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Has the ESR experiment worked?

  • 19-09-2012 04:28PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭


    As we are rapidly coming to the end of the qualifying scores season. Wondering what are peoples thoughts on the success or otherwise of the Exceptional Scoring Reduction (ESR) brought in this year?

    My own feeling is that while it may have been a good idea on paper it has not worked that well.

    I think it has cut too many players to a low handicap that they are probably not able to play to. A player could have a couple of good rounds in a short purple patch which we all get and get cut from 11 to 9 and then anything upto another 2 shots cut immediately with the ESR. While a player may be steadily improving, to take a leap from 11 to potentially 7 in a matter of weeks is a bit mad.

    The UK system of the application of the cut being discretionary may well have been the better way to go. For those at the higher end where improvements can be quick say from 20 to 14 a 2 shot cut would not be impossible to deal with, as handicaps go lower each shot cut has more 'significance' so the ESR could be examined and applied if necessary by the handicap committee.


«13456

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    To be honest i think it has worked it has caught up the fast improver quickly and even the lower guys it is fair enough if you beat CSS by 4 twice u get a cut of 2.4 if you are in the 14/15 range is that enough?
    A handicap golfers average score over the season should be a 1/4 of your handicap added to your handicap so a 12 handicapper on a par 72 course should be averaging 87 for the season.
    There are too many golfers out there who will have there 2/3 good rounds a year and have there 12 or 13 . 1's and hardly move handicap.
    If your goal is to get as low as possible which it should be then it is great if you want a handicap that is competitive and will give me a good chance of winning a couple of comps then it is not good for you.
    Mike


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭bustercherry


    Yes it has, wish it was around a few years back; would have saved me a bit of effort.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Mr. Larson


    I can't make up my mind. If I was a Barton Cup selector I'd find it hard to put an ESR'd '6' (who started the year off 9) with an 8 in next years competition. I've seen people go from 9 to 5 in a matter of weeks and others go from 15 to 11 etc.

    Although my handicap is my most coveted prize, I'm kind of glad it wasn't in place last year. I'm currently off 10 & on my way back towards 11 playing like a 14 but last year I went from 13 to 9. If the ESR caught me last year I'd probably be a 7 playing like a 14 which wouldn't be very cool :) but I'd still be happy with my low handicap. I wouldn't pick me for f. all tho.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭Almaviva


    I would think it has been a very good move. And better compulsory than discretionary.

    Yes, it has cut some below what they will realistically hold, but better that than the too slow adjustment of the rapidly improving player which the system is prone to without the extra cut. Nor do I think it open to any deliberate exploitation by vanity handicap chasers - unike those who try to avoid handing in cards to preserve a handicap, the ESR does require the player to play real golf and put in a couple of good scores.

    Simply a guess, but I would say the majority of those it was applied to were young golfers getting into the game rather than long term golfers or golfer making a sudden skill improvement. So again, good, to bring players into line faster and err on the side of a lower handicap than a high one. If it is really beyond them, then they will drift back up pretty quickly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I think its a good thing.
    I'm sick saying it, but its supposed to be a good day when you play to your handicap. Far too many people can play "ok" and still have 36 points...your handicap is too high if this is you.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I'm sick saying it, but its supposed to be a good day when you play to your handicap.

    Where does this come from Greebo ? Not having a go at you but I really can't see the logic of it to be honest.

    Only asking because the CONGU website clearly states "average ability".
    See Q2 on the FAQs....
    Is this now out of date maybe ?

    http://www.congu.com/faqs/handicaps.pdf

    Personally I think average ability is the only sensible way to think of it, as you can refer to par or 36pts as a point of reference. Otherwise you're reducing "effective" par to, say, 32pts if thats what a players average is and if you think of handicap as number of shots he/she should be over par. If you think of handicap as something else then fair enough I suppose.

    I'd be of the view that, for example, broadly speaking a 12 handicapper should be in or around 12 over par, most of the time. Same for a 2 or a 22 handicapper.
    Just my opinion though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Russman wrote: »
    Where does this come from Greebo ? Not having a go at you but I really can't see the logic of it to be honest.

    Only asking because the CONGU website clearly states "average ability".
    See Q2 on the FAQs....
    Is this now out of date maybe ?

    http://www.congu.com/faqs/handicaps.pdf

    Personally I think average ability is the only sensible way to think of it, as you can refer to par or 36pts as a point of reference. Otherwise you're reducing "effective" par to, say, 32pts if thats what a players average is and if you think of handicap as number of shots he/she should be over par. If you think of handicap as something else then fair enough I suppose.

    I'd be of the view that, for example, broadly speaking a 12 handicapper should be in or around 12 over par, most of the time. Same for a 2 or a 22 handicapper.
    Just my opinion though.

    Average by definition means that you are over par as many times as you are under par. However golf isnt like that. Its *much* hard to be under par than it is to be over par. Hence why you only get 0.1 back but you can be cut from 0.1 all the way up to a full shot depending on your class.
    Its also the reason why there is a buffer zone. If it was an average score then there should also be a buffer zone thats under par.

    Take a read of this. You'll see that, taking their example,
    The Model predicts that a 5.8 handicap player, if correctly handicapped, would be
    expected have a Nett of the MGD of 3.2 (that is they play on average 3.2 shots over
    handicap); a player handicap 15.5 is expected to play 5.5 over; a 25.7 player 7.3 over. [It
    should be noted that a detailed analysis of over 9,000 scores from all Handicap Categories
    shows good agreement (within 1/2 a shot) between the Model and what happens in practice].

    /edit 1
    Also check out Q4 here
    The intent is that by placing a limit on the maximum score that can be recorded at any hole,
    Handicaps are more representative of a player’s potential ability.

    /edit 2
    also worthwhile noting that the better you get, the more likely your handicap is to be close to your average score, hence the reason the cuts/increments get closer and closer but its still not an average due to the buffer zone.

    If it was just an average then youd have to cut/increase equally and youd have people shooting 58 one week and 88 the next. The CONGU system attempts to balance the huge inconsistencies that golfers scores have, it does mean that for people who rapidly improve or disimprove their handicaps can be higher or lower than there current ability, but the majority of golfers are pretty stable, not improving or worsening rapidly.

    The data that every handicap secretary has "proves" the system when you look at players scores.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    "Interesting" thread about CONGU here
    Those disagreeing with the OP here pretty much sum up my opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 269 ✭✭MP62


    Sorry to derail the thread but can someone approach their club for a handicap increase?
    You can of course, let us know how you get on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    You would need to give them a reason (usually illness)
    Just saying "I'm playing badly" wont cut it (boom boom) as there is too much danger of you getting say 2 shots and all of a sudden you are 8 under some day when your game comes back to you.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭shay1604


    I joined a local golf club, my first time ever joining a club and i got a handicap of 15. I played pitch and putt for almost 14 yrs so i had the basics down as in swing and tempo. My query here is i had or am in the middle of a purple patch at the moment and have posted a few good scores. My course par is 67 and within the last few weeks i have have a score of 43 points and was cut 3, the next week i had a score of 38 and was cut 2.4, the week after i had another score of 43 and went from a handicap of 8.7 to 5.5. Altogether my handicap now is 5.5 in a total of 8 weeks i was cut 9 shots which i think is harsh. I was cut altogether 3.4 shots through this new e.s.r. rule. My question is shouls i approach the handicap secretary over this or is this a fair cut.
    Any thoughts welcome
    Seamus


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Mr. Larson


    Are you for real? Do you just want to keep being able to score 43pts? I think your expectations need a reality check. How have you been getting in off 6 or have you even tried playing to it yet?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    shay1604 wrote: »
    I joined a local golf club, my first time ever joining a club and i got a handicap of 15. I played pitch and putt for almost 14 yrs so i had the basics down as in swing and tempo. My query here is i had or am in the middle of a purple patch at the moment and have posted a few good scores. My course par is 67 and within the last few weeks i have have a score of 43 points and was cut 3, the next week i had a score of 38 and was cut 2.4, the week after i had another score of 43 and went from a handicap of 8.7 to 5.5. Altogether my handicap now is 5.5 in a total of 8 weeks i was cut 9 shots which i think is harsh. I was cut altogether 3.4 shots through this new e.s.r. rule. My question is shouls i approach the handicap secretary over this or is this a fair cut.
    Any thoughts welcome
    Seamus

    Crikey, good stuff. you must be a blinding p&p player, but even then it's a different ball game. Your driving must be excellent?

    Getting cut 9 shots is mental in 8 weeks, what were your three cards like? They are dead right to cut you imo.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭shay1604


    As i said man its my first yr playing golf. I had 14 yrs playing pitch and putt where if you won a comp no matter what score you had you were cut 2. I have tried today playing off 6 and i had 36 points. Don't get me wrong i dont mind playing off that score im proud of it I was just wondering if it sounded fair and i only had a few weeks of good play and i've lost two thirds of my handicap. I've been told to go to the secretary and i was told i deserved the cut aswell.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭shay1604


    I was playing off 0 in pitch and putt and to be honest my course is very forgiving if your a bit off on the tee. Thanks for your opinion i didnt want to look a fool going to the handicap secretary as i posted i'm happy enough to be playing off 6


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭John Divney


    They should cut one of your fingers off, 36 of six, in your first year, ENJOY!!!:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭shay1604


    Crikey, good stuff. you must be a blinding p&p player, but even then it's a different ball game. Your driving must be excellent?

    Getting cut 9 shots is mental in 8 weeks, what were your three cards like? They are dead right to cut you imo.

    I played off scratch in pitch and putt and to be honest i'd be averaging about 270 yrds on my drive but my course is very forgiving if youre off on the tee. Thanks for your opinion man i didnt want to look a fool going to the handicap secretary


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭shay1604


    They should cut one of your fingers off, 36 of six, in your first year, ENJOY!!!:)

    Ha Ha thanks man


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Mr. Larson


    shay1604 wrote: »
    As i said man its my first yr playing golf. I had 14 yrs playing pitch and putt where if you won a comp no matter what score you had you were cut 2. I have tried today playing off 6 and i had 36 points. Don't get me wrong i dont mind playing off that score im proud of it I was just wondering if it sounded fair and i only had a few weeks of good play and i've lost two thirds of my handicap. I've been told to go to the secretary and i was told i deserved the cut aswell.

    Ok. Anyway. Yes its fair in my opinion and would reflect poorly on you if you tried to push back on what is a mandatory cut.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭shay1604


    Mr. Larson wrote: »
    Ok. Anyway. Yes its fair in my opinion and would reflect poorly on you if you tried to push back on what is a mandatory cut.

    Thanks man i needed an unbiased opinion as my friends i play with told me to talk to the secretary. If it sounds right i'm happy with that thanks for the replies


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Mr. Larson


    Well done on such good scoring by the way. Impressive shooting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭shay1604


    Mr. Larson wrote: »
    Well done on such good scoring by the way. Impressive shooting.

    Thanks man i got new clubs and they made the world of difference. What do you play off?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Mr. Larson


    shay1604 wrote: »
    Thanks man i got new clubs and they made the world of difference. What do you play off?

    Off 10 at the moment. Got to 8 last year but couldn't hold it, 1.6 shots in the wrong direction this year! I'm just not good enough to hold single figures only playing once per week max. Played more last year hence getting to 8. Had genuine ambitions to get to 6 this year... dreaming I was ��


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭shay1604


    Mr. Larson wrote: »
    Off 10 at the moment. Got to 8 last year but couldn't hold it, 1.6 shots in the wrong direction this year! I'm just not good enough to hold single figures only playing once per week max. Played more last year hence getting to 8. Had genuine ambitions to get to 6 this year... dreaming I was ��

    Thats very good for once a week man in fairness i try getting out twice a week if i can. I found the range helped me something unreal i used to be confused between clubs and length which would be best so i used to go out with 2-3 clubs out of the bag and spend 20 mins to half an hour on each club and it gave me the confidence to hit like my 5-4 irons instead of a rescue club and within 60 yrds the pitch and putt comes into play if you have a p&p course near you i would def recommend going out once a week and just pitch from the grass instead of teebox. I'm averaging over the last few weeks 3 birdies a round i just have to keep the bogeys off the card.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭Webbs


    shay1604 wrote: »
    Thanks man i needed an unbiased opinion as my friends i play with told me to talk to the secretary. If it sounds right i'm happy with that thanks for the replies

    I'd say the hcap secretary would be a bit embarrassed that you got a hcap of 15 at start of year so going to him wouldnt be the best idea in the world :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,138 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Webbs wrote: »
    I'd say the hcap secretary would be a bit embarrassed that you got a hcap of 15 at start of year so going to him wouldnt be the best idea in the world :D

    Fair play on the cuts Shay, carrying on from Webbs point: Try not to look at it that you have been cut 9 shots in 8 weeks, if that's hard to handle or mentally adjust to, then look at it as the HC Sec getting your initial HC wrong.


    I'm guessing a scratch P&P'er would have to have an absolutely horrible long game to play off 15. You'd probably be able to play to 15 with only a PW and Putter in your bag :D

    If you've just had 36 points off 6 then don't even think about going near that HC Sec. As Webbs says, you won't be his friend, I'm sure he'll have gotten some stick from members for giving you 15 to start with.
    Just a word of warning, so you can prepare for it, I'd be expecting that he'll give you a observational cut over the winter.
    This can be applied at any stage throughout the year, but most clubs will review players scores over the winter, and when they're looking at yours, they might take another shot of you.

    Fair play again! I'm off to the P&P course for 14 years


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 315 ✭✭jukebox2310


    I have been hit with 2 ESR cuts thus summer of 2 and 1 shots respectively over the space of 6 weeks resulting in my handicap going from 11.6 to 5.8
    I don't consider myself a 6 handicapper - I gave merely played a couple of good rounds in a short period of time where the course has been playing shorter due to the weather.
    I think I will struggle with my new handicap but am just going to have to get on with it now even though I do think the cutting was severe plus there was nothing taken into account about the poor rounds that I have played


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 315 ✭✭jukebox2310


    I have been hit with 2 ESR cuts thus summer of 2 and 1 shots respectively over the space of 6 weeks resulting in my handicap going from 11.6 to 5.8
    I don't consider myself a 6 handicapper - I gave merely played a couple of good rounds in a short period of time where the course has been playing shorter due to the weather.
    I think I will struggle with my new handicap but am just going to have to get on with it now even though I do think the cutting was severe


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61 ✭✭GCW


    Has the ESR thing been canned or stopped working?

    I have noticed someone with a net diff of -6 & -4 in the space of 3 rounds who didn't get an ESR. I thought -4 or more was the trigger? They have been known to disappear from the system too...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭cairny


    GCW wrote: »
    Has the ESR thing been canned or stopped working?

    I have noticed someone with a net diff of -6 & -4 in the space of 3 rounds who didn't get an ESR. I thought -4 or more was the trigger? They have been known to disappear from the system too...

    No ESR for Category 1 players so that might explain it, is he low enough?


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