At it again- more traveller fighting

kstand

Pardon me for bringing up a point of order, but why are the HSE paying thjese rents?
I thought the HSE was the Health Services Authority?
I live in England but am from Clare so curious to know why the HSE are paying these rents.
I woudl feel very aggrieved if I had bought during the boom and then found myself living in an estate where I had planned to spend most of my days only to find it blighted with these sort of people, the problems they bring and the knawing realisation that the house was worth less than I paid for it, partly down to the individuals the government had places beside me.
Maiden, your situation sounds terrible. However bad it is now, I cannot but believe it will be much worse before long.
Only a matter of time before people take the law into their own hands - this is real breeding grounds for extreme right wing politics and that may well be where this is headed.

maiden

I reckon the HSE are paying money to landlords that are not registered anywhere, They are crying every week trying to save money, cutting front line services, well HSE there u go it's simple only pay to landlords that are registered on the PRTB and for tax!

I have no idea why the HSE are paying it, its comes under their supplementary welfare allowance scheme and I have no problem it being paid under these conditions:

The landllords are above board and are paying their taxes on the property, which obviously this is not the case

and, the tenants are law abiding

Clareman

Folks,

If you want to discuss State Benefits, go to that forum, if you want to discuss Legal Issues, go to that forum, I don't think a regional forum is the place to discuss the ills of the whole country.

sawi

I don't agree mod it's all part of the argument where it be political or legal. Because its our town our area that is being ruined by these people. I have stated earlier I know first hand as I had the privladge living next these people and know the stress and fear that it brought. But the worst part was getting up every morning and going to work knowing its your tax that pays for them.

poppyvally

Clareboy wrote: »

I wonder what the do-gooders and the bleeding hearts who have supported and stood up for Travellers down through the years have to say about the latest outbreak of savagery. I would love to hear what they have to say.

They'd probably tell us about their deprived unhappy childhood.

Claregirl

On a sunny day it feels like the Israeli security wall at the West Bank. Just one family is living there, kept company by 24-hour security, provided at an additional annual cost of €137,500. As we are leaving, a council official asks how we gained entry, completing the sense of exclusion. We explain that the gates were open and ask whether the resident family has visiting rights.

Oh dear God! That really makes my blood boil. Why do the council have to provide Security?? I think it's been well documented in the local press the amount of money spent by the council both providing accommodation and the repeated repairs that are carried out.

I remember years ago an Estate in Lees Road specially built for traveller accommodation beautiful woodland surroundings with low walls lovely houses and room for caravans.

They completely destroyed the place doors, architrave skirting all removed and used as firewood an absolute disgrace.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2011/0428/ireland/traveller-costs-in-clare-criticised-152750.html

I've had a hard life, from humble beginnings, I've experienced multiple losses, racisim (Irish living in the UK in the 80's) - I have never behaved in an antisocial manner tho - It's no justification for what's been happening in our town for the last few years.

The points been made already in this thread if I took off waving a hatchet around I'd be locked up there'd be no truce, mediation or any other such sh*te.

Balagan

maiden wrote: »

The estate i live in has a dilemma:

We have over 130 houses, we reckon 80 are rented out

Of those 80 we reckon 65 are receiving rent allowance from the HSE,

65 houses rec RA but only 11 of these houses are registered with the PRTB

So can anyone tell me why the HSE are paying rent cheques to 54 landlords every month, who are not registered anywhere and are breaking the law. And have no accountability when their tenants destroy everything in sight

We have brought this to the attention of every councillor in town and they are not interested.

54 houses approx in one estate, how many in Ennis, Clare, the whole country??

Stop the HSE paying out to non compliant landlords and two things will happen, one the landlords will start paying their tax (more revenue) and the HSE will save millions a year!

The buck has to stop somewhere and imo it should be at the door of the HSE

The Community Welfare Officers were employed by the HSE but, for over a year now, the CWOs are not employed by the HSE but rather by the Department of Social Protection and are now known as Department of Social Protection representatives. It is confusing because many of them are still working out of the HSE offices. They administer Rent Supplement as well as the other payments under the Supplementary Allowance Scheme.

As far as I know, the vast majority of 'problem' i.e., anti-social tenants in private estates in Clare are on Rent Supplement and are not placed there under the Town Council's social housing schemes - the latter being a scheme where the Council places responsible tenants in private estates. Council tenants, be they in council housing or on social housing schemes, never receive Rent Supplement and they pay a portion of their income, be it from work or benefits, under a differential rent system, to the Council. If tenants placed in private housing by the Council were causing problems, there would be a come back on them because they have signed Council leases and can get the heave-ho if they act up too much. The Rent Supplement rentals are private with the landlord, many of whom are that old bug bear from times past, absentee landlords, and they don't give a flying-you-know what about what hell they are visiting on their neighbours as long as they get their rent into their bank account every week and hold on to their houses while they live in peace and quiet in Dublin or Australia or Canada or out in the suburbs of Ennis, far away from the hell their tenants are causing.

It is a scandal if the Department of Social Protection are paying our Rent Supplement to unregistered landlords. The Rent Supplement tenants are not under the remit of the Council as they are not their tenants under any scheme and so the only recourse when some are involved in anti-social behaviour is to call the Gardai and make complaints, which, of course, can put your own safety on the line. And you have to be prepared to go to Court if necessary. If you are lucky there will be a strong residents Committee to help but with so many absentee landlords, the Residents Committees are not strong and it seems the Gardai tend to take the complaints of owner-occupiers more seriously than the complaints of law-abiding rental tenants, privately paying or receiving the Rent Supplement, who just want a peaceful life. There is a gap in the legislation which makes it well nigh impossible to force anti social tenants out if the landlord won't cooperate and evict them. Could the Dept of Social Protection not commence to operate a 'three strikes and you're out' policy with regard to Rent Supplement tenants.

There is an irony in all of this in that it is only now that the antisocial behaviour has spread into private estates and onto public roadways and schools, churches and courthouses etc., that the people of Ennis are getting upset and speaking out. The antisocial thugs have longed lived in Ennis and indeed other towns in Co. Clare and have caused all kinds of horror and upset to their neighbours but society didn't give a damn about that because their neighbours were from the poorer part of society. It has now spread. It always does.

kstand

Clareman wrote: »

Folks,

If you want to discuss State Benefits, go to that forum, if you want to discuss Legal Issues, go to that forum, I don't think a regional forum is the place to discuss the ills of the whole country.

I think personally its part of a much wider and valid discussion. At the end of the day, it is the tax-payer who is paying for all of this and in many cases, to have these individuals rent the house next door to them - not to talk of their free-legal aid etc.
Far too much pandering to these people. The system has been built to suit them and they know how to play it. And it will get worse if this is let to fester which no doubt it will be.

Clareman

Ok folks,

I know I'm coming across as very heavy handed and some of you don't agree, the reasoning behind the Mod Notes, the warnings, the banning is that on boards.ie we will not tolerate any racist commentary, we deem any labeling of a complete segment of a community as racism. We also cannot discuss ongoing legal cases, legal precedent was giving in court where publishers or commentary that could impact on a court case were held in contempt of court.

Finally, Regional Forums are for discussing issues relating to the area covered by the forum, the mods/cmods of these forums are normally expierenced posters in these areas and are able to give informed/unbiased coverage to topics for discussion, we are not supposed to know the ins and outs of a wide range of other issues so we are not in a place to discuss State Benefits or Legal issues, there are forums for that which have very informed posters and mods who will be able to discuss the issues.

So far this discussion has gone fine although it has needed a lot of extra work from the mods, we do not want to close this thread but if posters can't keep the discussion in line with that a Regional Forum is about and within the Rules of Posting we will have no option but to close it.

If you don't agree with my modding feel free to discuss with my co-mods or CMods (list on bottom of forum page) or to discuss with an Admin, either that to open a topic in Feedback or of course you can PM me, any on thread discussion of my modding will lead to a ban from here for at least a week.

Sorry I had to write this but I just wanted to let you know the reasoning behind our warnings and modding as well as to reaffirm our stance.

CptSternn

Balagan wrote: »

But the interviewer fails to address, in any way, the question of why the Travellers were moved on from that area outside Ennis. There are indeed laws which prevent such encampments and which led the Co Council, at significant expense, to have the encampment moved, but why, in the interests of even minimally balanced reporting, did the interviewer not speak to the locals about the effect the encampment had on them?

Was that not the encampment on the bypass that was moved? It was an extreme hazard. On more than one day I had a child or a ball fly in front of my car when passing by. Add to that they also had taken over the road next to the Abbey and that is the ONLY place in the county where you can do your motorbike license test. I had to wait an extra NINE MONTHS and they pushed my test date back THREE TIMES because they could not get them to move. I finally just had them schedule me in LIMERICK and had to drive 40 minutes to go take my test as it took them over a YEAR to finally shift them from there.

There were articles in the local papers about this whole ordeal. Do you know why they were not offered housing here? Because they already had secured housing in the NORTH! They had just decided they no longer wanted to live there so they moved down to Clare and took up residence on the side of the motorway, just abandoning the homes they currently had, made available by the council authorities in N. Ireland. Can't remember where exactly it was, but it was in the article in the Clare Champion.

It would have been good if he had probed into what the advocate thinks would satisfy the Travellers. Some do not want to live in the group housing provided at immense cost. Some who do live in that housing feud and fight and some houses have been burned down. Yet more are housed in Council estates and it is a minefield to house some as many don't want to be housed close to other Travellers with whom they might not be getting on and, while in the Council estates, some maintain their traditional way of life which is not that of the settled people they live among.

And there is this...

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11701:traveller-housing-legal-quandary&catid=74:general&Itemid=60

She claimed the views of Travellers were constantly ignored when group housing schemes were being built, like the option of continuing traditions such as looking after horses or having a mobile home on the site, permitted in other local authorities.

Stating some Traveller dwellings are too small to accommodate large families with up to nine children

So it wasn't they were REFUSED housing or discriminated against, the ones who are without housing have REFUSED it because it didn't have enough room for MORE THAN NINE CHILDREN and STABLES and a place to park their MOBILE HOMES. Seriously? Do they get to ask for those things? If I was offered a home by the council, could I refuse it because it doesn't have nine bedrooms and stables?

I have been on the housing list for six years now. I check with them every few months, but alas, no joy. Again, the Clare Champion has done a few articles on this...

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7615:more-than-3000-on-council-housing-waiting-list&catid=74:general&Itemid=60

As did The Clare Courier...

http://www.clarecourier.ie/article.asp?id=3514

Some people have been on the list OVER 12 YEARS!

So per the lady in the article and anyone else who just shows up here in Clare, just because they are Travellers are they really expecting to get served first before all the people who have lived here their whole lives? Or people who have been on the list for over ten years? When you talk about equality, how is allowing them to just jump in the queue so to speak when it comes to house in front of all the people who have lived here and WAITED on the list fair to everyone else? The lady in the article CHOSE to live in a caravan her whole life. Now that she is old she wants a home, but sure, why should everyone else IN CLARE suddenly be put on hold because she has decided to move to Clare and thinks she needs to be served first? I am sure there are many elderly people on that list that are just as needy as she is, why should she get special treatment?

And then there is the related elephant in the room which Village magazine dodged entirely - the amount of private housing estates in Clare and elsewhere which are now in a bad way because some of the Travellers now renting in them, are involved in anti-social behaviour to the great distress of their neighbours and leaving houses in their immediate vicinity both unrentable and unsaleable.

That is the big elephant in the room sure. Not all Traveller families are anti-social, but there are many who are, and I have seen that sort of thing first hand. My estate is currently half empty because every family has been run out by one family. We have had to ring the Gards nine times in the past six months for problems we have had, thats not including the times the other families have had to ring so we see the Gards there about once a week or every ten days. The other remaining two rental families in the estate have already given notice and are leaving as soon as their lease is up, which will leave us, the anti social family, and two other families who made the mistake of buying their homes here and are stuck. We have since installed a €1,500 monitored security system and surrounded the house in CCTV. Although it has slowed down the problems, it has not stopped them. On a good note every time we have had an issue where the Gards had to be involved we had great evidence as they seem not to care in the slightest if they are caught on camera vandalising homes, breaking windows, throwing rocks at cars, or stealing oil. They even admitted it in every case to the Gards, but since they are all underaged nothing every happened other than they received a verbal warning from the Gards. Ten children in a three bedroom house and not one of them has ever been in a school. We point this out to the Gards as well, who tell us there is nothing they can do about that either.

There are five empty houses which have been so for five years or more, because no one else is daft enough to move in. The other two rental families who did move in just did so in the past few months, they were caught off guard as the anti-social family went on holidays all summer and were gone for like five months in their caravan (which is always parked in their front garden when they are home). Those families, unlike ourselves who did a bit of research, had no clue what they were getting into until they returned back.

It could be worse, I have friends who got royally screwed when they were one of the first families who bought homes in <Mod Snip>. They bought before it was even finished. Now they have an underwater mortgage and are stuck there for life and it is a war zone.

The thing that really bothers me is someone is going to say I am a racist because of my views. I do not have a racist bone in my body. I moved in to this house even after I knew who else lived here and was warned by the estate agent. We were told the previous two families who lived here only made it a few months each before being run off and had to sign a waiver stating we were told this before hand. I have lived around the world and in some dodgy places when I was younger, so you can't phase me with that sort of thing. It still does not make it acceptable though, so I take issue with this sort of behaviour. And I don't care that they are Travellers. If ANY group whether it be Nigerians, Americans, Welsh, or even a group of Japanese who were behaving in this manner I would call them out on it as well. This isn't about racist or heritage, it is about behavior. Socio-economic issues in a group does not give them license to act out in this manner in a civil society. I'll call out any group which thinks because of how rough they may have had it, it somehow justifies them behaving in an anti-social manner.

I feel bad for the home owners who have empty houses here. Because of this ongoing ordeal, they will be empty for years to come. I expect to be living alone in this estate with that family and the two others who are stuck here for some time. It's sad as it is a nice area, built in '98 and the homes are lovely. No one will be living in them anytime soon though.

pilate 1

all seems to be quiet at the mo! guess we should all be thankful till the next bout of horizontal mumbo jumbo sleep well all and rem while youre dreaming
other sections of society are working;)

cfc1888

Whats been going on in Ennis is a mirror image of every town in the country. Without meaning to sound "racist or something", this country's justice system needs to wake up and start prosecuting and jailing these "feuding families".Its a joke of a system.Words fail to describe how sickened I am to see these "feuding families"getting slaps on the wrists time after time.Different laws for different people methinks.Its a mad country.:( I love going to work every day knowing that my hard earned wage is going to these "feuders" and giving them free legal aid in court. Its a mad world. It truly is. :mad::mad::mad::mad:

CptSternn

maiden wrote: »

Of those 80 we reckon 65 are receiving rent allowance from the HSE,

65 houses rec RA but only 11 of these houses are registered with the PRTB

So can anyone tell me why the HSE are paying rent cheques to 54 landlords every month, who are not registered anywhere and are breaking the law. And have no accountability when their tenants destroy everything in sight

Did you contact the PRTB?

https://www.prtb.ie/faq.aspx#Q5

There is an online database of ALL rental properties you can access from right there.

https://www.prtb.ie/public_registrations.aspx

Further down in that FAQ has this information:

The Registration Enforcements section of the PRTB may be contacted by phone on (01) 6350 600 or by email on enforcement@prtb.ie

That is the contact information for the enforcement department where you can report anyone not registered.

So check all the addresses, see who isn't registered, and then pass along your findings. If you can find a few and they get caught out, you can probably get them to look into the whole estate then sure.

cfc1888

CptSternn wrote: »

Did you contact the PRTB?

https://www.prtb.ie/faq.aspx#Q5

There is an online database of ALL rental properties you can access from right there.

https://www.prtb.ie/public_registrations.aspx

Further down in that FAQ has this information:



That is the contact information for the enforcement department where you can report anyone not registered.

So check all the addresses, see who isn't registered, and then pass along your findings. If you can find a few and they get caught out, you can probably get them to look into the whole estate then sure.

Is it not up to the apes in government to check out who they are giving taxpayers money to? These Fueders deserve all the tax payers dosh. It's culture and all that.pure discrimination so it is when anyone says anything against the Fueders.A but it's the minority of Fueders giving the rest a bad name.ya right!!!!! Its about time some of these Fueders were locked up for a long time. Over to you judge

CptSternn

Did anyone hear Garda Chief Superintendent Kerin on Clare.FM this morning? He addressed reporters who asked about anti-social problems in Ennis and other parts of Clare. He said it was one of the largest problems they have to deal with and are looking at solutions. What he says he wants to implement is like an ASBO system for anti-social families. They would be issued to any families whose behaviour in an estate was anti-social and they would be taken to court where the effected would have the option to address the court publicly and describe the problems. It would be like a three strike system, as after two of these new ASBOs the family could then be forced by the council to leave the estate if they receive one more.

I think that's a great idea. The way he spoke it sounded like they already had the wheels in motion for this one and were going to be starting using this system pretty soon to deal with the overwhelming number of anti-social family complaints they are having.

kstand

A great idea for that estate - but what about they will end up next? It doesnt addrwess the problem - it just moves it on from one place to the next. Custodial sentences and community service might have more of an effect. An ASBO to some of these would be like putting a teenager on the naughty step.

Davyhal

This 3 strikes system would work, if it weren't for the fact that the punishment is just to move them to a different estate, again funded by taxpayers generally, where they begin again until they receive another 3 strikes and the whole thing repeats itself again... Also, you often hear of cases when such characters are rehoused that (1) they don't believe the house is up to scratch for their often large families or (2) they don't like certain people in other estates. Personally, punishment should be an actual deterant, such as time locked up or else community service etc... Simply threatening to move them to a different estate does not seem like enough of a deterant to me. Also, the point of being held in prison or community service is not only to punish, but also to rehabilitate and educate... Moving estate does not rehabilitate or educate in my opinion

Johnboy1951

Davyhal wrote: »

This 3 strikes system would work, if it weren't for the fact that the punishment is just to move them to a different estate, again funded by taxpayers generally, where they begin again until they receive another 3 strikes and the whole thing repeats itself again... Also, you often hear of cases when such characters are rehoused that (1) they don't believe the house is up to scratch for their often large families or (2) they don't like certain people in other estates. Personally, punishment should be an actual deterant, such as time locked up or else community service etc... Simply threatening to move them to a different estate does not seem like enough of a deterant to me. Also, the point of being held in prison or community service is not only to punish, but also to rehabilitate and educate... Moving estate does not rehabilitate or educate in my opinion

What kind of community service would you have in mind? :eek:

[-0-]

CptSternn wrote: »

Did anyone hear Garda Chief Superintendent Kerin on Clare.FM this morning? He addressed reporters who asked about anti-social problems in Ennis and other parts of Clare. He said it was one of the largest problems they have to deal with and are looking at solutions. What he says he wants to implement is like an ASBO system for anti-social families. They would be issued to any families whose behaviour in an estate was anti-social and they would be taken to court where the effected would have the option to address the court publicly and describe the problems. It would be like a three strike system, as after two of these new ASBOs the family could then be forced by the council to leave the estate if they receive one more.

I think that's a great idea. The way he spoke it sounded like they already had the wheels in motion for this one and were going to be starting using this system pretty soon to deal with the overwhelming number of anti-social family complaints they are having.

Terrible idea. What do you think happens the family who present to court, once they get home and back to normality?

golfball37

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What kind of community service would you have in mind? :eek:

Take their assets or their dole.

golfball37

The 3 strikes idea has merit but what will happen to anyone who dares to speak up against people who have no regard for their fellow human beings?

Perhaps a written affadavit would suffice which protects the annonimity of the testifier?

pilate 1

though the thread is running a while we seem to be going in circles a bit. the law should be the law and if applied properly it would surely make(regardless of ethnic background) criminals responsible for their actions !taxpayers should be entitled to that!guess i should be signing this niave:o

Lady Chatterton

pilate 1 wrote: »

the thread is running a while we seem to be going in circles a bit.

I agree, I think this thread has run its course but I'll leave it open for the time being.

Balagan

[-0-] wrote: »

Terrible idea. What do you think happens the family who present to court, once they get home and back to normality?

If they are lucky, they'll merely have their car and house windows smashed up. Unlucky, and they'll find out what a knife, machete or slashook wound feels like.

If the Superintendent is really serious, then let us wait and see if the latest series of criminal acts result in real sentences. If they do, then people might take more seriously his statement about letting the neighbours of the antisocial lot face them in court.

poppyvally

golfball37 wrote: »

what will happen to anyone who dares to speak up against people who have no regard for their fellow human

A very important point.....intimidation of witnesses

CptSternn

I don't know if he meant they HAD to show up in court or they COULD show up in court. Either way once they reveal the details of the incident more than likely they will know of course who made the complaint.

I have no problem what so every testifying in court against these types. I have as I said had to ring my home owners group / landlord / Gards six times in the last six months over a family just like this. Prior to this I worked security and on two separate occasions had to testify in court against some similar groups, both times they threatened to kill me if I showed up, both times they did nothing at all and ended up having to go before a judge and go what was coming to them.

So three for three so far. They live off fear. Don't let them scare you into thinking they are all that, as the reality is they really wouldn't try something as bold as going after a witness, especially if it were not part of their own group.

angelfire9

I agree, by and large they get away with their behaviour through bullying & intimidation and if you stand up to a bully they will back off

Having said that, I live adjacent to one of the families involved in this latest "feud" and the majority of the anti social behaviour around here is perpetrated by children under 12 who being under the age of criminal responsibility are not subject, nor can they be subject to ASBO's or any criminal sanctions

CptSternn

angelfire9 wrote: »

I agree, by and large they get away with their behaviour through bullying & intimidation and if you stand up to a bully they will back off

Having said that, I live adjacent to one of the families involved in this latest "feud" and the majority of the anti social behaviour around here is perpetrated by children under 12 who being under the age of criminal responsibility are not subject, nor can they be subject to ASBO's or any criminal sanctions

Hey, welcome to the club!

Same thing. 99% of the problems we have are with the children. Then again, the parents show absolutely no interest in the children as they are never outside supervising them, even though they had kids like 1 and 2 years old outside running around in the streets. They don't send them to school, and the Gards are at the house all the time and they have yet to ever even give two shytes it appears.

So yes, the children are behaving badly but they have no proper parental guidance so it actually is the parents fault. Then again it was probably exactly how they were raised so it's a continuing cycle. That by no means justified the behavior by any means, but you can see the pattern and unless the state intervenes it will repeat again.

That's why I am hoping this new childrens rights law they are trying to put into effect will address some of this. You can't blame a kid for running around and acting like a savage if he has never been told how to behave or shown what society expects of him or her. The parents should be held accountable for this unacceptable situation.

poppyvally

would it surprise anyone to know the traveller population in Ireland is 29,000. We have a higher proportion of other ethnic groups. Not talking about the Chinese who've been here for generations & are mainly self sustaining. It just feels like there are millions of travellers about the place.

pilate 1

poppyvally wrote: »

would it surprise anyone to know the traveller population in Ireland is 29,000. We have a higher proportion of other ethnic groups. Not talking about the Chinese who've been here for generations & are mainly self sustaining. It just feels like there are millions of travellers about the place.

lets break it down.29,000 .half old/honest/very young/living their ethnic lifestyle.=14,000.take out big urban areas ie dublin galway cork limerick etc.must leave bout 4,000 .break it down by county etc etc.point is there cannot be any more than possibly 10 people in the county causing all the hassel!regardless of ethnic background it should be easy to sort out:mad: