Boy 11(atheist) banned from Scouts

magicbastarder

Mickeroo wrote: »

Had no idea the scouts were christian based at all before this thread!

in ireland, they're not (explicitly, anyway) any longer.

though there is an organisation called the boy's brigade, which predates the scouts (i'm led to believe that they reckon baden powell nicked the idea from them) which is faith based, on protestant lines.

the_syco

magicbastarder wrote: »

though there is an organisation called the boy's brigade, which predates the scouts (i'm led to believe that they reckon baden powell nicked the idea from them) which is faith based, on protestant lines.

The scouts were always scouts, but they were for a time Catholic Boy Scouts;

During the 1920’s some of those with aspirations for the new Ireland felt uncomfortable with the focus of the existing Scout Association, which tended to have a pro-British and Protestant image.

so they made a CBSI. But I agree that Baden probably nicked the idea, unless he had served in an army before then.

=-=

Sort of like the other group; Freemasonry. If you don't believe in a god, you can't get in.

Sulla Felix

I think it was the CBSI I was in. We said the Father prayer in Irish at the start and that was literally the extent of religion. Now, I went to a secular primary so that was a bit of a wierd thing to stand in lines and say a prayer, but I guess it's a lot less than what went on in national schools at the time.

Peregrinus

Mickeroo wrote: »

Had no idea the scouts were christian based at all before this thread!

They’re not. They’re theist-based.

magicbastarder wrote: »

in ireland, they're not (explicitly, anyway) any longer.

Not quite right, I think. Scouting in Ireland used to be divided along denominational lines, and it no longer is. But the Scouting Ireland oath still includes the bit about “doing my duty to God”, which is what brought matters to a head in the case mentioned in the OP. There is, however, an alternative version of the oath in which that wording can be replaced with a reference to “furthering my understanding and acceptance of a Spiritual Reality”, which may not be called God but still gets Capital Letters.

Dave!

Is Scouts the same organisation as Beavers and Cubs? I was in those when I was a kid, left before Scouts though. There was no mention of religion when I was there, except perhaps in an oath or whatever (though I don't recall that).

the_syco

Dave! wrote: »

Is Scouts the same organisation as Beavers and Cubs? I was in those when I was a kid, left before Scouts though. There was no mention of religion when I was there, except perhaps in an oath or whatever (though I don't recall that).

Yes. Most of the halls don't bother shoving it down your throat, but it is there in the oaths, etc. I remember when I was a scout, and a blind eye was turned when a protestant joined with his mates.

Lucy8080

MrPudding wrote: »

It is all very well saying that it is a christian organisation and if the child does not want to take the oath then he should not be able to join, but that, to an extent makes light of what is actually an issue here.

This is a organisation for children that has an exemption to discrimination legislation that give it free reign to discriminate against a child based on their, or their parents belief. We, as in most of the regulars on this forum, believe that schools should not be allowed to do this, why should the scouts be any different?

I joined the Army Cadets when I live in Northern Ireland, basically scouts with guns. They did not have any religiously discriminating joining policies, nor would they have been allowed to have one.

Would it be acceptable for a golf club to only allow christian to join? Why does the scouts have an exemption?

MrP

It's great to hear that teenagers can carry guns ,regardless of any religious discriminatory policies!

I'll sleep easy tonight!

Nodin

Lucy8080 wrote: »

It's great to hear that teenagers can carry guns ,regardless of any religious discriminatory policies!

I'll sleep easy tonight!

You've a point?

mathepac

MrPudding wrote: »

... This is a organisation for children that has an exemption to discrimination legislation that give it free reign to discriminate against a child based on their, or their parents belief. We, as in most of the regulars on this forum, believe that schools should not be allowed to do this, why should the scouts be any different?. ...

BS I cry, total BS.

The child's parents would have known in great detail what joining a scouting movement founded by Baden Powell would have involved and are therefore guilty of using their child to stage some sort of stupidly cheap publicity stunt. I mean to say, The Sun for feck's sake.

MrPudding wrote: »

... I joined the Army Cadets when I live in Northern Ireland, basically scouts with guns. They did not have any religiously discriminating joining policies, nor would they have been allowed to have one. ...

And in joining the Army Cadets you would have sworn an oath as well to serve the crown and God Bless all who sail in him or her as the case may be, or were you allowed to affirm in those days?

The caring parents in the raggy newspaper are guilty of abusing their child by not explaining that he was attempting to join a theist movement and what would be required of him; a more effective and caring response would have been to start a non-theist or non-denominational scouting movement.

Cheap publicity, exploitative parents and yellow journalism. I'd be concerned for the sanity of supporters of the crappy newspaper's self-righteouness. Well done The Sun & Co., another inglorious victory.

MrPudding

Nodin wrote: »

You've a point?

Typically not...

mathepac wrote: »

BS I cry, total BS.

The child's parents would have known in great detail what joining a scouting movement founded by Baden Powell would have involved and are therefore guilty of using their child to stage some sort of stupidly cheap publicity stunt. I mean to say, The Sun for feck's sake.

Leaving aside the parent's poor choice of newspaper, I think you are kind of missing the point. Are you saying that because, when it was formed, the scouting movement had a discriminatory policy it should be allowed to continue that? If that is the attitude we would still have the blacks at the back of the buses, using separate water fountains and going to separate schools.

The scouts were born in an age where there was no anti-discrimination legislation and it was perfectly fine to discriminate on certain grounds. Thankfully society has moved on and most of these grounds for discrimination have been seen for what they are, disgusting and unnecessary. Soon we will have remove discrimination based what happens in the privacy of a person's bedroom removed. This only leaves what is one of the most insidious of the grounds of discrimination, religion.

I am sure the parents did know the history of the scouts, but perhaps they believed what certain people in the scouts have said on record, see MagicMarker's earlier post, or perhaps assumed that in the 21st century such discrimination would not be allowed.

mathepac wrote: »

And in joining the Army Cadets you would have sworn an oath as well to serve the crown and God Bless all who sail in him or her as the case may be, or were you allowed to affirm in those days?

We had to swear allegiance to the queen. I recall that during the ceremony my two "catholic" best friends and I had our fingers crossed behind our backs as we said it.

That said, I am not sure of the relevance of your point. As I already said, there was no religious denominational requirement for entry, and even if there was a believe in god element whether one person chooses to pretend they believe does not mean another child should do the same.

mathepac wrote: »

The caring parents in the raggy newspaper are guilty of abusing their child by not explaining that he was attempting to join a theist movement and what would be required of him; a more effective and caring response would have been to start a non-theist or non-denominational scouting movement.

Yes, because starting you own scout movement is something you can box off in an afternoon. :rolleyes:

I think you will find it hard to justify the child abuse claim for this. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, it is conceivable that they simply did not realise that this particular group were so strict and operated in such a discriminatory manner. The fact that they are legally allowed to discriminate in this manner does not remove from the fact that it is discrimination.

mathepac wrote: »

Cheap publicity, exploitative parents and yellow journalism. I'd be concerned for the sanity of supporters of the crappy newspaper's self-righteouness. Well done The Sun & Co., another inglorious victory.

What paper it is in does not really take away from the fact that it happened... I am not sure what your point is here. Personally I can't stand the Sun, but whether it was reported there or anywhere else the salient fact is that it happened.

MrP

MagicMarker

mathepac wrote: »

BS I cry, total BS.

The child's parents would have known in great detail what joining a scouting movement founded by Baden Powell would have involved and are therefore guilty of using their child to stage some sort of stupidly cheap publicity stunt. I mean to say, The Sun for feck's sake.

And in joining the Army Cadets you would have sworn an oath as well to serve the crown and God Bless all who sail in him or her as the case may be, or were you allowed to affirm in those days?

The caring parents in the raggy newspaper are guilty of abusing their child by not explaining that he was attempting to join a theist movement and what would be required of him; a more effective and caring response would have been to start a non-theist or non-denominational scouting movement.

Cheap publicity, exploitative parents and yellow journalism. I'd be concerned for the sanity of supporters of the crappy newspaper's self-righteouness. Well done The Sun & Co., another inglorious victory.

Do you have some kind of insider information that we are not aware of? How do you know if the parents knew how the Scouts operated? And what have they achieved for themselves in pulling a "publicity stunt"?

I didn't know how religious the organisation was until recently, there are people in this thread who didn't know. I looked at their website and it took me quite a while to find anything about religion.

Or are you maybe just pulling this information out of your arse?

Peregrinus

MrPudding wrote: »

This is a organisation for children that has an exemption to discrimination legislation . . . Why does the scouts have an exemption?

A misconception. The scouts have no exemption from discrimination legislation.

There is nothing in the discrimination legislation to prevent a bunch of people sharing a common religious belief (or a common sex, or a common sexual orentiation, or a common disabled status, or a common ethnic origin, or whatever) from getting together. The Scout Association being an association of theists is no different from the Girl Guides Association being an association of girls, or the Irish Sceptical Society being an association of sceptics, or the Presbyterian Church in Ireland being an association of Presbyterians. There no law to prohibit this (why would there be?) and therefore none of these organisations need, and none of them have, any "exemption".

MrPudding

Peregrinus wrote: »

A misconception. The scouts have no exemption from discrimination legislation.

Really?

Equality Act 2010, s193(5) wrote:

It is not a contravention of this Act for a charity to require members, or persons wishing to become members, to make a statement which asserts or implies membership or acceptance of a religion or belief; and for this purpose restricting the access by members to a benefit, facility or service to those who make such a statement is to be treated as imposing such a requirement.

That looks suspiciously like an exemption from discrimination legislation to me...

MrP

coffee_cake

What happened to boys 1-10

mikemac1

Mickeroo wrote: »

Had no idea the scouts were christian based at all before this thread!

Catholic Boys Scouts of Ireland were in my town, I was a member

They were probably in your town too

google tells me the name changed to Scouting Ireland in 1997

I feel old

Peregrinus

MrPudding wrote: »

Really?

That looks suspiciously like an exemption from discrimination legislation to me...

MrP

Except that the Scout Association don't rely on s. 193(5). They don;t have to because of Sch 16 cl. 1, which states"

"An association does not contravene section 101(1) by restricting membership to persons who share a protected characteristic."

S. 101(1) is the provision which prevents an association from discriminating against people in the arrangements them make for admission to membership. The combination of the two provisions mean that it's fine to set up an association for people of a particular sex, race, religious belief, family status, etc. But, having done so, you can't discriminate between people who share that necessary characteristic. So the Christian Mother's Sodality can exclude someone who isn't Christian, or who isn't a Mother, but they couldn't exclude an otherwise qualified Christian Mother on the grounds that she's, say, disabled.

MrPudding

Peregrinus wrote: »

Except that the Scout Association don't rely on s. 193(5). They don;t have to because of Sch 16 cl. 1, which states"

"An association does not contravene section 101(1) by restricting membership to persons who share a protected characteristic."

S. 101(1) is the provision which prevents an association from discriminating against people in the arrangements them make for admission to membership. The combination of the two provisions mean that it's fine to set up an association for people of a particular sex, race, religious belief, family status, etc. But, having done so, you can't discriminate between people who share that necessary characteristic. So the Christian Mother's Sodality can exclude someone who isn't Christian, or who isn't a Mother, but they couldn't exclude an otherwise qualified Christian Mother on the grounds that she's, say, disabled.

Meh, either way, they do have an exception contrary to what you said. And the main point still remains that it is, to many, questionable whether or not an association or charity should be allowed to discriminate.

MrP

mathepac

MagicMarker wrote: »

Do you have some kind of insider information that we are not aware of? ...

No more than any reasonably well-informed adult

MagicMarker wrote: »

... How do you know if the parents knew how the Scouts operated? ...

Unless they and their ancestors have lived in a deep cave on Dartmoor for several generations they must have heard of Baden Powell, "Scouting for Boys", the Boy Scout movement, etc

MagicMarker wrote: »

... And what have they achieved for themselves in pulling a "publicity stunt"? ...

Deserved derision, justified contempt, massive belly laughs at their expense, concern for their sanity and their suitability as parents, worry for their child(ren)...

MagicMarker wrote: »

...
I didn't know how religious the organisation was until recently, there are people in this thread who didn't know. I looked at their website and it took me quite a while to find anything about religion. ...

What do you want me to say? You lack information that's in the public domain for more than a century, "common knowledge" as they say. It seems it might be as scarce as common sense

MagicMarker wrote: »

...Or are you maybe just pulling this information out of your arse?

In order to donate it to The Sun in order to improve their content? Nah, there's enough of that stuff, human and bovine. around.

MagicMarker

mathepac wrote: »

No more than any reasonably well-informed adult
Unless they and their ancestors have lived in a deep cave on Dartmoor for several generations they must have heard of Baden Powell, "Scouting for Boys", the Boy Scout movement, etc
Deserved derision, justified contempt, massive belly laughs at their expense, concern for their sanity and their suitability as parents, worry for their child(ren)...
What do you want me to say? You lack information that's in the public domain for more than a century, "common knowledge" as they say. It seems it might be as scarce as common sense
In order to donate it to The Sun in order to improve their content? Nah, there's enough of that stuff, human and bovine. around.

So you're just assuming the parents already knew how the scouts operated? So you are kinda just making things up? Okay, well that's all you had to say really.

the_syco

bluewolf wrote: »

What happened to boys 1-10

6-8; beavers
9-11; cubs
12-15; scouts
15-17; ventures

Ellis Dee

The kid should look on the bright side. By not being in an organisation, he may develop an ability to think as an individual a lot faster than the others do.;)

And he is in considerably less danger of being buggered by a scoutmaster.:D

Peregrinus

MrPudding wrote: »

Meh, either way, they do have an exception contrary to what you said. And the main point still remains that it is, to many, questionable whether or not an association or charity should be allowed to discriminate.

I wouldn't call it an exception; it's more like the shape of the legislation. It doesn't prevent people from forming common interest groups, and isn't intended to.

You describe that policy as "questionable", but I don't see two many people questioning it, to be honest. Nobody has pointed out that both the scouts and the guides systematically discriminate on the grounds of sex and age - both protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010. If the principle you advocate for were accepted then the question of whether the Scout Association could confine membership to theists would never arise; the Scout Association could not exist at all, and little George would still have to do without his caving.

looksee

Ellis Dee wrote: »

The kid should look on the bright side. By not being in an organisation, he may develop an ability to think as an individual a lot faster than the others do.;)

And he is in considerably less danger of being buggered by a scoutmaster.:D


Presumably you have never been a Scout or Guide. It is easy to make throw-away, slanderous remarks about an organisation that overall does its best to give guidance and direction to its members. I was a Guide for several years in my early teens, and I am still conscious of some of the benefits I gained from it, including leadership skills, confidence, practical skills and personal presentation. It was not perfect by any means, what is? But the benefits far outweighed the minor negative, which did not even occur to me at the time, of swearing allegiance 'to God and the Queen'.

The reference to Scoutmasters is pathetic. Yes there have been people who have taken advantage of their role in youth work, including all manner of sports and social groups. However it is partly as a result of the willingness of thoughtless members of the public, who would never consider giving their time to youth work, to make cheap jokes, that there is such a shortage of male youth workers.

Sulla Felix

looksee wrote: »

Ellis Dee wrote: »

The kid should look on the bright side. By not being in an organisation, he may develop an ability to think as an individual a lot faster than the others do.;)

And he is in considerably less danger of being buggered by a scoutmaster.:D


Presumably you have never been a Scout or Guide. It is easy to make throw-away, slanderous remarks about an organisation that overall does its best to give guidance and direction to its members. I was a Guide for several years in my early teens, and I am still conscious of some of the benefits I gained from it, including leadership skills, confidence, practical skills and personal presentation. It was not perfect by any means, what is? But the benefits far outweighed the minor negative, which did not even occur to me at the time, of swearing allegiance 'to God and the Queen'.

The reference to Scoutmasters is pathetic. Yes there have been people who have taken advantage of their role in youth work, including all manner of sports and social groups. However it is partly as a result of the willingness of thoughtless members of the public, who would never consider giving their time to youth work, to make cheap jokes, that there is such a shortage of male youth workers.

Replace scoutmaster with priest, scouts with Catholic church and all of a sudden the criticism is legit? What's good for the goose.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

the_syco wrote: »

The scouts were always scouts, but they were for a time Catholic Boy Scouts;

so they made a CBSI. But I agree that Baden probably nicked the idea, unless he had served in an army before then.

=-=

Sort of like the other group; Freemasonry. If you don't believe in a god, you can't get in.

Sorry that is wrong They don't ask if you believe in God they ask if you believe in a supreme being

raycre

Daveaherne wrote: »

A 11 year old boy was banned from joining the scouts in the UK because he is an atheist. Shows yet again how loving and tolerant some believers are.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4596343/Boy-banned-from-Scouts-because-he-doesnt-believe-in-God.html#ixzz29kXibK3r

He is better off away from the scouts and Religious organisations anyway.. They are full of paedos !!! ...

Dades

Would those dropping by to shout "paedo" or suggest similar please remember there's a forum called After Hours that's right up your street. Maybe finish your homework first, though. Tomorrow's a school day.

On topic, I was in the cubs and scouts for several years and can't remember anything except the craic we had. If there was an odd prayer or something it completely passed me by.

looksee

Sulla Felix wrote: »

looksee wrote: »

Replace scoutmaster with priest, scouts with Catholic church and all of a sudden the criticism is legit? What's good for the goose.

Does this make any sense? I was going to respond but realised it was auto-waffle and didn't actually mean anything or relate to my point.

raycre

Dades wrote: »

Would those dropping by to shout "paedo" or suggest similar please remember there's a forum called After Hours that's right up your street. Maybe finish your homework first, though. Tomorrow's a school day.

On topic, I was in the cubs and scouts for several years and can't remember anything except the craic we had. If there was an odd prayer or something it completely passed me by.[/QUOTE

eh sorry m8 but that point about him been safer from sex offenders in those groups is a valid one so maybe you should do your homework on where these type of people hang out... It was on topic . just look at whats happening in America with the scouts and look at priests offending all over the world..... !!!! Are we not allowed to mention that ffs..

Maggie 2

http://www.tippfm.com/news/detail/young_atheist_from_tipp_makes_offical_complaint

Young atheist from Tipp makes offical complaint
21 Oct, 2012 - He claims he was forced to attend multi-denominational prayer service
A young Irish atheist from Tipperary has made an official complaint after he claimed his school forced him to attend a multi-denominational prayer service.
Teenager Nathan Young has complained to the Irish Human Rights Commission that his vocational education committee (VEC) school breached his human rights.
The 16-year-old student at Borrisokane community college in Tipperary has demanded that the school principal apologize and promise not to make religious events mandatory for students in the future.
His father Chris Young has told the Irish edition of the Sunday Times newspaper that he supports his son’s decision.