Boy 11(atheist) banned from Scouts

Daveaherne

A 11 year old boy was banned from joining the scouts in the UK because he is an atheist. Shows yet again how loving and tolerant some believers are.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4596343/Boy-banned-from-Scouts-because-he-doesnt-believe-in-God.html#ixzz29kXibK3r

Peregrinus

What do you want? It's an explicitly theist organisation, with theism as a stated membership requirement. Always has been. There are nontheist and inclusive alternatives. Admittedly, they have to put up with the humiliation of being known as the "Woodcraft Folk", which is a lot to ask of any self-respecting 11-year-old boy, but you can hardly blame the theists for that.

I think you're entitled to a Groucho Marx moment when you read a story like this. But "intolerant"? Really? If a bunch of like-minded theists can't get together in paramilitary uniforms for a spot of caving and swearing allegiance to the Queen, it's not the theists who are being intolerant.

pauldla

There are alternatives to joining the scouts. Like, not joining the scouts, for example.:p

obplayer

Why can't he just do what I did and lie? Didn't believe a word of religion but had great fun in the Sea Scouts.

wonderfulname

Yup, that's the scouts for you. The US scouts also recently kicked out a member in the states for being gay, although it wasn't much of a surprise as they've been running with a policy along the lines of DADT for over 20 years.

Personally I think it despicable that adults running an organisation which promotes civic and social responsibility would earmark youths as different to their peers before isolating them for that fact. It's also horribly ironic they can cite Christianity to do so.

As a non believing baptised Catholic I was granted membership to a CoI organisation as a child, one considerably more religious than I remember the Scouts being, because all of my school friends were members, and it was understood that not being a prick to a child was more important than enforcing the stupid divides that seem to define adult life for some. I don't get why this concept is so hard, the kid is 11, he shouldn't be affected by this stuff.

Galvasean

Would letting the atheist kid in not give him a nice dose of good ol' fashioned Christian compassion? Might make him ,ore like;y to change his mind. Instead he's just going to think Christians are sectarian meanies and resent them for it.

Sulla Felix

Galvasean wrote: »

Would letting the atheist kid in not give him a nice dose of good ol' fashioned Christian compassion? Might make him ,ore like;y to change his mind. Instead he's just going to think Christians are sectarian meanies and resent them for it.

Maybe they're hoping the exclusion will make him convert or something.

Peregrinus

Galvasean wrote: »

Would letting the atheist kid in not give him a nice dose of good ol' fashioned Christian compassion? Might make him ,ore like;y to change his mind. Instead he's just going to think Christians are sectarian meanies and resent them for it.

So if he declines to take a theist oath because he doesn't believe in it, he's being principled and displaying integrity, but if they say their theism is foundational to what they're about, they're being sectarian and mean?

Lucy8080

we need a repubilican kid claiming he will not take an oath to the queen standing alongside this kid who will not take an oath to any god!

I'd love to see two eleven year old' doing this!

And ,more'so, watch the daily mail reporting on it!

If only for the craic!

Peregrinus

Lucy8080 wrote: »

we need a repubilican kid claiming he will not take an oath to the queen standing alongside this kid who will not take an oath to any god!

I'd love to see two eleven year old' doing this!

And ,more'so, watch the daily mail reporting on it!

If only for the craic!

A gay agnostic republican!

endacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

A gay agnostic republican!

You know of such a republican?!?

the_syco

The Pratt didn't want to take the oath, so wasn't allowed in. Simples.

It'd be like wanting to be part of ÓSF but being a loyalist that believes Ireland should join the UK...

endacl

the_syco wrote: »

The Pratt didn't want to take the oath, so wasn't allowed in. Simples.

It'd be like wanting to be part of ÓSF but being a loyalist that believes Ireland should join the UK...

Not wanting to lie made him a prat? Thinking that, while spelling 'prat' incorrectly, makes you look a bit of a prat tbh...

Delirium

endacl wrote: »

Not wanting to lie made him a prat? Thinking that, while spelling 'prat' incorrectly, makes you look a bit of a prat tbh...

the kids surname is Pratt, it's a pun;)

gbee

I'm an atheist, the scouts are a Christian org with a belief in God system. Fine, I've no problem with that, I admire the boy for standing up for himself but well understand that admitted atheists could not attend.

MrPudding

It is all very well saying that it is a christian organisation and if the child does not want to take the oath then he should not be able to join, but that, to an extent makes light of what is actually an issue here.

This is a organisation for children that has an exemption to discrimination legislation that give it free reign to discriminate against a child based on their, or their parents belief. We, as in most of the regulars on this forum, believe that schools should not be allowed to do this, why should the scouts be any different?

I joined the Army Cadets when I live in Northern Ireland, basically scouts with guns. They did not have any religiously discriminating joining policies, nor would they have been allowed to have one.

Would it be acceptable for a golf club to only allow christian to join? Why does the scouts have an exemption?

MrP

pauldla

MrPudding wrote: »

It is all very well saying that it is a christian organisation and if the child does not want to take the oath then he should not be able to join, but that, to an extent makes light of what is actually an issue here.

This is a organisation for children that has an exemption to discrimination legislation that give it free reign to discriminate against a child based on their, or their parents belief. We, as in most of the regulars on this forum, believe that schools should not be allowed to do this, why should the scouts be any different?

I joined the Army Cadets when I live in Northern Ireland, basically scouts with guns. They did not have any religiously discriminating joining policies, nor would they have been allowed to have one.

Would it be acceptable for a golf club to only allow christian to join? Why does the scouts have an exemption?

MrP

Well, should schools be allowed to do this? If somebody wants to set up a school that teaches a creationist curriculum, and only accepts students that subscribe to that belief, I'd say why not? So long as they don't get a penny of state money, and also teach the core curriculum, good luck to them.

The Army Cadets are not quite the same thing, as it is a state-run body. Do the Scouts receive any state funding?

MrPudding

pauldla wrote: »

Well, should schools be allowed to do this? If somebody wants to set up a school that teaches a creationist curriculum, and only accepts students that subscribe to that belief, I'd say why not? So long as they don't get a penny of state money, and also teach the core curriculum, good luck to them.

The Army Cadets are not quite the same thing, as it is a state-run body. Do the Scouts receive any state funding?

Does a golf club receive state funding?

MrP

pauldla

MrPudding wrote: »

Does a golf club receive state funding?

MrP

I have no idea, sorry. How about the scouts, do you know?

Sulla Felix

pauldla wrote: »

Well, should schools be allowed to do this? If somebody wants to set up a school that teaches a creationist curriculum, and only accepts students that subscribe to that belief, I'd say why not? So long as they don't get a penny of state money, and also teach the core curriculum, good luck to them.

The Army Cadets are not quite the same thing, as it is a state-run body. Do the Scouts receive any state funding?

The only hard figures I can find for federal funding is the DoD spending a few million a year that seems to be ringfenced for the national jamboree.
On the state level coverage is patchy. It seems a some states over the past few years have removed funding, denied them their traditional preferential access to state land and restricted their fund raising initiatives in certain areas.

The wiki page is interesting. It seems to be another of those issues that America hasn't made up it's mind about, with the state and federal legislatures jousting one way or the other.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies

Dades

I'm not sure I'm outraged. I mean, the scouts have always pretty much nailed their colours to the mast.

That said, if the scouts allow for a different oath for Muslims (oh, I wonder why) then why can't they come up with some tiny change that allow him swear his allegiance to the scouts or something.

MagicMarker

I think it's poor form that a charity that is set up for children should be allowed to discriminate against children on the basis of religion.

If the scouts profess themselves to be an inclusive organisation then they should be all inclusive.

Bear Grylls (Chief Scout) - "Scouting has something to offer everyone, no matter your religion, ethnicity or belief, and I'm so proud that we offer an environment for people of all backgrounds to come together and enjoy themselves."

Chris Foster (Scout Spokesman) - "There are an awful lot of people out there who still think that scouts are just a Christian-based organisation whereas it encompasses all different faiths. It doesn't matter who you are, what you are or what colour your skin is or what faith you are."

Also, the Scouts seem to be selective when it comes to their own policies, as they gave honourary badges last year to the likes of Stephen Fry and Terry Pratchett.

Mickeroo

Had no idea the scouts were christian based at all before this thread!

MrPudding

pauldla wrote: »

I have no idea, sorry. How about the scouts, do you know?

TBH, it was a bit of a rhetorical question. You seem to be trying to say that as long as there is no state funding they can do what they want, I was trying to point out that not getting state funding, a golf club, does not mean the organisation can discriminate.

I don't know if the scouts receive state funding, but I don't think it is relevant. Private organisations and businesses still have to comply with discrimination legislation unless, like the church, schools and the scouts, they have an exemption. I would question whether, in the 21st century, a organisation that is for kids and supposedly prides itself on inclusion, should be allowed to legally discriminate against a growing section of the population.

MrP

MagicMarker

The Scouts are a charity, so they would get state funding in the form of tax breaks. Not that it makes a difference.

pauldla

MrPudding wrote: »

TBH, it was a bit of a rhetorical question. You seem to be trying to say that as long as there is no state funding they can do what they want, I was trying to point out that not getting state funding, a golf club, does not mean the organisation can discriminate.

I don't know if the scouts receive state funding, but I don't think it is relevant. Private organisations and businesses still have to comply with discrimination legislation unless, like the church, schools and the scouts, they have an exemption. I would question whether, in the 21st century, a organisation that is for kids and supposedly prides itself on inclusion, should be allowed to legally discriminate against a growing section of the population.

MrP

Ah, I see. Didn't quite understand why you were asking that. Sorry, long day at work.

Well, that is what I'm saying. If they are a private, theistic organisation, they get to call the shots on who they will accept. I might not like their admissions policy (and from the posts above - I too am learning loads about the scouts reading this - it seems their policy is a little confused, to put it mildly), but it's their ball. Now, if they have found workarounds for kids with other beliefs, eg Muslims, you would imagine they could work something out for kids who profess to be atheists. In that sense I think they have treated young master Pratt rather unfairly.

BTW, would it be true to say that golf clubs etc do discriminate, but that they are not allowed to discriminate on grounds of ethnicity, religious belief, etc? After all, we all discriminate, in the strict sense of the word. It's what stops us from eating our shoes for breakfast.

Wereghost

Mickeroo wrote: »

Had no idea the scouts were christian based at all before this thread!

I was a little surprised by it, but I probably knew at some point as I used to be a Cub Scout.

MagicMarker wrote: »

The Scouts are a charity, so they would get state funding in the form of tax breaks. Not that it makes a difference.

In that case, they probably shouldn't be allowed to ostracise kids whose parents' income contributes to their funding. The whole thing is kind of absurd, anyway. How can a ten-year-old possibly have an informed position on the existence or non-existence of a deity?

Grayson

I just read the article. How come he attended for 9 months first?

MrPudding

pauldla wrote: »

BTW, would it be true to say that golf clubs etc do discriminate, but that they are not allowed to discriminate on grounds of ethnicity, religious belief, etc? After all, we all discriminate, in the strict sense of the word. It's what stops us from eating our shoes for breakfast.

They discriminate against non-members, but they can't discriminate against an applicant for membership on a protected ground. So they can say "you are getting in because you aren't a member" but they can't say, "you can't be a member because you don't believe in god."

Grayson wrote: »

I just read the article. How come he attended for 9 months first?

You kind of join on a provisional basis and then after a period you make your membership official, become "invested."

MrP

krudler

""Don't do what Donny Don't does"..sigh, they could have made this clearer"

Stercus Accidit

krudler wrote: »

""Don't do what Donny Don't does"..sigh, they could have made this clearer"

Didn't Bart join so he could get a pocket knife in that episode? Perhaps if we give the atheist child a knife he will be happy enough with that, all the better to slaughter a lamb on the dark alter of satan at the next black mass.