Who do you consider to be Irish ?

Ziphius

IrishAm wrote: »

Give me your email address or just create a new one and I shall forward you on the study I was alluring to. I have it saved to PDF on my PC.

Why not just provide the authors names, year of publication, article title, and journal title. Then we can all read it.

mathepac

IrishAm wrote: »

... I have American citizenship ...

I managed to work that out for myself.

IrishAm wrote: »

... Does that make me indigenous to America? ...

So not indigenous Irish and not indigenous American, Italian maybe? French from Canadia?

kupus

mathepac wrote: »

I managed to work that out for myself.
So not indigenous Irish and not indigenous American, Italian maybe? French from Canadia?

Maybe Puerto Rican.... he argues like one anyway.....

Hey OP you're as Irish as bacon and cabbage, just cos you're a bit more tanned than the rest of us, dont be rubbing it in:pac:

Azhrei

If you were born in Ireland, you're Irish. If you've lived here since you were a child, then you're half Irish, and half wherever you came from. If you have parents or grandparents and so on who were Irish, you are of Irish descent.

Galwayguy35

Azhrei wrote: »

If you've lived here since you were a child, then you're half Irish

Nope, your not actually.

Sound of Silence

If someone is born on this Island and feel connected to it in some degree, then they can certainly describe themselves as Irish. This is despite perhaps having any sort of Irish heritage, as in the case of the OP.

Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw, and James Joyce could not be identified as ethnically Irish, having been descended from landed families. They perhaps would have described their Irishness as being a particular type of Irishness, both similar and distant from what could be termed as the Indigenous Irish.

North of the Border is perhaps the best example of the dissonance which exists in the Irish identity. The Orangeman, whilst he may vehemently deny it, is a particular type of Irishman; ethnically and culturally dissimilar from us, but ultimately a man of this Island. LordSutch, as he pointed out earlier, chooses to identify himself with what he assumes is his British heritage. Whilst he certainly would not deny that he is Irish by consequence of birth, one would assume that he identifies more with what could be described as the "New Irish" than anything else.

The question of identity is incredibly convoluted, and no more so in Ireland. So, to avoid the inevitable pitfalls of diving into questions of heritage and genealogy, I would advise the OP to simply consider himself Irish if he does in fact happen to feel Irish.

InTheTrees

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw, and James Joyce could not be identified as ethnically Irish, having been descended from landed families.

Why? Are you suggesting any family that managed to hang on to its property somehow stopped being "ethnically" irish? What if the "landed family" was in a direct line from the old irish kings? What if they caved under the new english rulers and converted?

Sound of Silence

InTheTrees wrote: »

Why? Are you suggesting any family that managed to hang on to its property somehow stopped being "ethnically" irish? What if the "landed family" was in a direct line from the old irish kings? What if they caved under the new english rulers and converted?

None of the people I mentioned could be referred to as ethnically Irish (With the exception of Joyce); in the sense that they're not descended from the Indigenous Irish stock and usually wouldn't subscribe to Irish Culture or Traditions. Typically they would be described as being members of the Protestant Ascendancy or the Anglo-Irish contingent; and in some cases as the "New Irish".

I'm sure that this label has lost most of it's meaning in recent years, and most of the Anglo-Irish contingent would now consider themselves to be wholly Irish, but this was not always the case. They were a living example of how vast the spectrum of Irishness is, and still remains.

As I mentioned before, there is nothing limiting the OP from describing himself as Irish.

LordSutch

Good posts, you seem to have a good grasp of the nuances of 'Irishness' /Anglo-Irishness old bean.

Sound of Silence

LordSutch wrote: »

Good posts, you seem to have a good grasp of the nuances of 'Irishness' /Anglo-Irishness old bean.

That's what living in Northern Ireland will do to you

IrishAm

mathepac wrote: »

I managed to work that out for myself.

I was born in Dublin. As were my people as far back as I can go.

The anti treatyites destroyed me doing our family tree. They destroyed the Custom House.

mathepac wrote: »

So not indigenous Irish and not indigenous American, Italian maybe? French from Canadia?

My father was born in Dublin. He obtained a yank passport. So when I was born, I got one.

You are welcome to it.

It means nothing to me. I am a Dub.

Its yours,if you want it.

Esel

IrishAm wrote: »

We have been here longer than the red lads have been native to America.

That is the second time in this thread that you have use a racist epithet. Are you just doing that for the fun of it, or are you a racist?

IrishAm wrote: »

I was born in Dublin. As were my people as far back as I can go.

The anti treatyites destroyed me doing our family tree. They destroyed the Custom House.

While the burning of the records in the Custom House is certainly very regrettable from a genealogy point of view, there are other records available.

robp

IrishAm wrote: »

We have been here longer than the red lads have been native to America. .

Europe has been inhabited for a very very long time but not Ireland. On the current evidence Ireland was first colonised in the Mesolithic. Ireland's oldest occupation remains Mount Sandal between 10 -9,000 before present. This makes Ireland's first people later than America's first people.

Fratton Fred

OP, what you are seeing I'm this thread is a demonstration of the belief still held ny a lot of people in this country that Irish = white AMD catholic.

You are an Irish Citizen and identify yourself as Irish. That makes you Irish in my book.

WildSaffron

I was born in Africa and have lived in Ireland for 18 years. I work hard at promoting tourism to Ireland. My little baby is 8 weeks old and my husband in born and bred in Ireland - but of viking extraction. This is a stupid debate - there is no such thing as a "true Celt" - Ireland is a special place because it was inhabited by waves of immigrants over the centuries. Greeks, Welsh, Scottish, Spanish, Egyptians etc. Possibly an odd Borg here and there.

robp

Ipso wrote: »

I'm not R1b: does that mean I'm not Irish? Any DNA study older than a couple years is worthless. What does the study you are referring to say about autosomal DNA?
There's nothing special about Irish people from a DNA point of view, we are very similar to British people.
Actually that graph goes against the notion or Irish people being unchanged in 10,000 years as R1b most likely arrived in the late Bronze Age.

Using words like special when talking DNA is false. However, in one sense DNA of every region in the world is special as its all unique. Never the less there is a structure in Europe's DNA reflecting generations of low mixing. There also lots of overlap but history can easily explain that. Genetists would argue that these differences are mostly superficial.

here is a PCA chart of differences from a recent study. Despite low average levels of genetic differentiation among Europeans it clearly shows DNA differences create a map mimicking many of Europe's borders.


From Nature.2008. Genes mirror geography within Europe

WildSaffron

Great map.

Interesting that locally we find DNA that is mostly Spanish - and places like Newgrange seem to have been built by the French.

dubhthach

WildSaffron wrote: »

Great map.

Interesting that locally we find DNA that is mostly Spanish - and places like Newgrange seem to have been built by the French.

We don't, the French are considerably closer to the Irish autosomal (Across the entire genome) then we are to the Spanish. Which given the geographical difference is understandable.

R1b is indeed common in Spain, however the varities of Y-Chromosome R1b (male lineage) found in Spain are from a Parallel branch to those found in Ireland. Eg. the Irish ones are not derived generally from what is seen in Spain. If anything most R1b lineages found in Ireland probably derive from the area that is now France.

WildSaffron

The oldest games - the Tailteann Games - were based on a Spanish Princess called Tailtiu.

It's where it is believed the ancient Greek Olympics originated - dated back to 1867 BC. The Greeks sailed up the Boyne River to attend the games.

It will be interesting to study the dynamics of "Irishness" in a few years - my baby is 8 weeks old - half black - half viking (possibly from Norway) - but in Ireland for about 800 years - and where I was born was influenced by the Egyptians.

Isn't Ireland an exciting country to be a part of, though?

dubhthach

In reality Tailtiu was probably a goddess who was secularized in the 8th/9th century AD "Book of Invasions" narrative.

WildSaffron

She was definately Spanish - may have been elevated to a goddess status.

It's interesting walking around the area where the Palace of Tailtiu stood - there is still a lot of undiscovered rock art there.

horsemaster

Any Irish who has taken curry has automatically become an Indian. Any Indian who has drunk Guinness is an Irish. This are no two ways about it. Be happy for who you are and love others from whatever background they come from. Anything else is relative.

Ipso

WildSaffron wrote: »

I was born in Africa and have lived in Ireland for 18 years. I work hard at promoting tourism to Ireland. My little baby is 8 weeks old and my husband in born and bred in Ireland - but of viking extraction. This is a stupid debate - there is no such thing as a "true Celt" - Ireland is a special place because it was inhabited by waves of immigrants over the centuries. Greeks, Welsh, Scottish, Spanish, Egyptians etc. Possibly an odd Borg here and there.

How do Greeks, Spanish and Egyptians fit into things?

robp

WildSaffron wrote: »

I was born in Africa and have lived in Ireland for 18 years. I work hard at promoting tourism to Ireland. My little baby is 8 weeks old and my husband in born and bred in Ireland - but of viking extraction. This is a stupid debate - there is no such thing as a "true Celt" - Ireland is a special place because it was inhabited by waves of immigrants over the centuries. Greeks, Welsh, Scottish, Spanish, Egyptians etc. Possibly an odd Borg here and there.

Ideas and fashions have always spread across borders but people moving to Ireland is largely a modern thing. The one exception would be Norman and British plantations. Aside from the occasional migrant from Spain or France that is all. Personally I would even say very few Irish are descended from Vikings. Ireland is more unusual for insularity than the opposite.

LordSutch

I'd say most of "the 1st wave" of people who arrived on this island 9.000 years ago came from/via Britain, which I guess was used as a stopping point before the travellers (origin Iberia)? upped sticks and sailed across the Irish sea to become the very 1st inhabitants of Ireland.

Interesting to note that Britain as an island has been inhabited by humans much much longer than Ireland.

WildSaffron

Ipso wrote: »

How do Greeks, Spanish and Egyptians fit into things?

The Irish were notorius for raiding Britain.

That is how St. Patrick came to Ireland - he was kidnapped by Niall of the Nine Hostages.

Just one example.

The name of Scotland is derived from an Egyptian princess (buried in Kerry) - who came to Ireland via Spain - and whose descendants moved to Scotland - "the Land of Scota".

Ipso

WildSaffron wrote: »

The Irish were notorius for raiding Britain.

That is how St. Patrick came to Ireland - he was kidnapped by Niall of the Nine Hostages.

Just one example.

The name of Scotland is derived from an Egyptian princess (buried in Kerry) - who came to Ireland via Spain - and whose descendants moved to Scotland - "the Land of Scota".

I'd be skeptical about the Niall/Patrick link. Most likely an attempt to link two important people.
As for Scota it's most likely a combination of Romans projecting their origin stories and Ireland trying to link itself to classical stories.

WildSaffron

Ipso wrote: »

I'd be skeptical about the Niall/Patrick link. Most likely an attempt to link two important people.
As for Scota it's most likely a combination of Romans projecting their origin stories and Ireland trying to link itself to classical stories.

Interesting points. However - an examination of the Annals of the Four Masters shows the Irish defending their own history.

There is corruption and legend involved - but the British did really try to make the Irish look like they just came out of the trees.

The Irish - or people that lived in Ireland - built structures 2,000 years before the Pyramids.

WildSaffron

Another point - the Irish are good at making apologies for being Irish - gosh - I wish I were Irish - I am in heart!!! Why not celebrate it - and teach our kids to as well?

Ipso

WildSaffron wrote: »

Another point - the Irish are good at making apologies for being Irish - gosh - I wish I were Irish - I am in heart!!! Why not celebrate it - and teach our kids to as well?

Definitely, but we need to distinguish between history and mythology/pseudo history.
Both are rich and should be celebrated in their own right. There's enough outside distortions without adding to it ourselves.

WildSaffron

Ipso wrote: »

Definitely, but we need to distinguish between history and mythology/pseudo history.
Both are rich and should be celebrated in their own right. There's enough outside distortions without adding to it ourselves.

I agree.

Where I am coming from is that Ireland is full of stories - and that is what people abroad love. We should celebrate it all.

Sound of Silence

Fratton Fred wrote: »

OP, what you are seeing I'm this thread is a demonstration of the belief still held ny a lot of people in this country that Irish = white AMD catholic.

You are an Irish Citizen and identify yourself as Irish. That makes you Irish in my book.

It would be incredibly short sighted to assume that this dissonance was ever promoted solely by "White Catholics". You must understand that on this Island there is a population, both North and South of the border, whose Irish identity necessitates partition. And if not partition, then Union with Great Britain in whole.

You have to ask yourself whether these people simply occupy a different strata of the Irish Identity, or whether their apparent "Irishness" is actually nothing but an ancillary aspect to of their wider British heritage. It's clear that LordSutch battles with his Irish identity in a similar manner, as he tries to reconcile his British heritage with what could be described as a consequential Irishness.

Figures like Johnathan Swift and George Bernard Shaw have also battled with their identities and allegiances; and in the case of Swift, he often made efforts to distance himself entirely from his Irish roots. I doubt that these inner conflicts that they endured had much to do with "White Catholic" rhetoric, rather they could be described as a symptom of a rapidly diversifying Island.

LordSutch wrote: »

I'd say most of "the 1st wave" of people who arrived on this island 9.000 years ago came from/via Britain, which I guess was used as a stopping point before the travellers (origin Iberia)? upped sticks and sailed across the Irish sea to become the very 1st inhabitants of Ireland.

Interesting to note that Britain as an island has been inhabited by humans much much longer than Ireland.

It's an interesting point that I'm sure many people are aware of.

It's often used, however, to preface an argument for British control over this Island as being Natural and right.

LordSutch

Sound of Silence wrote: »

It's an interesting point that I'm sure many people are aware of.

It's often used, however, to preface an argument for British control over this Island as being Natural and right.

The way I see it is that Ireland was covered by ice for longer than Britain? plus the fact that Britain had been connected to mainland Europe, hence the first settlers arriving into Britain just walked across the land bridge! Ireland was not connected so it had to be reached by sea much much later.

barfizz

anishboi wrote: »

I am just posting this with the sole purpose of creating a debate.

I want to know who you guys consider to be Irish.

Many people I know accept people who aren't of Irish ancestry, but are born and raised in Ireland, as Irish. Others choose not to.

I am an Irish person of Indian ancestry; as in both my parents are Indian immigrants, so I don't have any proper Irish blood heritage.

But I was born in this country, lived here all of my life, I feel Irish, apparently speak with a strong Sligo accent (according to many people who I speak to) and I got an A2 in Irish in the Leaving Cert.

Therefore I self-identify as Irish and, to be honest, I have never really called myself Indian.

What are your thoughts ? On what grounds do you classify an Irish person ?

Cheers

If you look suspiciously at someone, and think that they are not from around here, consider yourself Irish.

barfizz

IrishAm wrote: »

Irish peeps are people whom have at least grandparent around at the foundation of our state. Also, according to a study conducted in 2001, 90 per cent of Irish people had direct ancestry to the original inhabitants of these islands.

Anybody with a trace of Irish blood can claim they have direct ancestry to the original inhabitants , whoever they are.
e.g. out of my over 200+ great - great - great - great - etc grand parents (in the last 1000 years) if only one of them is "original Irish" I qualify , Your argument is silly.
There is a very simple arrhythmical calculation that shows that by going back about 4000 years in anyone's heritage we can all find a link to a common ancestor so that includes me being related to Brian Boru, Winston Churchill, Genghis khan, etc.
I' sorry to burst your bubble but we are all a lot more closely related than you think.
And just before your claim I'm a "blow in" my ancestors have been on this Island for centuries.
I'm Irish and proud, but I'm not scared of difference.

barfizz

IrishAm wrote: »

I can debate this with you. 90 per cent of Irish peeps are indigenous to this great nation.

Ireland for the Irish

You can debate,
Define indigenous, to me it is "Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment."
Looks to me as anyone who was born here

Nitochris

Ipso wrote: »

I'd be skeptical about the Niall/Patrick link. Most likely an attempt to link two important people.
As for Scota it's most likely a combination of Romans projecting their origin stories and Ireland trying to link itself to classical stories.

On the Egyptian one the more obvious meaning to it is an attempt to link the Irish to the bible (Scota being the daughter of the Pharoah who appears in Exodus, I believe McCone has written on this somewhere).

Ipso

Nitochris wrote: »

On the Egyptian one the more obvious meaning to it is an attempt to link the Irish to the bible (Scota being the daughter of the Pharoah who appears in Exodus, I believe McCone has written on this somewhere).

Other attempts to link Ireland to the bible include The Pantheon (i think), Cesar and The Milesians from The Book of Invasions.
The Scythians were also a popular lot to tru to link to for some reason.

Bungarra

Op considers himself Irish, therefore OP is Irish... Can't see where the confusion is!

Azhrei

WildSaffron wrote: »

The Irish were notorius for raiding Britain.

That is how St. Patrick came to Ireland - he was kidnapped by Niall of the Nine Hostages.

Just one example.

The name of Scotland is derived from an Egyptian princess (buried in Kerry) - who came to Ireland via Spain - and whose descendants moved to Scotland - "the Land of Scota".

I don't recall ever hearing anything about that - as far as I have been told, an Irish tribe called the Scoti moved over to Scotland, civilised the Picts, and Scotland got it's name.

Sound of Silence

Azhrei wrote: »

I don't recall ever hearing anything about that - as far as I have been told, an Irish tribe called the Scoti moved over to Scotland, civilised the Picts, and Scotland got it's name.

As I recall, the term "Scoti" was simply used as a diminutive term by Roman Forces to identify Irish raiders. It's unlikely that the tribes actually called themselves "Scoti".

As the territory of the raiders expanded, so too did their area of Gaelic influence. Eventually the area became synonymous with "Scoti", and was effectively named as such.

Azhrei

That makes sense

Precious flower

I was born in London to Irish parents and moved here when I was five. I never considered myself English but always Irish. I've no reason to identify myself as English I don't even remember growing up there! I didn't know at the time but when I was getting my Irish passport I could have put down English as my nationally. Even if I had known I would have put down Irish.
I have relatives in England who consider themselves Irish because their parents are Irish. If you live here and consider yourself Irish that's great! I think it's brilliant that different nationalities call Ireland home.

I for one think it's lovely that they feel they are Irish. If your parents are Irish but live abroad I feel you should be able to call yourself Irish if you wish. It's nice to know that people with Irish parents living abroad still feel proud in saying they're Irish. The comedian Conan O'Brien considers himself Irish even though his family have been in America for generations. I think that's lovely. It's up to the individual what they decide and it's nice that OP feels proud to call himself Irish!

gobnaitolunacy

Precious flower wrote: »

The comedian Conan O'Brien considers himself Irish even though his family have been in America for generations. I think that's lovely.

I think it's cloying, more so if they're out of touch with present day Ireland and imagining its still shamrocks and shillelaghs.... drinking green beer on St Patty's (sic.) Day, etc.

intellectual dosser

When I read the title thread I thought of the Nuremburg Laws? I feel a little guilty but in my defense I watched Conspiracy only last weekend.

kupus

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I think it's cloying, more so if they're out of touch with present day Ireland and imagining its still shamrocks and shillelaghs.... drinking green beer on St Patty's (sic.) Day, etc.

taken from the big man .....

tonycascarino wrote: »

If an American or whatever nationality has Irish descent & wants to call themselves Irish that's fine by me. Why would any Irish person get insecure about this? I take it as a compliment.

LordSutch

Shane McGowan Irish, or is he?

Ipso

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I think it's cloying, more so if they're out of touch with present day Ireland and imagining its still shamrocks and shillelaghs.... drinking green beer on St Patty's (sic.) Day, etc.

Don't forget the readon may Americans do the whole Irish thing is because of how their Irish ancestors raised them. Irish people have no problem buying into other peoples idea of them, look at the ridiculousleprechaun hats that are always on sale.
Then there's the whole let's have a festival because a drink company tells us.

Seanchai

Anybody who defends the right of Ireland and the Irish people to live free from foreign occupation, and to enjoy an indigenous culture rather than be forced to accept the culture which is imposed by aforesaid foreign force, has a right to be Irish in my view.

Without such a sovereign right being defended Irishness would be as meaningless as Kentishness, mere parochialism in the English cultural nation as it extends to Ireland. They can have such an Ireland.

Irish Ireland is the only Ireland worth defending. It is the cultural basis of a separate Irish nation. The rest - rugby, soccer, etc - is mere Englishness with an Oirish veneer. It is not, and never has been, worthy of having a separate sovereign state.

Sound of Silence

LordSutch wrote: »

Shane McGowan Irish, or is he?

With a smile like that, how could he not be Irish!