ESB to create new fibre powered ISP

lucernarian

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The goverrnment has invested lots in dark fibre and MAN's and until very recently precious little of that has benefited residents

That's a peculiar point. Firstly because part of the reason why there was a delay in the "dividends" stems from the comparative lack of national-level non-eircom fibre connectivity which at the time existed pretty much as the "figure of 8" ESB Telecoms network around Ireland along with BT fibre along railway lines. Cable and Wireless possibly had a fibre route through the northeast and into NI but I only saw that alluded to once. The point being that the use of those MANs which subsequently got Internet access was considerably raised after they got the connectivity needed. ENET themselves highlighted this as a big priority for them a few years ago in the first couple of years of them running the MANs.

Also, this underlines the point I made earlier. So long as the payback exists in the long term from this investment, it should (with continued will and no other confounding factors) eventually happen. The operating costs (and presumably depreciation) are rather low for GPON networks from what I've read on the subject but they're certainly lower than copper PSTN and lower than power supply infrastructure. The fibre network would be able to enjoy the incidental maintenance of e.g. poles thereof too. If the DCENR as shareholders are happy to allow working capital to be tied up in this joint venture and don't want to extract even more in the way of special dividends then I suspect that many rural areas as well urban areas would eventually get a full return for the ESB's investment.

I can't say for certain how the investment would work out for rural areas but I can think of those and plenty of other reasons for why it may be viable to extend the rollout to substantial parts of rural Ireland. This is being carried out as part of a joint venture with a private enterprise (Vodafone Ireland I think) and aside from the benefits of further sharing the risk in the rollout, presumably Vodafone would fancy their chances of recouping their investment.

damienirel

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

That's a peculiar point. Firstly because part of the reason why there was a delay in the "dividends" stems from the comparative lack of national-level non-eircom fibre connectivity which at the time existed pretty much as the "figure of 8" ESB Telecoms network around Ireland along with BT fibre along railway lines. Cable and Wireless possibly had a fibre route through the northeast and into NI but I only saw that alluded to once. The point being that the use of those MANs which subsequently got Internet access was considerably raised after they got the connectivity needed. ENET themselves highlighted this as a big priority for them a few years ago in the first couple of years of them running the MANs.

Also, this underlines the point I made earlier. So long as the payback exists in the long term from this investment, it should (with continued will and no other confounding factors) eventually happen. The operating costs (and presumably depreciation) are rather low for GPON networks from what I've read on the subject but they're certainly lower than copper PSTN and lower than power supply infrastructure. The fibre network would be able to enjoy the incidental maintenance of e.g. poles thereof too. If the DCENR as shareholders are happy to allow working capital to be tied up in this joint venture and don't want to extract even more in the way of special dividends then I suspect that many rural areas as well urban areas would eventually get a full return for the ESB's investment.

I can't say for certain how the investment would work out for rural areas but I can think of those and plenty of other reasons for why it may be viable to extend the rollout to substantial parts of rural Ireland. This is being carried out as part of a joint venture with a private enterprise (Vodafone Ireland I think) and aside from the benefits of further sharing the risk in the rollout, presumably Vodafone would fancy their chances of recouping their investment.

It'actually not that expensive to run fibre lines the problems/expense arise on connecting the whole thing up. Fibre networking is expensive - switches etc.
So running so called black fibre(i.e. tonnes of fibre cables in one pipe) is quite cheap and a sensible option is to lay this fibre while you're already digging for other reasons - this is what has been done already at no great expense. So large amounts of capital would be required for ftth to become a reality. Lets hope ESB have got what it takes - I would have more faith in them than Eircom purely because they have lots of capital.

BulliteShot

ESB: Shut up and take my money.

Mr. G

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The assets stripped off eircom would have paid for a nationwide FFTH setup.

UPC's rollout of BB over cable was delayed because they were forced to roll out digital TV.

Eircom spend several years "testing" DSL around Donnybrook before they even started the lethargic rollout that folllowed.

The goverrnment has invested lots in dark fibre and MAN's and until very recently precious little of that has benefited residents

ESB are a company still held in high regard compared to many of the ISP's by many consumers so there is the feel good factor of if you have to pay someone it might as well be them.


ESB rolling out FFTH ? More power to them

I agree -Their reputation would be a lot better

Kristopherus

Mr. G wrote: »

I agree -Their reputation would be a lot better

And that reputation has been enhanced by their excellent efforts over the past few weeks repairing the storm damage. Credit where credit is due:).

copeyhagen

esb confirmed their fibre to the home will be 1000mb. 1gb internet anyone!!

work starts 2014. all infrastructure is there, shouldnt take long..

Chris The Hacker

copeyhagen wrote: »

esb confirmed their fibre to the home will be 1000mb. 1gb internet anyone!!

work starts 2014. all infrastructure is there, shouldnt take long..

Link?

Danny Boy

copeyhagen wrote: »

esb confirmed their fibre to the home will be 1000mb. 1gb internet anyone!!

work starts 2014. all infrastructure is there, shouldnt take long..

spoofing

BulliteShot

What if they had a system where if you pay a significant setup fee to help them along, you will be on the top list of upgrades to 10 Gbps within the next 10 years from getting 1 Gbps.

Sully

BulliteShot wrote: »

What if they had a system where if you pay a significant setup fee to help them along, you will be on the top list of upgrades to 10 Gbps within the next 10 years from getting 1 Gbps.

I'd say a business model would fail there because the vast majority of people wouldn't pay for it.

BulliteShot

Yes, but I'm one of the small majority who would take a loan out for it.

Sully

BulliteShot wrote: »

Yes, but I'm one of the small majority who would take a loan out for it.

Why would you even need that speed connection?

swoofer

remember ESB are only in discussions with VF and with my experiences with VF all I can say is "god help us." Look at the VF broadband support board and you will understand why?

Headshot

GBCULLEN wrote: »

remember ESB are only in discussions with VF and with my experiences with VF all I can say is "god help us." Look at the VF broadband support board and you will understand why?

And VF are ****ers for taking their time to do anything.

BulliteShot

Sully wrote: »

Why would you even need that speed connection?

Not many people do, yet. You know Google gives out free 1 Gbps fibre to homes and businesses in certain parts of the USA? Hardily anyone uses that bandwidth - but the point is that it's future proof and there certainly will be new technologies developed that will take advantage of it. Bill Gates once said that computers will never need more than 1 MB of RAM. My current office computer has 32768 MB.

PLEASE don't be one of these people who says "we don't need it". That is absolutely idiotic. 1 Gbps connectivity would bring so much business to Ireland that it could turn our country into an epicentre for business and wealth.

GBCULLEN wrote: »

remember ESB are only in discussions with VF and with my experiences with VF all I can say is "god help us." Look at the VF broadband support board and you will understand why?

I think ESB are using Vodafone for funds mostly. ESB has the infrastructure and they have excellent customer service and an excellent network for electricity.

Sully

BulliteShot wrote: »

Not many people do, yet. You know Google gives out free 1 Gbps fibre to homes and businesses in certain parts of the USA? Hardily anyone uses that bandwidth - but the point is that it's future proof and there certainly will be new technologies developed that will take advantage of it. Bill Gates once said that computers will never need more than 1 MB of RAM. My current office computer has 32768 MB.

PLEASE don't be one of these people who says "we don't need it". That is absolutely idiotic. 1 Gbps connectivity would bring so much business to Ireland that it could turn our country into an epicentre for business and wealth.

At this present time, we don't need it from a householders point of view. In fact, the vast majority don't need 120mb either. It's good to be able to meet demand in terms of BB Speed. We have came along way from dialup and it took (and is taking) an age to catch up and meet demand.

Business wise, I do agree a decent fibre connection is required

I think ESB are using Vodafone for funds mostly. ESB has the infrastructure and they have excellent customer service and an excellent network for electricity.

Was it confirmed that ESB & Voda went into partnership?

BulliteShot

Sully wrote: »

At this present time, we don't need it from a householders point of view. In fact, the vast majority don't need 120mb either. It's good to be able to meet demand in terms of BB Speed. We have came along way from dialup and it took (and is taking) an age to catch up and meet demand.

Business wise, I do agree a decent fibre connection is required

I'm not saying they need to provide 1 Gbps "internet bandwidth", that's very expensive at the moment.

What if they provided 250 Mbps "internet" to compete with UPC, but a "1 Gbps LAN" to the rest of Ireland. For example, bandwidth which goes through INEX is free. Bandwidth which goes through EUNetworks, Cogent or Level3 is expensive.

The point is Fibre has the capacity for Terabits per second. Copper simply can't be pushed any more.

Sully wrote: »

Was it confirmed that ESB & Voda went into partnership?

http://www.independent.ie/tablet/technology/vodafone-in-talks-with-esb-over-400m-fibre-broadband-network-29996678.html

SpaceTime

Well coaxial copper i.e. UPC could be pushed to maybe 1 Gbit/s, it just involves more fibre nodes closer to houses. They're already quite small and very close by.

Even for UPC, it gets to the point at some stage that the fibre would be so close to your house it might as well be in your house.

Fibre's capable of very high speeds, but there's no affordable technology to provide 1TB/s to home users at present.

The fibre's the cheap bit! It's the optical encoders/decoders at the ends of the fibre that can become pricy.

Some of the very very high speeds are pretty much limited to trunk / backbone connections for ISPs and telecoms companies and 'big data' users like data centres.

BulliteShot

Don't forget that UPC coax is shared between houses too. So 1 Gbps at the moment would only be able to supply 5 houses 200 Mbps being fully used before congestion happens.

crawler

In theory DOCSIS 3.0 has no limit to the number of 8Mhz (about 50Mbps) channels that can be bonded BUT most Coax has a max of 900Mhx of capacity to carry everything. It's going to get harder for the cable guys on 4K TV comes in even with new encoding such as H.265 because TV will really need space.

Cable is always a shared medium but the trick it to keep the number of homes served off each node as low as possible.

In DOCSIS 3.1 this become more interesting as you dont need discreet 8Mhz channels and it can use loads of bits and pieces of cable spectrum and mash them all up to one bit pipe (If anyone wants the technical explnation ask or have a look at the cable labs spec)

At the end of it all though Coax is copper and has the same issue with interference (although well shielded) ingress noise, water ingress etc etc etc....as phone lines. That said Coax is better than twisted pair in just about every instance.

Fibre however is the ultimate means of delivering service. It's more or less immune to noise, speeds are guaranteed, latency is low, service can be symmertrical etc etc. Is it perfect? No, but it's pretty close Future trends in FSAN (www.fsan.org) and IEEE on optical technology are amazing too.

AlanS181824

The faster the speeds the better, I'm stuck with Sky with 10Mb on a former 16Mb connection in a Fibre area, I'm counting the days until I can leave and join Vodafone!

dub45

Surely though for most "ordinary" people the real concern is good wifi around the home and isps are going to have to reconsider their approach to the standard of the equipment they supply. For many people already ethernet is irrelevant. I am sure there must be houses where only tablets and phones are used? Also increasingly laptops are coming without ethernet ports.

STEINBERG

AlanS181824 wrote: »

The faster the speeds the better, I'm stuck with Sky with 10Mb on a former 16Mb connection in a Fibre area, I'm counting the days until I can leave and join Vodafone!

what is wrong with that 10mb connection? is it so you can download alot of stuff at once or what? because for the standard household 10mb is just fine to be honest why do you need anything faster?

AmilcarAlho

STEINBERG wrote: »

what is wrong with that 10mb connection? is it so you can download a lot of stuff at once or what? because for the standard household 10mb is just fine to be honest why do you need anything faster?

10 megs down/1 up ( if that much ) might be good for you, but more and more of us actually depend on internet for work. In my case, I work from home from time to time, random hours that coincide with netflix/skygo/other demanding services usage. With such a narrow pipe, it means my work gets affected, or someone will be unhappy if I ask them to stop using netflix or switch to lower bitrate ( what is the point of having a HD tv and having to use standard definintion?)

The definition of standard household is changing fast, with more and more devices hooked to the internet, in my house alone i have 7 devices, not counting the extra ones when people visit. Also, providing more bandwidth will create jobs.

Just to give an example, plenty of people would consider moving further away from the big cities if decent broadband was available. I now make it as one of my top priorities when looking for a new place to rent a fast and stable broadband option, as it will mean I can still work from home.

sibergoth

Does anyone have info on where exactly the ESB fibre to home will target?
And a rollout plan and schedule ?

All I can find is "urban areas outside Dublin in 2014”

If they are talking about half a million homes that could equate to a substantial portion of the country if outside Dublin....


Let's hope that they target areas that don't already have good broadband first... No point in competing in towns that already have UPC or eircom fibre... How about us neglected folks with 2.55Mpbs if we are lucky....

yomamasflavour

sibergoth wrote: »

Does anyone have info on where exactly the ESB fibre to home will target?
And a rollout plan and schedule ?

All I can find is "urban areas outside Dublin in 2014”

If they are talking about half a million homes that could equate to a substantial portion of the country if outside Dublin....


Let's hope that they target areas that don't already have good broadband first... No point in competing in towns that already have UPC or eircom fibre... How about us neglected folks with 2.55Mpbs if we are lucky....

If you look further down the thread, it's stated in their roll out manifesto(?) that they're concentrating on towns etc. with more than 4000 homes/businesses.

So not a rural roll-out, realistically it'll probably only be going into places already served by Eircom's FTC rollout and UPC.

SpaceTime

crawler wrote: »

In theory DOCSIS 3.0 has no limit to the number of 8Mhz (about 50Mbps) channels that can be bonded BUT most Coax has a max of 900Mhx of capacity to carry everything. It's going to get harder for the cable guys on 4K TV comes in even with new encoding such as H.265 because TV will really need space.

Cable is always a shared medium but the trick it to keep the number of homes served off each node as low as possible.

In DOCSIS 3.1 this become more interesting as you dont need discreet 8Mhz channels and it can use loads of bits and pieces of cable spectrum and mash them all up to one bit pipe (If anyone wants the technical explnation ask or have a look at the cable labs spec)

At the end of it all though Coax is copper and has the same issue with interference (although well shielded) ingress noise, water ingress etc etc etc....as phone lines. That said Coax is better than twisted pair in just about every instance.

Fibre however is the ultimate means of delivering service. It's more or less immune to noise, speeds are guaranteed, latency is low, service can be symmertrical etc etc. Is it perfect? No, but it's pretty close Future trends in FSAN (www.fsan.org) and IEEE on optical technology are amazing too.

The other issue is that Liberty/UPC is actually one of the world's largest players and sits on the standardisation committees for DOCSIS. It's very much cutting edge and not just another small operation buying products off-the-shelf. It's one of the world's largest cable operators.

UPC's pretty heavily involved with CableLabs a big non-profit R&D consortium.

So, it's at a slightly huge advantage over eircom in that regard in so far as it can draw on really enormous economies of scale and technical expertise.

...

Their network's also getting fibre closer and closer to end users, so it's really just a matter of swapping the final few hundred meters of trunk cable to fibre and you've a 100% FTTH solution. That's kind of how the cable industry's moving. You just keep inching slowly closer to the end user with fibre.

Eircom (or any PSTN provider) have a different design of network where it's radial from the cabinets rather than a tapped trunk.

Similarly though, they could start moving towards FTTH as needed by just providing fibre from those cabinets instead of phone lines.

Eircom's network is mostly in ducts underground and only appears above ground in older areas where it drops a single line to a house / building. Very little of the distribution is done overhead anymore.

In newer areas, it's fully ducted.

So, from their perspective, FTTH might not be as horrendously difficult as people are making out either. They've tons of ducts and you can use aerial fibre from a pole to drop to houses in older areas and you wouldn't have all that much work to do really other than replacing a short run of overhead cable.

Eircom's big advantage would probably be a very long-standing relationship with two huge suppliers Ericsson (going back to 1957) and Alcatel (late 1970s) together with a new relationships with Huawei. All of those companies can deliver really good solutions.

Eircom also has a huge local access network compared to UPC and a much bigger national backbone.

Competition between the two and with ESB jumping in now too is really going to make things very interesting!

Gonzo

yomamasflavour wrote: »

If you look further down the thread, it's stated in their roll out manifesto(?) that they're concentrating on towns etc. with more than 4000 homes/businesses.

So not a rural roll-out, realistically it'll probably only be going into places already served by Eircom's FTC rollout and UPC.

unfortunately this is going nowhere except back into the same communities that already either have UPC or decent Fibre connections. Rural and many semi rural communities left out once again.

bk

BulliteShot wrote: »

Don't forget that UPC coax is shared between houses too. So 1 Gbps at the moment would only be able to supply 5 houses 200 Mbps being fully used before congestion happens.

So is the FTTH technology the ESB will be using. They are going to be using GPON, which has a total of 2.5Gb/s shared amongst at least 32 homes.

So each home will only be getting 78mb/s dedicated. UPC current contention rates would be similar.

So ESB selling 1Gb/s is really just marketing, but I've no complaints about that, it is just fine and really UPC's 200mb/s is just marketing for most people too.

Also I wouldn't under estimate UPC. They are the largest cable company in the world (at least until Comcast and TWC merge in the US) and are leaders in developing DOCSIS.

UPC are capable of delivering 400mb/s today with their current network and technology. With DOCSIS 3.1 they will be able to deliver 1Gb/s to consumers (10Gb/s shared) over their current network. Beyond that, there network already has fibre within a few hundred meters of most of the homes in their network (much closer then Eircom), so it will be relatively straight forward for them to upgrade to FTTH when they need that capacity.

UPC are actually in a very healthy and competitive position. This is why the ESB for the most part won't be bringing their FTTH product to areas already serviced by UPC (of course there will be some overlap). Because they know that UPC can actually match the ESB's FTTH product.

Instead the ESB have wisely opted to become the "UPC" in non UPC areas. I guess they hope to win 40% of Eircoms customers in non UPC areas, just as UPC have done in their areas. A wise business decision IMO.

The reality is very few people have need for speeds faster then 100mb/s

I know I cringe when I say that, 15 years ago I laughed when people at Eircom said there was no need for broadband, because I could see HD IPTV, gaming, cloud services etc. coming and I knew we would need faster BB.

However I'm not really seeing any upcoming technologies that will demand 1Gb/s services.

HD IPTV is the most demanding application at the moment, it uses 10mb/s per stream, so even 50mb/s BB can handle it is easily.

The upcoming Ultra HD IPTV uses about 20 to 25 Mb/s, so even 100mb/s can easily handle it.

Beyond that there is really no technology on the horizon that requires 1Gb/s speeds. There maybe some revolutionary break through in technology (e.g. direct brain interfaces), but nothing currently on the horizon requires such high speeds.

Beyond 100mb/s, I believe services will become more important then pure speed.

- I believe UPC/Eircom/etc. will have to start delivering quality wifi routers, preferably dual band 802.11ac routers, so people can make most of the speeds they are actually paying for.

- UPC Horizon is very much the right idea, if so far it hasn't been implemented very well. People being able to stream any TV channel, catch up TV, IPTV to their tablets, etc. are all things people will want.

- I know it is controversial, but the UPC Free Wifi is a service which if implemented correctly, I think will be very popular.

- Higher upload speeds, to enable cloud services and people storing most of their digital media online.

It is services like these and similar which will be what people will be looking from ISP's in the foreseeable future.

To be honest, I think it is much more important to get 50mb/s BB to 100% of homes in Ireland, then the usual urban 40% getting 1Gb/s

BTW The whole Bill Gates memory thing is a myth and he never actually said it.

swoofer

I find this thread completely off the wall and if I was living in Kilmihill I would be going ...

ESB have done nothing so why not wait instead of all this rife speculation UPC is DUBLIN end of.