have dropped to practically zero.

Delirium

pauldla wrote: »

Seen on Lamebook: Not religious and not in the scouts. His chances of being molested have dropped to practically zero.

because we never hear of family members abusing children :rolleyes:

The Mad Hatter

bluewolf wrote: »

It was a joke

Don't worry, I got it.:o

OldNotWIse

Er...why does he want to join the scouts if he's an atheist????

Delirium

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Er...why does he want to join the scouts if he's an atheist????

silly him for not realising that learning about map-reading/orienteering, knot-tying and first-aid require affliation with a religious organisation.

OldNotWIse

koth wrote: »

silly him for not realising that learning about map-reading/orienteering, knot-tying and first-aid require affliation with a religious organisation.

Very silly indeed.

looksee

I have been trying to think of youth groups started by non-religious organisations that do much the same as Scouting and Guiding and all I can come up with is the Duke of Edinburgh scheme in the UK and various sporting and military type groups.

I suppose there must be some, though I think they would be co-incidentally non-religious, rather than atheist. But Scouting started out as a group that primarily chose to promote duty to 'God and the monarch' and offered character building activities in order to reinforce this.

The point I am making is that this was a religious group first and a knot-tying, orienteering group second. If, as an atheist, you feel strongly enough about it, then take on the enormous task of starting an atheist group that does the same. If you feel that youth work is important, if you feel that one kid removed from street corners and given something to be challenged by, matters. Maybe if all the self-righteous complainers got off their backsides and did something then their snide remarks might be relevant.

I have little time for religion, and less for the self-serving lords of the church, and the sanctimonious Sunday-go-meeting types, but when it has been wiped out, who is going to run the St Vincent de Paul, the youth groups, the social support groups? For all that is wrong with it, religion has helped hold society together, and given it purpose. Yes, I know it has also done the opposite, but when the social aspects of the various major churches have died out what will fill their place?

Bannasidhe

There's always Na Fianna Éireann - no mention of a supreme being but heavy on the Brits Out Rhetoric and a startlingly fascistic line in slogans such as

Glaine inàr – Purity in our hearts

Neart inàr ngèaga – Strength in our arms

Beart de rèir ar mbriathar – Truth on our lips

http://www.rsfkerry.com/joinnafiannaireann.htm

:eek:

Peregrinus

looksee wrote: »

I have been trying to think of youth groups started by non-religious organisations that do much the same as Scouting and Guiding and all I can come up with is the Duke of Edinburgh scheme in the UK and various sporting and military type groups.

I suppose there must be some, though I think they would be co-incidentally non-religious, rather than atheist . . .

In the UK (which is where these events took place) there's the Woodcraft Folk, which is non-religious and relentlessly politically correct (and accepts both boys and girls). They've been mentioned a couple of times in this thread already.

Corkfeen

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Er...why does he want to join the scouts if he's an atheist????

Scouts is awesome, it's one of those opportunities where children get to have some sense of self sufficiency and independence. I was never much of a sportsman but scouting suited me down to the ground. I can't remember anything particularly religious about it from when I was a member.

Bannasidhe

Peregrinus wrote: »

In the UK (which is where these events took place) there's the Woodcraft Folk, which is non-religious and relentlessly politically correct (and accepts both boys and girls). They've been mentioned a couple of times in this thread already.

I'd forgotten about the Woodcraft Folk. Knew loads of kids in that when I lived in the UK.

mathepac

MagicMarker wrote: »

So you're just assuming the parents already knew how the scouts operated? So you are kinda just making things up? Okay, well that's all you had to say really.

Detailed answers as requested. Now your knowledge deficit has been redressed, say "thank you", graciously; there's no need for continuing the dog in the manger attitude.

mathepac

looksee wrote: »

... For all that is wrong with it, religion has helped hold society together, and given it purpose. Yes, I know it has also done the opposite, but when the social aspects of the various major churches have died out what will fill their place?

+1. The Order of Malta, St. John's Ambulance Brigade, The Salvation Army, The Legion of Mary, The Colleges' Volunteer Corps, etc have all done their utmost to maintain the physical well-being of those they serve as much as the spiritual well-being of their members.

wonderfulname

looksee wrote: »

I have been trying to think of youth groups started by non-religious organisations that do much the same as Scouting and Guiding and all I can come up with is the Duke of Edinburgh scheme in the UK and various sporting and military type groups.

I suppose there must be some, though I think they would be co-incidentally non-religious, rather than atheist. But Scouting started out as a group that primarily chose to promote duty to 'God and the monarch' and offered character building activities in order to reinforce this.

The point I am making is that this was a religious group first and a knot-tying, orienteering group second. If, as an atheist, you feel strongly enough about it, then take on the enormous task of starting an atheist group that does the same. If you feel that youth work is important, if you feel that one kid removed from street corners and given something to be challenged by, matters. Maybe if all the self-righteous complainers got off their backsides and did something then their snide remarks might be relevant.

Scouting in the UK is no longer tied to any religious organisation, the scouts promise can be modified for any god, or even any nationality (you don't have to promise to the Queen any more either), they just refuse to modify it for no god. This is very clearly discrimination, we're not talking the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland here, the Scouts Association now claims itself open to all youths, regardless of gender, race, nationality or religion, unless, that is, you have no religion it seems.

Linky (PDF)

If they're going to play at being inclusive they should include, no?

EDIT: Just remembered, they don't allow atheist leaders either (they're called leaders, right?), it just doesn't make sense when ANY religion is fine, if they were specifically CoE and passing that message on to youths, keeping it within the church makes sense, but all the religions of the world don't exactly gel, so I don't see why having a religion gets to be a prerequisite.

Sulla Felix

wonderfulname wrote: »

EDIT: Just remembered, they don't allow atheist leaders either (they're called leaders, right?), it just doesn't make sense when ANY religion is fine, if they were specifically CoE and passing that message on to youths, keeping it within the church makes sense, but all the religions of the world don't exactly gel, so I don't see why having a religion gets to be a prerequisite.

Because atheists eat babies. Seriously if one of us got hungry it's not a stretch to think we might eat a grown kid as well.

MagicMarker

Apparently there are only two kinds of people who are not allowed to be scout leaders, atheists and pedophiles.

looksee

The points about Woodland folk and the changes in the Scouts are valid and I did not know about them as it is a long time since I lived in the UK.

Incidentally, I was refused as a Guide leader here in Ireland as they were the Catholic Girl Guides at the time, and I called myself protestant at the time.

I stand by my argument that the organisation is entitled to retain the God reference if that is what it wants to do. It is an entirely different situation from schools - a child has to have an education and preferably at a school near where they life, and schools are funded out of public funds. If you really want a youth group that doesn't mention god, then go to another one, or found one.

Sulla Felix

looksee wrote: »

If you really want a youth group that doesn't mention god, then go to another one, or found one.

I know a guy who can get us some nice brownshirts for the uniforms. Fsck the begrudgers I say. :pac:

Seriously though, I've noticed in my area at least, there's been quite a few bushcraft groups being formed aimed at varying ages. No one is going to found a national organization over night but if anyone knows what they're doing and has a hankering, a local group could be viable.

Peregrinus

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Seriously though, I've noticed in my area at least, there's been quite a few bushcraft groups being formed aimed at varying ages. No one is going to found a national organization over night . . .

In the UK, where this story comes from, the Woodcraft Folk is already a national organisation, with about 400 groups around the country.

There's also an international movement, a federation of various national associations which provide what amounts to a lefty alternative to traditional scouting. At national level these movements are often know as "Falcons" as opposed to "Scouts". I don't think there's a Falcon organisation in Ireland, though.

pauldla

Peregrinus wrote: »

In the UK, where this story comes from, the Woodcraft Folk is already a national organisation, with about 400 groups around the country.

Yeah, but look at what they're calling themselves. Would you rather be a Woodland Folk, or a Scout?

Peregrinus

pauldla wrote: »

Yeah, but look at what they're calling themselves. Would you rather be a Woodland Folk, or a Scout?

It could be worse. In the 1920s, one of the leading lefty alternatives to scouting - a breakaway because scouting was seen as too militaristic - was "The Kindred of the Kibbo Kift".

pauldla

Peregrinus wrote: »

It could be worse. In the 1920s, one of the leading lefty alternatives to scouting - a breakaway because scouting was seen as too militaristic - was "The Kindred of the Kibbo Kift".

Ah Peregrinus, you're an education...