The most important thing a woman will do?

SarahBeep!

So here I am sitting on the couch and I hear an ad come on for TV3's midweek.
I tune in half way through and then forget about it.

Then, during the xtra factors next ad break the ad is on again.

The programme is about whether women are leaving it too late to have children but that's not my issue with the voice over for this ad.

It states 'Having a child is the most important thing that a lot of women will do, so why are they leaving it so late?'

What. The. Hell.

Is that all we're here for, procreation??
What if I don't see it as the most important thing I will ever do?

I'm only 20 but I would like to eventually have children but I resent this portrayal of parenthood.

What do you think, ladies?

loveisdivine

Society as a whole still see child free women as incomplete. Like we can't have a satisfying and fulfilling existence unless we have children.

Stheno

I wonder at the media focus on this recently to be honest, it's not something I'd ever considered before, but isn't it the right of women to choose to have children and not something incumbent upon them?

That sort of advertising reeks of deValera and dancing at the crossroads.

Gumbi

It seems phrased politically incorrectly, though I really don't see mic of an issue. It seems to me that they are trying say what a momentous (potentially the most momentous) occasion this can be in a woman's life - of course, the very same can apply to men, too.

ViveLaVie

I would interpret it differently. It is clearly aimed at women who want to have kids but are delaying getting pregnant. I believe it is saying that for women who want to and go on to become mothers that it is their most important job. I would agree that being responsible for giving the gift of life and raising a person to reach their full potential would be the priority for a mother. I don't think it's commenting on those who don't want or have children.

Gongoozler

Just the other day I was talking to someone at work, she's pregnant and already has a year old girl, and I was asking about the labour, was it really painful etc. I ended up saying ah it doesn't matter, i'm not having children anyway. She looked at me with much shock. She didn't know what to say. She said You sound very certain. I said I am. She commented on how young I am. (I'm 28) I just said yeah but I'm sure. The conversation continued on a little and then ended. I think it was the first time I said it to someone (besides friends) and I was amused by her reaction.

Stheno

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I would interpret it differently. It is clearly aimed at women who want to have kids but are delaying getting pregnant. I believe it is saying that for women who want to and go on to become mothers that it is their most important job. I would agree that being responsible for giving the gift of life and raising a person to reach their full potential would be the priority for a mother. I don't think it's commenting on those who don't want or have children.

I'd change job there to priority?

And I do think it's commenting on women who don't want to or indeed can't have children, it's implying that having children is the most important role a woman can play in life.

loveisdivine

I hate the way you get questioned when you say you don't want children. Even if you're in your 30's people still question you like you don't know your own mind.

Yet when someone says they want children, or that they are planning to have one, nobody questions them on whether its really a good idea?

Gumbi

loveisdivine wrote: »

I hate the way you get questioned when you say you don't want children. Even if you're in your 30's people still question you like you don't know your own mind.

Yet when someone says they want children, or that they are planning to have one, nobody questions them on whether its really a good idea?

Well, would that not be because procreation is, typically speaking, a natural human inclination???

Stheno

Gumbi wrote: »

Well, would that not be because procreation is, typically speaking, a natural human inclination???

Not for everyone, and the recent media focus on women and procreation seems to be rather extreme.

As a women in my late thirties, the amount of people who assume I have children is shocking.

ViveLaVie

Stheno wrote: »

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I would interpret it differently. It is clearly aimed at women who want to have kids but are delaying getting pregnant. I believe it is saying that for women who want to and go on to become mothers that it is their most important job. I would agree that being responsible for giving the gift of life and raising a person to reach their full potential would be the priority for a mother. I don't think it's commenting on those who don't want or have children.

I'd change job there to priority?

And I do think it's commenting on women who don't want to or indeed can't have children, it's implying that having children is the most important role a woman can play in life.

Well I think it's commenting that it is a priority for women who choose to have children. Being a mother is the most important role a mother can play in life. It's not for a non-mother. The advert specifically says it is the most important job for 'a lot of women'. Not all.

What is wrong with my word choice?

Gumbi

Stheno wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

Well, would that not be because procreation is, typically speaking, a natural human inclination???

Not for everyone, and the recent media focus on women and procreation seems to be rather extreme.

As a women in my late thirties, the amount of people who assume I have children is shocking.

Typically speaking would be the keywords there.

ViveLaVie

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Being a mother is the most important role a mother can play in life.

I'm not a mother, but I can't imagine all mothers would be happy with that attitude either

I thought it would be interesting as a program to see if women do wait longer, like the thread we have here, but all this dressing up with "it's the most important thing in the world ever" was a bit unnecessary

eviltwin

Its badly worded but I get the gist of what they are trying to say. Like it or not being a parent involves work, its not for the lazy put it like that While its not essential to be "young" it does help and that's before you get to all the potential age related health issues.

What annoys me is that the implication is that women are choosing to delay motherhood out of a degree of selfishness. Surely it should be seen as a good thing that women are waiting until they are in committed relationships and have a bit of maturity and stability behind them?

Stheno

eviltwin wrote: »

Its badly worded but I get the gist of what they are trying to say. Like it or not being a parent involves work, its not for the lazy put it like that While its not essential to be "young" it does help and that's before you get to all the potential age related health issues.

What annoys me is that the implication is that women are choosing to delay motherhood out of a degree of selfishness. Surely it should be seen as a good thing that women are waiting until they are in committed relationships and have a bit of maturity and stability behind them?

Look and in response to previous posts, I understand that the majority of women want to have children however there is a minority who don't and adverts such as these sting.

I agree with you 100% on the selfishness, far better to have a woman happy to have children and committed and able to support them than otherwise.

That said, in my social circle, which is very small, one of the women I most admire had two children unexpectedly at a young age, and has devoted her live to bringing them up

I could never do what she did

daenerysstormborn3

A conversation about life and what people do with their lives as regards relationships more than likely involves the word "step". You know, "it's the next step". You're only dating someone and it's the next "step" to get engaged, you're only engaged to someone and it's the next "step" to get married, you're only married and it's the next "step" to have kids, and no personal choice does not come into it, you must abide by these steps. Or at least that's what most people would have you believe.

It'd be so boring if everyone was the same, life is not boring so thankfully, that must mean that everyone is not the same

ViveLaVie

bluewolf wrote: »

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Being a mother is the most important role a mother can play in life.

I'm not a mother, but I can't imagine all mothers would be happy with that attitude either

I thought it would be interesting as a program to see if women do wait longer, like the thread we have here, but all this dressing up with "it's the most important thing in the world ever" was a bit unnecessary

I'm sorry if it offends you but that is my opinion and the opinion of an awful lot of people (hence why the view is so widespread). I have heard a lot of mothers say, after they had kids, that they found it difficult to imagine their lives before they gave birth - thinking of their previous life experience as a bit abstract - and that their kids became the most important thing to them. Most parents love their kids unconditionally and with a depth that is almost shocking (would gladly die for them). It makes sense to consider giving life (the most precious gift) and raising someone to be a fully realised person in their own right as an incredibly important and difficult job and a priority. Parents who prematurely lose children often never get over it because the loss is so profound.

Obviously some people will disagree and I am not saying that a woman who chooses not to or cannot procreate is lesser in any way. They may have different priorities. I believe the advert is speaking only in terms of those who want to or already have kids. For the majority (though not all) of happy parents their children are the most important aspect of life.

I didn't say it wasn't important or that I was offended
I'm just saying I'm not sure that every single mother out there would want to be defined as "mother" most importantly, but then I also said I'm not a mother so I don't know.
I see you've already changed your mind from "every parent" to "every happy parent", so I suspect you agree

eviltwin

bluewolf wrote: »

I didn't say it wasn't important or that I was offended
I'm just saying I'm not sure that every single mother out there would want to be defined as "mother" most importantly, but then I also said I'm not a mother so I don't know.
I see you've already changed your mind from "every parent" to "every happy parent", so I suspect you agree

Saying its the most important role you will ever have doesn't mean it has to define you.

I'm a mum but its only one of the hats I wear. However I don't think anything else I do is as important. You don't have to look far to see the effects of bad parenting, its a ripple effect, it has a huge impact on society. For me and for my husband, our kids will always come first before everything else, its no contest really. And I think most parents including dads feel the same way.

ViveLaVie

bluewolf wrote: »

I didn't say it wasn't important or that I was offended
I'm just saying I'm not sure that every single mother out there would want to be defined as "mother" most importantly, but then I also said I'm not a mother so I don't know.
I see you've already changed your mind from "every parent" to "every happy parent", so I suspect you agree

I must have misinterpreted your comment. Apologies.

Well I say 'happy parent' because the advert is obviously targeting those who want to engage with that life and also because it is all too obvious that some parents neglect, abuse and degrade their children. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, these people do not see the job of being a parent as important. However I strongly believe that any parent who is happy to be a parent and loves their kids would see their responsibility to them as the most important responsibility they have.

I don't have kids so that is not the most important job for me.

meeeeh

Do people want to be insulted by every stupid add they see these days? I don't give a damn if somebody wants, doesn't want, can or can't have children. But if you have one, there is very little else that will impact your life as much as a child. It will impact your professional life, your finances, free time and so on. So not to treat a decision to have or not to have children as the biggest decision in your life is stupid. And for some people this is also emotionally the decision which will impact their life, their relationships etc the most.

I'm not being sentimental here but it's not exactly like getting a puppy for Christmas and sending him back 14 days later because he pees on the carpet. And I don't find my life before child meaningless, it was probably more fun. As I can't say that any part of my life was more or less happy. For me having a child meant some natural progression, as was having proper grown up relationship for example or starting working, but none of the others impacted my life so much in every way. So yea, having children is the most important thing that happened to me.

Malari

I don't think the wording of the ad is particularly offensive. For a lot of women it will be the most important thing they do. I suppose it depends how you define "important" as well. There will be lots of important things in most womens' lives but having a child is the longest-lasting so I guess continues to be the most important as you go through life.

Ickle Magoo

IF the voice over had said it was "the most important thing a woman will do" then I think complaints would have been justified as it infers it's up there as the pinnacle of endeavours but they have added the caveat "that a lot of women will do"...so I find the title thread a tad misleading.

That said, there are lots of less ambiguous/potentially inflammatory ways of saying lots of women find motherhood important.

The Cool

Firstly, I should say I'm not a mum, or even thinking about being one yet (I'm 23).
However I don't think this was such a ridiculous statement. I don't think they're saying that that is all we are good for, or undermining our careers, relationships or any other great achievements that we have in our lives. But seriously, as a parent you are responsible for a person in a way you have never been for anything before. You are responsible for making sure a human being is formed properly, by looking after yourself while pregnant; then, making sure they develop properly, both physically and mentally, in terms of health, social skills, etc, as a child; you teach them morals and values so that they function well as a member of society; them watching you, affects their role in relationships with other people long after they have flown the nest, with their eventual spouses and how they parent their own children.
I think that people nowadays fulfill their lives in many ways other than just being a parent. We have such great opportunities to push ourselves and achieve great things in our careers and whatever else. However, I think the effect you have on this person that you create out of your own body is the most important thing you do.
In terms of the wording of the piece, I would actually argue with them having just used "woman" - I think all of the above applies to men/fathers just as much.

Ellsbells

meeeeh wrote: »

Do people want to be insulted by every stupid add they see these days?

Oh exactly.... There is a drama on here every week about women who have chosen to have kids versus those who dont want to. Each to their own....

Morag

The most important thing a woman will do?
Develop her own potential.


Sometimes that can go hand and have with having kids and growing with them
but to assume that we have to do this automatically is all kinds of wrong.
The same is rarely assumed of men.

Lyaiera

What do you expect from TV3? I don't like the idea that someone's life's merits have to be ranked and analysed so the very most important event can have a crappy gala and win an award, or in this case so they can be told they're failing at their life's most important event.

Da Shins Kelly

I pretty much agree with eviltwin. If you are a mother, it doesn't have to be all that you are. However, if you choose to bring children into the world they should 100% be the priority, in my opinion. And that goes for men and women. Having children is a huge responsibility, and if I ever chose to have them it probably would be the most important thing in my life, but not the only thing.

Nymeria

Ellsbells wrote: »

Oh exactly.... There is a drama on here every week about women who have chosen to have kids versus those who dont want to. Each to their own....

I wouldn't say that its drama...its discussion. This is a discussion board, and TLL is for women of all types, parents and non-parents. I don't see the problem with debating the issue, or at least bringing it up as a valid issue.

I also tend to roll my eyes at these types of lazy generalisations when they refer to all women, and like another poster pointed out, it rarely gets aimed at men. I'm sure for many women it is the most important thing in their life, however I also believe there are women out there who are mothers who maybe don't want to be categorised in such a limited way.

Obviously it is 'just' an ad, but underneath it seems to be this assumption about women that comes up time and time again, its frustrating to say the least.

But I do get irritated by this 'well if you want to get offended by everything :rolleyes:' attitude, which seems to smack of put up and shut up. Just because it doesn't offend you personally, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a discussion. This is the Ladies Lounge, and this is an issue that affects ladies. The OP should be allowed to post something if she feels that it is worth her while, just as other people should be allowed to agree or disagree.

I have read several times(not from this site) in the comments section of childfree articles/ the debate to have children etc. from parents basically saying 'we don't care if you don't have children, just don't go on about it' or something similar. Why shouldn't we be allowed to talk about it?

To be fair, there is a parenting forum on this site, many news or lifestyle websites have special parenting sections, there is plenty of internet space allocated to discuss every acpect of parenting (which is as it should be, im sure there is lots to discuss:D). And of course there are childfree websites specifically for people like me. But in a general female oriented forum like the ladies lounge, us don't-wanna-be-parents should be able to discuss our issues too, and not be told we are over reacting.

Nymeria

pixiebean22 wrote: »

A conversation about life and what people do with their lives as regards relationships more than likely involves the word "step". You know, "it's the next step". You're only dating someone and it's the next "step" to get engaged, you're only engaged to someone and it's the next "step" to get married, you're only married and it's the next "step" to have kids, and no personal choice does not come into it, you must abide by these steps. Or at least that's what most people would have you believe.

It'd be so boring if everyone was the same, life is not boring so thankfully, that must mean that everyone is not the same

Yes, this is also pretty irritating, the assumption that if you are in a relationship for more than a few months that you must of course be planning a wedding. Or even that every woman wants to get married.

Madam_X

SarahBeep! wrote: »

It states 'Having a child is the most important thing that a lot of women will do, so why are they leaving it so late?'

What. The. Hell.

Is that all we're here for, procreation??

But that's not what it's implying at all...

Ellsbells

Nymeria wrote: »

. This is a discussion board, and TLL is for women of all types, parents and non-parents. I don't see the problem with debating the issue, or at least bringing it up as a valid issue.

.

Well I was effectively told, by certain posters who dont have kids, to P off to parenting when I asked how the ladies of TLL (who had kids) had changed since having their kids!! So if its ok to talk about women who dont have kids, why isnt it ok for women who have kids to discuss it here? It has to work both ways - we can either talk about all womens issues or not? Are women who have kids to be segregated from TLL????

Madam_X

If there was a discussion on life as a childfree woman (which mothers can still relate to seeing as they were once child-free) this seems like its natural home; where else would suit? Whereas a discussion for mothers only does exclude a large chunk of participants/readers here which would not be the case in the Parenting forum.

meeeeh

Nymeria wrote: »

I wouldn't say that its drama...its discussion. This is a discussion board, and TLL is for women of all types, parents and non-parents. I don't see the problem with debating the issue, or at least bringing it up as a valid issue.

I also tend to roll my eyes at these types of lazy generalisations when they refer to all women, and like another poster pointed out, it rarely gets aimed at men. I'm sure for many women it is the most important thing in their life, however I also believe there are women out there who are mothers who maybe don't want to be categorised in such a limited way.

There is already Ann Romney thread. I'm actually insulted by what you are implying here. Do you think that realizing that having a child is the most important thing in my life regarding lifestyle changes this brings, is me wanting to be categorized in a limited way? I still categorize myself as a woman first, I still have interest that don't include children and I don't go all weak in the knees whenever I see drooling baby. And it would not be the end of my life if I couldn't have children. However this has nothing to do with the fact that I can't go to a hairdresser without organizing someone to mind a child or can't book a weekend break for two on Thursday and leave on Friday. Once you decide to take care of a helpless human being (and I would include in that decisions that some have to make if their partner or parent etc. becomes incapable of taking care of them selves) it hugely impacts your life.

I'm not saying that you can't have a career or discover a cure for cancer but your primary duty is to those who depend on you. So it is not about how you want to be defined but about where your primary duty lies. At least in the societies where nuclear family is hugely prevailing family.

eviltwin

Madam_X wrote: »

If there was a discussion on life as a childfree woman (which mothers can still relate to seeing as they were once child-free) this seems like its natural home; where else would suit? Whereas a discussion for mothers only does exclude a large chunk of participants/readers here which would not be the case in the Parenting forum.

Parenting is more about practical stuff though, its not really the forum for women to talk about their attitudes to motherhood or how they feel about the way society portrays it.

I think there has been a lot of anti-motherhood comments in here of late, I don't know what's driving it. Many of the posts have been started by child free posters so its not like the motherhood issue is being driven by the parents here.

meeeeh

Madam_X wrote: »

If there was a discussion on life as a childfree woman (which mothers can still relate to seeing as they were once child-free) this seems like its natural home; where else would suit? Whereas a discussion for mothers only does exclude a large chunk of participants/readers here which would not be the case in the Parenting forum.

So the thread on experiences of colposcopy should be moved to some medical forum, because most of us never had it?

Ickle Magoo

Folks, what should or shouldn't be good to go as a discussion topic in this forum isn't really appropriate/on-topic for this particular thread.

At long last we have a feedback thread up and running - any concerns should/can be raised there.

Cheers.

Madam_X

Fair enough. I'm not a fan of the anti parent/child stuff either.

jasonb

This is TV3 for god's sake, that's probably one of their least 'sensationalist' voice-overs. They're tabloid television, I wouldn't expect anything less from them...

J.

Nymeria

meeeeh wrote: »

There is already Ann Romney thread. I'm actually insulted by what you are implying here.

Actually, I was picking up on what some other posters have said, namely;

'Being a mother is the most important role a mother can play in life.', or ' For a lot of women it will be the most important thing they do.' etc.

And I stand by what I said, I never meant to insult anybody. I do think there are many women out there who are mothers, but who also want to hold onto the person they are independent of their partner/ children. However, in advertising especially, it seems that 'mum' is the descriptive used most often....'sponsor of mums', 'mums go to Iceland' and they are categorised as mums and not much else. This also happens in real life, how often have you heard someone identify themselves as 'Katie's mum' or 'Tommy's mum', people even put it as their username sometimes. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but I do think that for some women, they don't want to just be seen as so-and-so's mum.

It's interesting that you mentioned the Ann Romney thread, because I agreed with the OP there aswell, however very quickly that thread got shot down for the OP being over sensitive.

I for one don't feel that highlighting issues like this should be seen as an attack on parenting. Nor am I saying that issues on parenting should be left out of the ladies lounge.

Why does it have to come down to parent vs. non-parent?

Ellsbells, you are right, you should not have been told to 'take it to parenting', firstly, it is a moderators job to decide where threads go, and secondly if a thread doesn't apply, then people don't have to read it/ answer it.
However, equally I think that those of us who dont have/ want children should be able to discuss it here, and any issues that come with that without it being taken as an attack on parents or that we are evil child hating monsters.

Nymeria

eviltwin wrote: »

Parenting is more about practical stuff though, its not really the forum for women to talk about their attitudes to motherhood or how they feel about the way society portrays it.

I think there has been a lot of anti-motherhood comments in here of late, I don't know what's driving it. Many of the posts have been started by child free posters so its not like the motherhood issue is being driven by the parents here.

Where are the 'anti-motherhood' comments? Are people saying 'mothers are bad, children are horrible'? Or am I missing something?

People talking about their own personal reasons for not having/ wanting children is not an attack on your choice to parent, and I feel they are equally entitled to discuss their issues here.

Lucyfur

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Folks, what should or shouldn't be good to go as a discussion topic in this forum isn't really appropriate/on-topic for this particular thread.

At long last we have a feedback thread up and running - any concerns should/can be raised there.

Cheers.

A reminder. Please stay on topic

eviltwin

Nymeria wrote: »

Where are the 'anti-motherhood' comments? Are people saying 'mothers are bad, children are horrible'? Or am I missing something?

People talking about their own personal reasons for not having/ wanting children is not an attack on your choice to parent, and I feel they are equally entitled to discuss their issues here.

Its the tone I have taken from some of the threads. Some people are very defensive of their decision not to have children. Whatever a person decides to do is there business but defending your choices shouldn't mean taking a smug attitude that you are somehow better for it.

CathyMoran

For me it is the most rewarding thing that I have done, but I have always wanted to be a mother and went through a lot for it to happen. It is not the same for everyone.

Ellsbells

It's actually more insulting to women who have had kids late rather than women don't have kids. It's insinuating we are out drinking cocktails while our fertility dwindles and that we are doing this without a care in the world for the health of the baby.

meeeeh

As somebody said, it's TV3. It's also the statement everyone can understand in their own way (and we obviously did) and be insulted by it or agree with it. But TV3 seems to be an easy target for people to be outraged by their shows in the same way as people complain about stereotypes or generalisations in tabloids or soaps. They depend on advertising money, more you ignore those programes or magazines fewer of them will be maðe.

Edit: I just heard the add. The actual quote is: giving birth coud be the most important thing many women will do in their life... And then asking why are so many leaving it so late when it's riskier.

I don't know if that makes it less or more insulting but it is helpful if people quote accurately. It changes the tone of the add completely and I agree with Ellsbels if anybody should be insulted by it is those who have children later in life. The statement is a bit nonsensical and I still don't find it insulting but I'm even more at loss how somebody can understand it as an attack on childless people or as an suggestion that women are only ðefined by motherhood.

Ellsbells

The Ann Romney thread was started by an American man.

Lucyfur

I've been thinking about this for ages and trying to think of something wonderful I've done, outside motherhood, which really defines me...and to be honest, I'm struggling

For me, becoming a mum changed my life. And I'm not being dramatic when I say that. Everything I've done in life to date, has been to better the life I can give my son. I do my best to teach him the value of money and the importance of kindness. I encourage him to do well at school so he can go and be the best at whatever he wants to do.

So yeah, for me, the most important thing I've done has been becoming a mum. And not because I gave birth and procreated and it was wonderful and everyone should do it. But because it gave me the kick up the bum I needed to better myself, so that I could bring my son up in an environment where he sees that a bit of hard work and love (corny as it sounds) make our world go round.


Disclaimer;
I am by no means saying that motherhood defines women. Far, far from it;)

kylith

SarahBeep! wrote: »

Is that all we're here for, procreation??

Well, yes, as far as biology is concerned, yes. And that's all men are here for too. We're organic, self-replicating, machines; everything else is periphery.

Das Kitty

kylith wrote: »

Well, yes, as far as biology is concerned, yes. And that's all men are here for too. We're organic, self-replicating, machines; everything else is periphery.

Even that's periphery in the grand scheme of the universe.

IMO, nothing we do is really important. As humans we only matter to one another and ourselves. So my opinion of what the most important thing I can do as a woman, or just as a person, is to improve the lives of others and my own life in any small way I can.

Bringing a child into the world in and of itself isn't important. But in my case at least the extra love I have in my life, and my husband has in his now has improved our lives. (Before anyone starts, that's not to say that people without children are loveless, quite the contrary. The human capacity for love is boundless in my experience. Always room for a little bit more.)

It also improves our lives and his to bring him up. It feels like achievement and it makes us happier. But there are plenty of things that can give that sense of achivement and happiness to people. None is greater than the other, IMO. It's all how the individual perceives it.