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Phil Hogan and Parish Pump politics [MERGED WITH MOD WARNING]

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13

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    #62
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    touts wrote: »
    It's a fundamental part of our political system that the local TD lobbies on behalf of people. He/she lobbies to get them a medical card. He/she lobbies to get them planning permission. He/she lobbies to get their estate taken over by the council. He/she lobbies to get speed bumps installed. He/she lobbies to....... etc etc etc

    The locals did not want this family next door to them so Hogan lobbied for them. It is THEIR opinions and then the nature of the political system people should be directing their focus onto. If Hogan resigned the locals still would not want this family and the political system would still be based on electing the best pot hole fillers.

    But is it right that we have allowed central government to be like that.
    It's a very inefficient way to do it as very soon TD's are compromised by local concerns, instead of being free to govern the country as a whole.
    James O'Reilly's actions kinda underlining the point.
    The criteria didn't fit so he 'just widened the criteria' to look after his vote base, as another of his party said last night.
    It's a classic of sleeveenism. 'He widened the criteria'


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    #63
    touts
    Registered Users Posts: 6,449 ✭✭✭touts


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    But is it right that we have allowed central government to be like that.
    It's a very inefficient way to do it as very soon TD's are compromised by local concerns, instead of being free to govern the country as a whole.
    James O'Reilly's actions kinda underlining the point.
    The criteria didn't fit so he 'just widened the criteria' to look after his vote base, as another of his party said last night.
    It's a classic of sleeveenism. 'He widened the criteria'

    We elect the best pot-hole-fillers and coffin-chasers to be TDs but then that means the pool of people to pull from when it comes to appointing ministers to run the government is hopelessly shallow. When you think about it at the moment Luke Ming Flanagan and Mattie McGrath are eligible to be Irish government Ministers but Michael O'Leary and David McWilliams are not.


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    #64
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    I would not want a family living beside, or near, me that had an anti social track record. It is incidental that they are travellers IMO.


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    #65
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    I would not want a family living beside, or near, me that had an anti social track record. It is incidental that they are travellers IMO.

    Do they have an anti social track record?

    I have yet to see any evidence that says so...


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    #66
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    Cliste wrote: »
    Do they have an anti social track record?

    I have yet to see any evidence that says so...

    According to Hogan yesterday they do, was on the radio.


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    #67
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    That eijit will be hit by a slander case next.

    I definitely think it is poor form for Phil Hogan to feel that he has the power and right to decide who is and isn't anti-social.

    The local families have every right to not want anti-social people to move in next door. The local TD isn't the one who gets to make that decision though.


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    #68
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    He wrote a letter, he didn't decide anything. It's not his job to decide this, but he's free to represent people in his constituency.


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    #69
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    He wrote a letter, he didn't decide anything. It's not his job to decide this, but he's free to represent people in his constituency.

    All people, or just some people?
    Or are TD's only meant to represent those who vote for them?

    He wrote the letter, and he claimed to have sorted it out for the constituents. I would say he made a few decisions in that lot.
    The fact that he actually turned out as not having any influence on the decision is immaterial.


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    #70
    Technocentral
    Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    You are claiming that there is a likelihood that this family has intimidated others to ensure that there have been no complaints made against them. The reality is that there is no evidence to suggest that this family has been engaged in anti-social behaviour or criminal activity. Evidence does however illustrate that the family itself has been receiving harassing correspondence since attempting to move into the locality.

    I suggest you backup your thinly veiled assertion that this family has intimated others - if you cannot then you should drop the issue in my view.

    But the racist/prejudiced type doesn't need evidence, it would be like saying a black family 2 doors down were engaged in anti social behavior so all blacks are low lifes, unfortunately this country is full of such small minded people,


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    #71
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Cliste wrote: »
    he claimed to have sorted it out for the constituents. I would say he made a few decisions in that lot.

    Actually no he did not, he just stated that they would not be housed there. There's no indication as to who made the decision, where he got his information fro etc. It's a remarkably short note, a waste of an A4 page really.


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    #72
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    Cliste wrote: »
    All people, or just some people?
    Or are TD's only meant to represent those who vote for them?

    He wrote the letter, and he claimed to have sorted it out for the constituents. I would say he made a few decisions in that lot.
    The fact that he actually turned out as not having any influence on the decision is immaterial.

    If someone makes a case to him who lives outside of his constituency then I'm sure he can decide for himself whether he can help them or not.

    If you don't tell them, or make it widely known, then TD's don't know who does or doesn't vote for them.

    If it's a genuine case where the family has an anti social record then more power to his, or any other representatives, elbow.

    People make rods for their own backs by their actions, it'll come out in the wash whether it's the family or Hogan in this instance.

    If it's true they have an anti social record, I'm not here to vouch for anyone, then I don't see anything wrong with that Hogan done.


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    #73
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    I would not want a family living beside, or near, me that had an anti social track record. It is incidental that they are travellers IMO.

    There is no evidence that the family in question have a track record of anti-social behaviour or criminal activity. Phil Hogan's word is not exactly the most reliable in this case considering it is he who is in the centre of the ****storm.
    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    He wrote a letter, he didn't decide anything. It's not his job to decide this, but he's free to represent people in his constituency.

    You are correct in saying that he personally did not decide on the case - however he made representations to the County Manager, who ultimately makes the decision, and considering his ministerial position his letters would be highly influential.

    People keep harping on that it is the duty of a TD to make representations on behalf of their constituents, which is true. However it is not the duty of a TD to go out of their way to attempt to deny individuals access to housing - especially when the TD in question has responsibility for social housing. Not only is it morally wrong, but it is bordering on illegality also.


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    #74
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    There is no evidence that the family in question have a track record of anti-social behaviour or criminal activity. Phil Hogan's word is not exactly the most reliable in this case considering it is he who is in the centre of the ****storm.

    He has claimed they have, I'm not vouching for him or them, but as I said it'll come out in the wash who is or isn't being entirely truthful about that. The family are claiming they don't have an anti social record yet people seem to take their word :confused:
    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    You are correct in saying that he personally did not decide on the case - however he made representations to the County Manager, who ultimately makes the decision, and considering his ministerial position his letters would be highly influential.

    People keep harping on that it is the duty of a TD to make representations on behalf of their constituents, which is true. However it is not the duty of a TD to go out of their way to attempt to deny individuals access to housing - especially when the TD in question has responsibility for social housing.


    Highly influential to the point where his letter was ignored :D

    Personally, I value quality of life above a lot of other things. If I was in a situation where an anti social family was about to be plonked in beside me I would be delighted if any TD in my constituency represented my view that they shouldn't be.


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    #75
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    There is no evidence that the family in question have a track record of anti-social behaviour or criminal activity. Phil Hogan's word is not exactly the most reliable in this case considering it is he who is in the centre of the ****storm.



    You are correct in saying that he personally did not decide on the case - however he made representations to the County Manager, who ultimately makes the decision, and considering his ministerial position his letters would be highly influential.

    People keep harping on that it is the duty of a TD to make representations on behalf of their constituents, which is true. However it is not the duty of a TD to go out of their way to attempt to deny individuals access to housing - especially when the TD in question has responsibility for social housing. Not only is it morally wrong, but it is bordering on illegality also.

    Yeah, Hogan has an arrogance and superiority complex IMO. The unelected County Manager quango would be influenced by the minister's letter and Hogan knew what he was doing. Power is everything to this man and little accountability.


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    #76
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    In the absence of any evidence (other than Phil Hogans remark) can you stop referring to/implying anti-social behavior?

    You're perfectly right when you say "I said it'll come out in the wash". In the meantime there's been no actual evidence to suggest this.


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    #77
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    Cliste wrote: »
    In the absence of any evidence (other than Phil Hogans remark) can you stop referring to/implying anti-social behavior?

    You're perfectly right when you say "I said it'll come out in the wash". In the meantime there's been no actual evidence to suggest this.

    No, I don't see it as an irrelevance, if true it's an important part of what happened. It's been reported on radio and in national newspapers. I haven't seen evidence that the family have no anti social behaviour record either.


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    #78
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    I haven't seen evidence that the family have no anti social behaviour record either.

    :D

    Oh jaysus now! I not even bothered explaining how wrong this argument is!


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    #79
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    Cliste wrote: »
    :D

    Oh jaysus now! I not even bothered explaining how wrong this argument is!

    Sauce for the goose ;) hogans word seems to be dismissed so readily. I want to know why the family's claim to the contrary is believed so readily?

    There is an answer to this somewhere, until it's found then it's just guesswork.


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    #80
    Technocentral
    Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    No, I don't see it as an irrelevance, if true it's an important part of what happened. It's been reported on radio and in national newspapers. I haven't seen evidence that the family have no anti social behaviour record either.

    Bloody hell! Wheres the evidence that you don't have an anti social record? Thank f*ck people like you aren't running the country.


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    #81
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    Technocentral wrote: »
    Bloody hell! Wheres the evidence that you don't have an anti social record? Thank f*ck people like you aren't running the country.

    Apparently we are :cool:


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    #82
    Technocentral
    Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    Apparently we are :cool:

    I mean in sufficient numbers to spread hatred and prejudice even more than it is at the moment. :mad:


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    #83
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    It is incidental that they are travellers IMO.
    Technocentral wrote: »
    spread hatred and prejudice even more than it is at the moment. :mad:

    Slow down there chief before you fall all over your righteous indignation.

    It's of no consequence to me whether the family are or aren't travellers, Irish, foreign, or martians.

    It is the alleged anti social element that is of concern to me.


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    #84
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    I'll remind posters of the previous mod warning, if posters are going to make claims they should provide a link to an article or a radio/TV show to back it up, otherwise it's just he said, she said nonsense. Also keep replies civil please.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #85
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/im-not-anti-traveller-says-hogan-in-row-over-his-letter-3242102.html
    The minister claimed the family was involved in anti-social behaviour before.


    "There was an anti-social behaviour issue relating to that family who were already housed in that area going back to the 1990s," he said.


    Radio station, it was either RTE or Newstalk, can't remember.


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    #86
    Technocentral
    Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/im-not-anti-traveller-says-hogan-in-row-over-his-letter-3242102.html




    Radio station, it was either RTE or Newstalk, can't remember.

    What about the anti social elements sending letters threatening to shoot the family? They're the scumbags in this story, but of course they are probably settled people so thats ok.


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    #87
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/im-not-anti-traveller-says-hogan-in-row-over-his-letter-3242102.html




    Radio station, it was either RTE or Newstalk, can't remember.

    The family were interviewed by TV3 and the interview was broadcast on the Vincent Browne show last night, it can be seen on the TV3 website. In the interview the father eventually admitted that he'd been in trouble with the law before but didn't see how that should affect how his neighbours perceived him.

    Also on a tangential point but one which I noticed in the interview was that the family seemed to think that not only were they entitled for a house to be provided by the local authority but that when their children grew up that their children should automatically be entitled to a house also, I thought that was a bit much.

    I'd be pretty horrified if a family of travellers moved in near where I lived but... Phil Hogan (or his office, whatever) was still wrong to get involved in this issue in an official capacity.


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    #88
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    Technocentral wrote: »
    What about the anti social elements sending letters threatening to shoot the family? They're the scumbags in this story, but of course they are probably settled people so thats ok.

    I reported your post. I explained to you I am not interested in any families ethnicity.


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    #89
    Technocentral
    Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    I reported your post. I explained to you I am not interested in any families ethnicity.

    My point is that the revulsion should be aimed at the locals threatening to shoot these people not this family themselves, thats all.


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    #90
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    Technocentral wrote: »
    My point is that the revulsion should be aimed at the locals threatening to shoot these people not this family themselves, thats all.

    The Gardai should be pointed at anyone threatening to shoot someone.


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    #91
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    The Gardai should be pointed at anyone threatening to shoot someone.

    They have been, there is an ongoing investigation.


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