At it again- more traveller fighting

JustLen

***** MOD NOTE ******* 17/10/12


PLEASE NOTE - we are no longer permitted to discuss the specifics of recent incidents which are currently before the courts.

It is absolutely imperative that we do not prejudice any current or future court proceedings.

Any further discussions have to be of a general nature otherwise the thread will be locked.

****************************************************************************

The road from the rowan tree hostel down to the tech in Ennis is blocked off by Gardai.
Friend of mine was passing and there seemed to be a crash, garda car at the scene was rammed into and a number of known people started attacking each other with slash hooks etc

So inthe last few weeks we have fighting in the courthouse, slashooks in the cathedral and now free for all's where gardai are being attacked
Where does it end?

Its a joke that the tax payer is keeping these <Mod Snip> people in money so they can carry on with this ****e, i bet if this was the states the cops wouldn't be long fatally shooting one of the attackers and they would be right in doing so.

When is enough going to be enough?

JustLen

Sorry maybe i should have said, 'these people that are acting like animals'

Clareman

Folks,

Threads like this tend to descend into tirade of racism or generalisations or they start discussing ongoing legal cases (Which can't be allowed according to Irish law).

I will leave this thread open but if ANYONE breaches any of the rules or starts making racist comments I will hand out bans.

maiden

I came across this just after it happened, it was the scariest thing! It was like a scene from beirut, the arrests had already being made but there were kids screaming, a guard with a hatchet, it was mayhem...... A van, car and garda car very badly damaged

CptSternn

http://clare.fm/news/five-arrested-after-incident-ennis

Carazy

Courthouses, Churchs, Schools, hospitals, Main roads/roundabouts. There is no area that is too public for viloence by the looks of things.

Johnboy1951

five-arrested-after-incident-ennis

An "incident"?

Surely there must be a more accurate description of what occurred .......

ro95

No need to be biased

angelfire9

JustLen wrote: »

The road from the rowan tree hostel down to the tech in Ennis is blocked off by Gardai.
Friend of mine was passing and there seemed to be a crash, garda car at the scene was rammed into and a number of known people started attacking each other with slash hooks etc

So inthe last few weeks we have fighting in the courthouse, slashooks in the cathedral and now free for all's where gardai are being attacked
Where does it end?

Its a joke that the tax payer is keeping these <Mod Snip> people in money so they can carry on with this ****e, i bet if this was the states the cops wouldn't be long fatally shooting one of the attackers and they would be right in doing so.

When is enough going to be enough?

I wonder if the Armed Response Unit spent a bit of time in Ennis over the next week or so would things calm down? (i.e. give the instigators pause for thought and maybe things would blow over) or would the people involved just wait til the ARU went back to Limerick or Cork and kick it all off again??

Genuine question from someone who's better half was called to deal with this evenings fracas

sawi

Whats wrong with this country and this town of Ennis. I go to work pay my tax"s and put up with
loads of pressure and stress and than I read and this sort of stuff with my own eye"s. When will the
authorities DO their job and sort all this ant social stuff out. I have written in a tread about how I had
to leave a house in Lissaniska because of this antisocial behavior. But we as citizens of this state need
to stand up to these people and stop giving them money to lie in bed and wreck the house and beds I
am paying for in my tax"s.. Sorry for rant but I am sick of these people now must go to work!!

Balagan

angelfire9 wrote: »

I wonder if the Armed Response Unit spent a bit of time in Ennis over the next week or so would things calm down? (i.e. give the instigators pause for thought and maybe things would blow over) or would the people involved just wait til the ARU went back to Limerick or Cork and kick it all off again??

Genuine question from someone who's better half was called to deal with this evenings fracas

At this point, it would be be my guess that they would do it in front of the ARU.
And hovering helicopters. And their own grannies and small children, let alone my granny or small child. They just don't care.

CptSternn

Have ye not got the memo yet?

THIS IS THUNDERDOME!



But seriously, our County Council gets paid to take in dangerous families being relocated out of some of the worst estates in the country. Those families are then put in houses paid for by the HSE owned by landlords who live in Dublin and could care less what happens because they never have to see or hear about it, they just get a sweet cheque every month from the HSE so they are happy.

We however are the people who are left to have to deal with this.

So like I said, it's becoming more and more like THUNDERDOME here. We have to organise and take back our town because with the politicians on the take and unwilling to help us and the Gards severely out gunned with a lack of resources, which then leads to their total lack of motivation to do anything, there is no justice, there is just us.

CptSternn

http://clare.fm/news/3-injured-and-five-detained-after-ennis-ramming-incident

Three people including a garda have been hospitalised after a violent incident in Ennis during which a patrol car was rammed.
Five others were arrested and are being held at Ennis Garda Station .
This incident happened at around 6.30 last night at the Maid of Erin Roundabout in Clare's County Town.
Its understood that one vehicle, containing members of the travelling community followed a van and then rammed it and then ploughed into a garda patrol car that came upon the scene.
The car then allegedly circled the roundabout a number of times colliding with several other vehicles.
In total three people including a member of the gardaí were injured and all were taken to Limerick Regional hospital for treatment.
The scene was then sealed off from the Maid of Eirn Roundabout to Club Bridge for a forensic examination.
During a follow up operation, five people , three men and two women were arrested and are being held for road traffic and public order offences- a number of weapons including a hatchet were also seized.

CptSternn

They should be locked away for life. Using a car as a weapon, ramming people or other cars, in America is considered attempted murder. They will lock you away for 30+ years. That should happen here.

Secondly, they rammed a Garda with the car. Attempted murder of a police officer in America is life, no parole.

Finally, why are they not being charged under the new organised crime laws? These incidents, four in the past week are all related. Under the most recently legislation three or more people working as a group to break laws is considered a crime syndicate and can be charged as such. Why are these people not being prosecuted under the laws that would be used to prosecute anyone else in society who engages in this behaviour?

The ones who fought in the Cathedral should get 10 years each for doing such in a church/on church grounds and then hit with the organised crime laws to keep them in another 10 years. I'm betting if they started handing out some real sentences to these people and there were actual consequences they wouldn't be so quick to you know, hit a Garda with their car trying to kill them.

golfball37

Can we not just cut off their dole as a start?

There's nothing racist about saying these people are vermin either btw. The people who bring private dis-agreements into the public domain with violence.

I would lie for a Gard if he got in trouble for beating a few of them. Something really needs to be done in Ireland, society is feral.

Lady Chatterton

It is completely understandable that people are very upset by these recent events but please keep it civil, no more talk about vermin or lying for Gardaí please.

Palmach

ro95 wrote: »

No need to be biased

Yes there is.

CptSternn

They operate as a criminal organisation and should be charged as such. The events which have transpired over the past few days were all directly related. Under Irish Law, three or more people working together to break the law or subvert justice count as organised crime and can be prosecuted under strict new laws as such.

No reason to lie to anyone or label a whole group as a racial slur, just ENFORCE the LAW and treat them like everyone else who breaks the law and the problem will sort itself out.

They continue to spend money on 'moderation' instead of prosecuting and jailing them, and we have seen how 'effective' this is sure. Machete fights in schools, churches, and people ramming cars filled with innocent motorists and their families.

Take off the kid gloves, the time for softly-softly is over. Enforce the law like they would for anyone else in society who engages in such behaviour. I mean, if I knocked down a Gard with my car while trying to kill someone else with my car I don't think the government would be bringing in a 'moderator' to talk things out and then send me on my merry way.

angelfire9

CptSternn wrote: »

But seriously, our County Council gets paid to take in dangerous families being relocated out of some of the worst estates in the country. Those families are then put in houses paid for by the HSE owned by landlords who live in Dublin and could care less what happens because they never have to see or hear about it, they just get a sweet cheque every month from the HSE so they are happy.

None of the families involved in last nights incident were relocated to Clare
They are all locals living here for generations

CptSternn wrote: »

They should be locked away for life. Using a car as a weapon, ramming people or other cars, in America is considered attempted murder. They will lock you away for 30+ years. That should happen here.

Secondly, they rammed a Garda with the car. Attempted murder of a police officer in America is life, no parole.

Finally, why are they not being charged under the new organised crime laws? These incidents, four in the past week are all related. Under the most recently legislation three or more people working as a group to break laws is considered a crime syndicate and can be charged as such. Why are these people not being prosecuted under the laws that would be used to prosecute anyone else in society who engages in this behaviour?

The 3 incidents in the last week are related to a family feud between 2 families I don't think to be fair it would fall under the remit of Organised Crime

You are right though, they should face, and possibly will face more serious charges than road traffic offenses or breaches of the peace
I would imagine at the moment they will be arrest under holding charges and more serious charges will be brought before it reaches court

golfball37 wrote: »

Can we not just cut off their dole as a start?

There's nothing racist about saying these people are vermin either btw. The people who bring private dis-agreements into the public domain with violence.

I would lie for a Gard if he got in trouble for beating a few of them. Something really needs to be done in Ireland, society is feral.

I don't think legislation exists whereby their dole can be touched
And the gardai don't need people lying for them there were independent witnesses not to mention Garda witnesses to last night's incident

And no one here would condone a Garda "beating a few of them" and no Garda would do it anyway the come back from the public, the ombudsman and most importantly the "victim's" family would not be worth it

kstand

Hopefully Martin Collins and the people are Pavee Point will come out and condemn what has happened in the strongest possible terms.
Legislation and prisons need to get a lot tougher for these people. I'm talking hard labour, 7 days a week. And 10 years is 10 years, no time off. No XBoxs, no frills - just hard time with the option to educate themselves while they are there. Pandering to left-wing do-gooders has lead to this sorry state. They have the same problem in Limerick City and its getting worse.

Clareboy

I wonder what the do-gooders and the bleeding hearts who have supported and stood up for Travellers down through the years have to say about the latest outbreak of savagery. I would love to hear what they have to say.

Palmach

Clareboy wrote: »

I wonder what the do-gooders and the bleeding hearts who have supported and stood up for Travellers down through the years have to say about the latest outbreak of savagery. I would love to hear what they have to say.

To be fair I don't think anyone condones this sort of behaviour.

CptSternn

How many innocent bystanders and their families had their cars wrecked during this debacle?

Balagan

Garda car rammed in Travellers' battle
VIOLENT: Five quizzed after drunk driver launches attack
http://www.herald.ie/news/garda-car-rammed-in-travellers-battle-3259209.html

ads20101

CptSternn wrote: »

How many innocent bystanders and their families had their cars wrecked during this debacle?

When I arrived the cars were still there including the Garda car that had obviously been hit hard from behind. There were at least 4 other Garda cars on the scene that did not appear damaged.

I was thinking I could've easily have been in the middle of this nasty debacle if I left work a little earlier. Scary thought!!

seachto7

all "isolated incidents" of course........

periodictable

kstand wrote: »

Hopefully Martin Collins and the people are Pavee Point will come out and condemn what has happened in the strongest possible terms.
Legislation and prisons need to get a lot tougher for these people. I'm talking hard labour, 7 days a week. And 10 years is 10 years, no time off. No XBoxs, no frills - just hard time with the option to educate themselves while they are there. Pandering to left-wing do-gooders has lead to this sorry state. They have the same problem in Limerick City and its getting worse.

I doubt Pavee point will put itself out there, least of all out of a sense of loyalty first and foremost to its own. I note their press release where they condemned the sulky race on the main Cork-Limerick road was more concerned about injuries to Travellers, animals, then the settled community, in that order "Pavee Point is concerned that all the participants involved in the event filmed placed themselves, their animals and other road users in danger".
Speaks volumes. If your actions will endanger you life, I really don't care, but under no circumstances place ANYONE else in danger.
While I'm at it, maybe it's time to pull funding from this QUANGO.

Claregirl

Palmach wrote: »

To be fair I don't think anyone condones this sort of behaviour.

The results speak for themselves this behaviour is being condoned in the actions / reactions to all the previous incidents.

When the Gardai do their job have all the evidence and the judge imposes a suspended sentence:mad:

I don't care who you are or what you're background is there is NO EXCUSE for this type of behaviour. IT SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED!

The only way to combat this type of behaviour is to have serious consequences. When it gets to the point that you cannot safely go to Church, the Bank, Barber, school or drive your car on a main road I'm sorry but enough is enough - Until there are serious sanctions and examples made this is just going to get worse.

The law abiding people of this town deserve far better:(

angelfire9

Apparently, and i didn't hear it myself but Pavee Point had someone on Clare FM yesterday saying that "society was gone this way" he was blaming the recession!!!

Shapey Fiend

You'd think they'd move one of these families. It's going to cost a fortune to police the situation and it's going to go from bad to worse even with multiple arrests.

At least now they've done something that directly impacted Gardai we might see some proper sentences carried out. Of course you'd think the incidents in and around primary schools were serious enough but nothing seems to have come of that.

the scrote

MrsD007 wrote: »

It is completely understandable that people are very upset by these recent events but please keep it civil, no more talk about vermin or lying for Gardaí please.

But these people are vermin,what else would you call them

Lady Chatterton

The Scrote, there is a very good discussion going on here and the thread will remain open as along as people are civil and their comments are balanced.

We (the Clare Mods) have repeatedly asked for posters support with this. As there are two warnings already on this thread and you've chosen to ignore them, I've no choice but to you give you some time off.

Lady Chatterton

"Three in court over longstanding Ennis Feud" - Clare FM

16 October, 2012 - 14:21

Three people have been remanded in custody in connection with a number of incidents involving feuding traveller families in the town of Ennis.

Two men and a teenager where brought before Kilrush district court in connection with a number of incidents arising out of an ongoing feud between the McDonagh and Doherty families - including Sunday night's car ramming at the Maid of Erin Roundabout

Security was high outside the courthouse in Kilrush court as armed members of the Garda Regional Response unit watched on.

http://clare.fm/news/three-court-over-longstanding-ennis-feud

kstand

does anyone know what started the feud off in the first place?
Surely its got so bad that someone from some side can come in and mediate and get them to settle their differences?

periodictable

kstand wrote: »

does anyone know what started the feud off in the first place?
Surely its got so bad that someone from some side can come in and mediate and get them to settle their differences?

Why should you ,me or anyone else pay to mediate between a group of fighting adults? Is there something special about Travellers that we treat them with kid gloves? Many of these guys are nothing but thugs, and the only thing a thug understands is force, so I'd prefer to see the full force of the law brought to bear on them and hopefully the sentence will reflect the seriousness the rest of us appear to feel this behaviour merits.
Pavee Point of course acting the ostrich on this.

CptSternn

kstand wrote: »

does anyone know what started the feud off in the first place?
Surely its got so bad that someone from some side can come in and mediate and get them to settle their differences?

It's been ongoing for years. A couple years ago when the grenade was thrown in the terraced housing and they hacked each other to bits in front of the National School they brought in one of the men who negotiated the Good Friday Agreement, at a cost of €60,000 to us, the tax payers. They did this in lieu of giving them any jail time or legal punishments.

Lot of good that did, eh?

Lady Chatterton

CptSternn wrote: »

It's been ongoing for years. A couple years ago when the grenade was thrown in the terraced housing and they hacked each other to bits in front of the National School they brought in one of the men who negotiated the Good Friday Agreement, at a cost of €60,000 to us, the tax payers. They did this in lieu of giving them any jail time or legal punishments.

Lot of good that did, eh?

Cpt Sternn, Where did you get the €60,000 figure from? Would you have a link by any chance?

kstand

Well, I'd throw the book at them myself and give them a few years hard labour - but thats not an option I'm afraid.
Legislation in Ireland will screw you if you dont tax your car or cant pay your mortgage. But years of sympathisers and human rights groups have created this situation whereby these people are a law unto themselves now. There is no short term solution. Until legislation exists to come down like a sledge-hammer on these individuals, this will continue and get worse.

angelfire9

MrsD007 wrote: »

Cpt Sternn, Where did you get the €60,000 figure from? Would you have a link by any chance?

I will find a link when I get back to the house MrsD but there was crazy money spent on mediation a few years ago

THESE are NOT the same families as was involved in that mediation which is important to note I think

Lady Chatterton

I've found two links that refer to the Good Friday mediator. It is claimed that back in 2010 Ennis Town Council spent €4,000 per month on mediation services over a 18 month period. However, the acting town clerk at the time said

“I am not in position to comment on how much this service costs the council. The cost would depend on specific mediation and standard professional fees would apply. It is not a regular monthly service so it would be difficult to put a monthly sum on it”.

"Council engages Good Friday mediator in Traveller feud"

A MEDIATOR who was involved directly with the Good Friday Agreement negotiations in Northern Ireland has been engaged by Ennis Town Council to deal with conflict issues between tenants in its housing estates.
The council is understood to be spending over €4,000 a month on the mediation service that has, among other things, been dealing with the ongoing Traveller feud in Ennis.

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3196:council-engages-good-friday-mediator-in-traveller-feud&catid=74:general&Itemid=60

http://pavee.ie/mediamonitor/?p=5215

maiden

We are not just talking about the same families, yes the church 'incident' and the 'maid of erin 'incident were the same families but the Holy Family and the Courthouse (which are connected) are another two different families.

Church and MOE = families a and b

Holy Family and Courthouse = families c and d

There is also another feud with a matchete to the arm, this hasnt happened in the town yet just in estates = families e and f

ITS TIME THE LOCAL JUDGE TOOK A STAND AND STAND UP FOR JUSTICE!! SUSPENDED SENTENCES MY EYE!

WHERE WOULD I BE IF I TOOK A HATCHET TO MY NEIGHBOUR WHO LOOKED AT ME FUNNY???

Balagan

Shapey Fiend wrote: »

You'd think they'd move one of these families. It's going to cost a fortune to police the situation and it's going to go from bad to worse even with multiple arrests.

At least now they've done something that directly impacted Gardai we might see some proper sentences carried out. Of course you'd think the incidents in and around primary schools were serious enough but nothing seems to have come of that.

Fresh prosecution commenced last Wednesday in relation to the primary school incident.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/new-charges-for-man-accused-of-wielding-slashhook-3256355.html

maiden

I would like to point out that the man up in court for the Holy Family incident is not a traveller but is married to a member of a traveller family

jonon9

What we need is a proper armed unit something like 'BOA' in Poland. They give you a warning to drop the weapon and if not you will be taken out no questions asked. None of these s***mbags will see jail time.

jonon9

maiden wrote: »

We are not just talking about the same families, yes the church 'incident' and the 'maid of erin 'incident were the same families but the Holy Family and the Courthouse (which are connected) are another two different families.

Church and MOE = families a and b

Holy Family and Courthouse = families c and d

There is also another feud with a matchete to the arm, this hasnt happened in the town yet just in estates = families e and f

ITS TIME THE LOCAL JUDGE TOOK A STAND AND STAND UP FOR JUSTICE!! SUSPENDED SENTENCES MY EYE!

WHERE WOULD I BE IF I TOOK A HATCHET TO MY NEIGHBOUR WHO LOOKED AT ME FUNNY???

What this country needs is a new prison to lock up the disease

Lady Chatterton

jonon9 wrote: »

What this country needs is a new prison to lock up the disease

Jonon9 - You've earned yourself a week off from this forum.

Lets have calm and constructive debate please

Kilnababe

1. Impound Vehicles that are not taxed, insured or NCT'd.
2. Prosecute for carrying children in vehicles not appropriate.
3. Withold all social welfare from any person convicted of anti social behaviour.

If there is still trouble call <Mod Snip>

Lady Chatterton

PLEASE NOTE - we are no longer permitted to discuss the specifics of recent incidents which are currently before the courts.

It is absolutely imperative that we do not prejudice any current or future court proceedings.

Any further discussions have to be of a general nature otherwise the thread will be locked.

angelfire9

Thats fair enough Mrs D


As Maiden pointed out there are 2 separate feuds ongoing at the moment

The one at the Holy Family which continued in the court house when the initial proceedings were brought is due soon for full hearing which will be interesting

The one at the wedding which continued at the maid of erin is due back in court today where additional charges are to be brought against 2 females involved in Sunday's incident
The 2 males and the juvenile that appeared in court yesterday will appear again today and I would expect the men & the juvenile to be remanded the women will most likely be bailed

The book of evidence in the first feud has been prepared & given to the person's involved and a full hearing & judgement on that matter will be forthcoming during the next few weeks

The book of evidence from the wedding & the Maid of Erin will most likely not be ready for service for 8 weeks minimum so the parties in court today may request bail based on the lead time for the expected full hearing of the case

Personally I am looking forward to hearing how the First case is handled by the judge as it will be Judge Durkin's first dealing with these matters
with the retirement of Judge Mangan we have a chance to see a new judge deal with these matters effectively

A few weeks will tell alot....

Balagan

Interesting article in most recent edition of Village magazine on Traveller issues in Co. Clare.

Traveller prejudice 2012
http://www.villagemagazine.ie/index.php/2012/09/traveller-prejudice-2012/

The traveller advocate interviewed (who is backed by http://www.socialentrepreneurs.ie/ ) is quoted as saying that "the violence among Travellers is often an expression of frustration that results from the powerlessness of their position, and the erasing of their identify by both assimilation and dispersal policies.

“It feeds into the issue of horizontal violence between people of that minority group because they cannot find avenues to address the wrongs done to them by people in authority”.

The late Traveller lady and her daughter who are the main subjects of the beginning of the article certainly had, and the daughter is still having, a very difficult life and care should be taken that people do not get neglected through falling between administrative stools.

But the interviewer fails to address, in any way, the question of why the Travellers were moved on from that area outside Ennis. There are indeed laws which prevent such encampments and which led the Co Council, at significant expense, to have the encampment moved, but why, in the interests of even minimally balanced reporting, did the interviewer not speak to the locals about the effect the encampment had on them?

It would have been good if he had probed into what the advocate thinks would satisfy the Travellers. Some do not want to live in the group housing provided at immense cost. Some who do live in that housing feud and fight and some houses have been burned down. Yet more are housed in Council estates and it is a minefield to house some as many don't want to be housed close to other Travellers with whom they might not be getting on and, while in the Council estates, some maintain their traditional way of life which is not that of the settled people they live among.

And then there is the related elephant in the room which Village magazine dodged entirely - the amount of private housing estates in Clare and elsewhere which are now in a bad way because some of the Travellers now renting in them, are involved in anti-social behaviour to the great distress of their neighbours and leaving houses in their immediate vicinity both unrentable and unsaleable. That said, I am well aware that there are many settled Travellers who have no involvement whatsoever in present feuds and also aware that Travellers are far from solely responsible for anti social behaviour. But the increasing lawlessness of some Travellers and the affect that is having on the whole community needs to be acknowledged fully and not minimized by Traveller advocates. There are some ex-advocates for the Travellers whom Village magazine might do well to seek out for an interview, although, of course, it would have to be anonymous.

periodictable

Fair point made, but this bit ""the violence among Travellers is often an expression of frustration that results from the powerlessness of their position, and the erasing of their identify by both assimilation and dispersal policies.

“It feeds into the issue of horizontal violence between people of that minority group because they cannot find avenues to address the wrongs done to them by people in authority”. is a psychobabble nonsense favoured by so called social "scientists".
Occasionally I feel powerless about the behaviour of senior civil servants and politicians, and I would like to shoot them, but because I live in a society with its rules and expectations, I don't act upon these instincts. To do so would be to liveby the law of the jungle, and then what's the point of society?