ESB to create new fibre powered ISP

bk

GBCULLEN wrote: »

ESB have done nothing so why not wait instead of all this rife speculation UPC is DUBLIN end of.

And Cork, Galway, Waterford, etc.

Not sure what point you are trying to make?

BulliteShot

I think you're missing the point about rolling out a fibre network. If you're going to spend so much money do it right and make it future proof. This is the network for the next 100 years. 56K modems used to be fast once upon a time.... a typical 8 Mbps DSL connection is 146x faster than dial-up. So if we saw the same kind of speed requirements advancing in the next 20 years then in 2034 a 1168 Mbps would be the equivalent.

Mc Love

If I can get faster than what I am getting I too will be making the switch to the ESB as we are in a non UPC area that is just outside their area and it looks like they wont be getting here anytime soon

sawdoubters

cost to run fiber

http://bbpmag.com/2011mags/marchapril11/BBP_MarApr_CostOfFiber.pdf

bk

BulliteShot wrote: »

I think you're missing the point about rolling out a fibre network. If you're going to spend so much money do it right and make it future proof. This is the network for the next 100 years.

Depends if you have an existing copper network or not.

If you don't, like the ESB, then it makes more sense to jump directly to FTTH.

If however you have an existing copper cable network (coax- UPC, UTP - Eircom), then it makes more sense to sweet your existing assets and gradually move the fibre closer and closer to your customers without actually doing full FTTH as the actual fibre drops into peoples homes can be very messy and expensive.

Yes, they will eventually do full FTTH, but it is better for them to approach it gradually.

BulliteShot wrote: »

56K modems used to be fast once upon a time.... a typical 8 Mbps DSL connection is 146x faster than dial-up. So if we saw the same kind of speed requirements advancing in the next 20 years then in 2034 a 1168 Mbps would be the equivalent.

As the ads often say "Past performance is no indication of future performance"

Back in the 56k days, those of us who were heavily involved in the internet could easily see the upcoming technologies that would demand high speed broadband.
We could all see streaming music, IPTV, online gaming, big downloads, etc.

The same isn't true today. I can't see any technologies beyond Ultra HD streaming that requires more then 100mb/s BB.

It is quiet possible that we have reached a peak in the demand curve and we are now into the law of diminishing returns, similar to the peak CPU's have hit *

* In the past you had to upgrade your PC almsot every year as new software demanded faster CPU performance and there was massive jumps in CPU performance. But a few years ago we hit a point where CPU performance so outstripped software needs, that even a 5 year old PC easily runs the majority of software. So now instead development of CPU's has changed it's focus from pure performance, to performance per watt (for mobile applications) and low cost (cheap smartphones).

It is quiet possible we will see the same happen with broadband speeds over the next few years, at least until there is some massive, revolutionary breakthrough in technology.

And that could be a good thing as in might allow rural areas the opportunity to catch up with urban areas and close the urban/rural divide.

crawler

8K tv is already in development BK as is the newer version of BDXL Wait until people start ripping those bad boys!!

I kinda agree with you that the demand curve may flatten PER DEVICE however, the number of devices in the home capable or demanding high bandwidth will increase. Look at the INEX traffic graphs from December as people plugged in their new toys from Santy

Capt'n Midnight

BulliteShot wrote: »

56K modems used to be fast once upon a time...

They were never fast. And rarely got to 56K , which was an enforced step back from 64K.

64K is because that is what voice calls were encoded as digitally back then and it was the most bandwidth they could give you without having to change anything on the network.

Consumer DSL was delayed a very long time because the telco's liked charging per minute.

bk

crawler wrote: »

8K tv is already in development BK as is the newer version of BDXL Wait until people start ripping those bad boys!!

I'm dubious that 4k TV will take off as a mass technology, never mind 8k TV.

The reality is you need very large TV's, 100" or more to take advantage of 4k TV. Such large TV's will be difficult to fit in your typical smaller Irish living room. Plus such TV's will be very expensive.

I think we may have hot a "good" enough point with HD TV's similar to the point we hit with music (mp3's and spotify being good enough versus the much higher audio quality of Super CD and DVD Audio) and to a lesser extent video (DVD's and Netflix being good enough versus Bluray).

Personally I don't think 4k and 8k will take off to anywhere the same extent as HD TV did and that they will be relatively niche, enthusiast market rather then taken up by the broader consumer market.

At least until we get to the stage where we can do very cheap, full wall TV's, ala Blade Runner.

crawler

bk wrote: »

I'm dubious that 4k TV will take off as a mass technology, never mind 8k TV.

The reality is you need very large TV's, 100" or more to take advantage of 4k TV. Such large TV's will be difficult to fit in your typical smaller Irish living room. Plus such TV's will be very expensive.

I think we may have hot a "good" enough point with HD TV's similar to the point we hit with music (mp3's and spotify being good enough versus the much higher audio quality of Super CD and DVD Audio) and to a lesser extent video (DVD's and Netflix being good enough versus Bluray).

Personally I don't think 4k and 8k will take off to anywhere the same extent as HD TV did and that they will be relatively niche, enthusiast market rather then taken up by the broader consumer market.

At least until we get to the stage where we can do very cheap, full wall TV's, ala Blade Runner.

the adult entertainment industry back 4K - it will take off

Good read here http://www.techradar.com/news/home-cinema/high-definition/ultra-hd-everything-you-need-to-know-about-4k-tv-1048954

Once H.265 is commonplace 4K will fit into current HD space (well, almost) so broadcasters can use it.

BulliteShot

bk wrote: »

Depends if you have an existing copper network or not.

If you don't, like the ESB, then it makes more sense to jump directly to FTTH.

If however you have an existing copper cable network (coax- UPC, UTP - Eircom), then it makes more sense to sweet your existing assets and gradually move the fibre closer and closer to your customers without actually doing full FTTH as the actual fibre drops into peoples homes can be very messy and expensive.

Yes, they will eventually do full FTTH, but it is better for them to approach it gradually.



As the ads often say "Past performance is no indication of future performance"

Back in the 56k days, those of us who were heavily involved in the internet could easily see the upcoming technologies that would demand high speed broadband.
We could all see streaming music, IPTV, online gaming, big downloads, etc.

The same isn't true today. I can't see any technologies beyond Ultra HD streaming that requires more then 100mb/s BB.

It is quiet possible that we have reached a peak in the demand curve and we are now into the law of diminishing returns, similar to the peak CPU's have hit *

* In the past you had to upgrade your PC almsot every year as new software demanded faster CPU performance and there was massive jumps in CPU performance. But a few years ago we hit a point where CPU performance so outstripped software needs, that even a 5 year old PC easily runs the majority of software. So now instead development of CPU's has changed it's focus from pure performance, to performance per watt (for mobile applications) and low cost (cheap smartphones).

It is quiet possible we will see the same happen with broadband speeds over the next few years, at least until there is some massive, revolutionary breakthrough in technology.

And that could be a good thing as in might allow rural areas the opportunity to catch up with urban areas and close the urban/rural divide.

But it's shiny.

bk

crawler wrote: »

Good read here http://www.techradar.com/news/home-cinema/high-definition/ultra-hd-everything-you-need-to-know-about-4k-tv-1048954

Nothing really here that contradicts what I said above.

At typical viewing distances (9 feet), you need a TV greater then 100" to take advantage of the extra resolution of 4k TV. See this chart here:

http://i.i.cbsi.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2013/01/27/resolution_chart.jpg

I'm a video enthusiast myself, I've a 50" Pioneer Kuro, still the greatest TV ever made. But I just don't see people running out to buy 100" TV's They are just far too large for the average Irish sitting room.

Of course 4k will come, but I don't think it will take off as a mass consumer product like HD TV did, instead I think it will be another consumer failure along with 3D TV, Smart TV and curved TV's. It will be a relatively niche technology.

Read this article for some more reasons why:

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57566079-221/why-ultra-hd-4k-tvs-are-still-stupid/

Anyway, Ultra HD requires just 20 to 25mb/s, so you still don't need 1Gb/s broadband speeds, 100mb/s can handle it.

Again I think is is far more important to get decent (say minimum 30mb/s BB) to 100% of Irish homes, then getting 1Gb/s to 60%.

Sure if commercial companies want to rollout 1Gb/s for marketing purposes, then cool, but it certainly shouldn't be our focus.

The exciting thing above the ESB FTTH rollout isn't so much the speeds, it is:

1) Bringing a second quality network to compete with Eircom in non UPC areas.
2) Fibre is much better suited to bringing broadband to rural homes then copper as it can operate without degradation out to 20km with no repeaters and out to 100km with. Also it doesn't suffer as much from water, etc.

copeyhagen

Danny Boy wrote: »

spoofing

confirmed to staff.

BulliteShot

^ Is there any way to thumbs down a post for bumping an unhelpful comment? PM me if you can.

copeyhagen

whats the problem, he accused me of spoofing, so i responded?

bk

MOD: Enough with the back and forth and back on topic.

copeyhagen thanks for confirming that the ESB plan on selling 1Gb/s BB. We would be interested to hear any other pieces of information you come across.

bk

MOD: Enough with the back and forth and back on topic.

copeyhagen thanks for confirming that the ESB plan on selling 1Gb/s BB. We would be interested to hear any other pieces of information you come across.

copeyhagen

i would copy and paste the article but dont wanna egt in trouble. theres a nice little movie that contains most the info that i wouldnt have been able to link anwyay.

chri

bk wrote: »

It is already being discussed over on the Eircom Fibre thread, but I think this is huge news, the biggest news in the Irish Broadband market since UPC came to Ireland and thus deserves it's own thread.

It looks like the ESB are looking to create a new ISP in a joint venture where they will run their own fibre optic cable to the home using the ESB's overhead electrical poles and ducts:

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=SEP384475

This is massive news as it brings another very large and wealthy player to the market, but most importantly brings a third completely independent network to the market and it looks like they will be using the best and fastest technology available and have an advantage of using the ESB's existing infrastructure.

If done right, this could really shake up the Irish broadband market.

From the tender docs they say they plan on targeting urban and semi-urban areas outside Dublin. This sounds like they want to target non-rural areas not already serviced by UPC.

This makes a lot of sense, while Eircom might be targeting the same areas with their new VDSL2+ products, ESB's fibre to the building products would be able to offer speeds and prices that would easily blow Eircom away. However it would be much harder for them to compete with UPC, due to UPC's already high speeds.

Interestingly the ESB won't actually be selling broadband directly to customers, instead they will act as wholesalers and other ISP's can then buy capacity on the network to sell to customers.

I can certainly see BT (and thus Vodafone and Sky who use BT's network) signing up for this.

Interestingly UPC could also sign up to use it, to offer broadband and IPTV in areas they currently don't service.

Eircom would be the big losers with this news. However eventually they could also use this network, if they still exist!!

Very interesting times ahead

12 years later and still no sign of this electrafine broad band

kaizersoze

chri wrote: »

12 years later and still no sign of this electrafine broad band

12 years??

BulliteShot

I disagree with the mod who removed bk's last reply. Please stop over-moderating!

OneEightSeven

BulliteShot wrote: »

I disagree with the mod who removed bk's last reply. Please stop over-moderating!

Bk is a mod of this forum.

The Cush

From today's Irish Indo - What will ESB/Vodafone fibre network do to entice new punters?

red_bairn

The Cush wrote: »

From today's Irish Indo - What will ESB/Vodafone fibre network do to entice new punters?

Very good news that they've got the green light.

Capt'n Midnight

red_bairn wrote: »

Very good news that they've got the green light.

Chill, just because it's in the indo doesn't make factual

But fingers crossed.

But if it competes against Eircom, won't Vodafone then be competing against itself?
What ?
Vodafone won't be competing with themselves. It's like asking if Discovery Channel cares if one of their customers moves from SKY to UPC.

Except of course that with the ESB they move from being a reseller to a partner and it may also give them leverage when negotiating with Eircom in future (though there isn't a lot that can be done on many wholesale prices themselves because of Comreg ). So it might be a little closer to comparing watching SKY1 on UPC to watching it on a SKY box.



. Does Eircom (or anyone else who asks) get access to the new ESB-Vodafone fibre network if it wants to resell services from it?
as the article says "The ESB tends to look at projects that can deliver a 30-year timeframe," one source said to me recently. so ESB could simply pass on the upfront roll-out cost to the resellers.

The Cush

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Chill, just because it's in the indo doesn't make factual

The Bill that allows it is in its final stage in the Oireachtas - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2014031100036?opendocument#JJ00200

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=25169&&CatID=59&StartDate=01 January 2013&OrderAscending=0

bk

The business plan is very clear, it is to become the UPC of areas not served by UPC.

UPC has been able to capture 40% of homes in areas they service by selling very high speed broadband and triple play TV services.

I expect that the ESB goal is to do the same in areas not serviced by UPC, by offering very high speed BB (1 Gb/s) and probably TV services too.

It will basically guarantee that every urban and semi urban area of Ireland has at least two networks (Eircom/UPC or Eircom/ESB) and that is very good news.

I also expect Vodafone will continue to resell Eircom eFibre. I expect when someone contacts Vodafone to buy broadband it will go something like:

- Can you get ESB Fibre, sell that.
- If not, sell them Eircom eFibre
- If not, sell them ADSL

Or perhaps the option will be:
- 1Gb/s ESB Fibre or
- 100mb/s Eircom eFibre

Though I think the latter is less likely, I would expect them to want to sell as much ESB eFibre as possible.

In fact, I'm kind of surprised UPC haven't done this, become a reseller of Eircom's eFibre in areas with no UPC cable service. They could even sell TV services with a IPTV version of the Horizon box.

I'm even more surprised that UPC aren't the ones partnering with the ESB. That would have been a perfect fit, allowing UPC to expand out into non UPC areas.

Cheerful Spring

bk wrote: »

The business plan is very clear, it is to become the UPC of areas not served by UPC.

UPC has been able to capture 40% of homes in areas they service by selling very high speed broadband and triple play TV services.

I expect that the ESB goal is to do the same in areas not serviced by UPC, by offering very high speed BB (1 Gb/s) and probably TV services too.

It will basically guarantee that every urban and semi urban area of Ireland has at least two networks (Eircom/UPC or Eircom/ESB) and that is very good news.

I also expect Vodafone will continue to resell Eircom eFibre. I expect when someone contacts Vodafone to buy broadband it will go something like:

- Can you get ESB Fibre, sell that.
- If not, sell them Eircom eFibre
- If not, sell them ADSL

Or perhaps the option will be:
- 1Gb/s ESB Fibre or
- 100mb/s Eircom eFibre

Though I think the latter is less likely, I would expect them to want to sell as much ESB eFibre as possible.

In fact, I'm kind of surprised UPC haven't done this, become a reseller of Eircom's eFibre in areas with no UPC cable service. They could even sell TV services with a IPTV version of the Horizon box.

I'm even more surprised that UPC aren't the ones partnering with the ESB. That would have been a perfect fit, allowing UPC to expand out into non UPC areas.

I'm guessing here, UPC is very selective, they pick and choose areas they bring fibre to . ESB is 95% state owned. I believe the Irish Government wants to see real progress in the rollout of better broadband services to rural areas. Vodaphone therefore was a better option for ESB

ESB, better get going soon though. Eircom is rolling out fibre to most of the big towns already. By the end of the summer the majority of the larger towns with be connected to fibre. For most people 100 megs's with vectoring is fast enough. Will faster speeds with ESB be enough to want to switch?

ESB will also have to be competitive with pricing for people to consider moving from Eircom to ESB, i would think? This is why i think ESB needs to get in there now before Eircom.


The government targets of 30mb for every household in Ireland by 2015 isn't going to happen either.

bealtine

crawler wrote: »

8K tv is already in development BK as is the newer version of BDXL Wait until people start ripping those bad boys!!

I kinda agree with you that the demand curve may flatten PER DEVICE however, the number of devices in the home capable or demanding high bandwidth will increase. Look at the INEX traffic graphs from December as people plugged in their new toys from Santy

I tend more towards this perspective that homes need more and more bandwidth as more devices become "internet aware" (that description sucks but is useful).
I foresee a future where the fridge talks to the electricity supplier and that supplier tells the fridge to reduce consumption etc etc.

Homes now have multiple tablets and PCs (TVs too when IPTV is used) all demanding more and more slices of the bandwidth pie. I myself have 6 devices all demanding bandwidth.

So I think we need more and more bandwidth per home in the near future and while VDSL is great for what it is ultimately it's just a stopgap measure, FTTH is the answer for the future...

bk

bealtine wrote: »

I tend more towards this perspective that homes need more and more bandwidth as more devices become "internet aware" (that description sucks but is useful).
I foresee a future where the fridge talks to the electricity supplier and that supplier tells the fridge to reduce consumption etc etc.

I'm not so sure about that, most such connected devices use incredibly small amounts of data. I know because I'm very much into this area.

I've a wifi enabled gas thermostat, wifi enabled LED lights, wifi enabled energy monitors, wifi enabled security system, etc.

They all use incredibly small amounts of data. As in kb/s. My old 16mb/s service was more then easily up to this. What is important for such services is reliability and stability, not bandwidth.

Between me and my housemate, we have 7 PC/laptops, 7 game consoles of all types, two iPhones, three iPads, an 8TB Raid 5 NAS, 2 50" TV's and two gigabit ethernet ports in every room. Oh and signed up to Netflix and Spotify.

Oh and I almost forget Apple Airport Express in every room powering speakers for whole apartment music system.

Some serious networking going on at my place and very much at the cutting edge of the "internet of things"

Yet when we went from Smart 16mb/s to UPC 120mb/s we saw almost no real world difference in download speeds. We saw a massive, very welcome, 20 fold increase in upload speed, but the download speed was fine.

Even with 16mb/s we were still able to do two Netflix/Youtube HD streams at the same time.

So really it isn't about "internet aware" devices or even how many devices you have, it really is about how many people live in your home. It doesn't really matter if you have 6 devices, the reality is you are going to be only using one device at a time per person.

So lets say have a big house, with 6 people sharing (a family or students) and they all happen to be home at the same time and all happen to be streaming different HD videos at the same time, you are still only using 50 to 60 mb/s of bandwidth.

I really don't see any need in the short to medium term for giagbit FTTH. Of course it is nice to have and we will get there eventually, but I just don't think it should be a priority for the time being.

I'm convinced that getting a minimum of 30mb/s quality, wired broadband to every home in Ireland is a much more important priority.

Cheerful Spring

Eircom is likely going to use GFast in the coming years on their network.

G.fast, promising up to 1 Gbit/s over existing copper telephone wires at lower costs

Eircom hinting at it.

We continue to work closely with our global vendors, such as Huawei, to explore further hugely exciting technological developments in this area, such as G.Fast, which offers the potential of future step changes in both upload and download broadband speeds by driving fibre further out into our network,” Lennon said.

Video explaining it and speeds will be just as good if not better than FTTH?