US Ambassador to Libya killed by mob

NTMK

christmas2012 wrote: »

point out where im making all these assumptions so

In the end she was murdered by a bunch of muslims,they didnt much like having females in power,and tell that to the afghanis that set up a political party with both men and women who were beheaded,is that the tolearance we are talking about..?



I have read some bits of the quaran and from what ive seen,its full of intolerance,im suprised muslims can function with so much hate coursing through their veins for us,its remarkable they get anything done with five rounds on a prayer mat.

.

christmas2012

In the end she was murdered by a bunch of muslims,they didnt much like having females in power,and tell that to the afghanis that set up a political party with both men and women who were beheaded,is that the tolearance we are talking about..?

I was referring to benazier bhutto,she did get death threats when she was in power,what western country do western women in politics,get death threats from catholics or lay catholics or even non believers,or even orthodox christians?

I never made assumptions in that quote,in reference to those who were beheaded in afghanistan,for having a dual sex political party..That did actually happen.

Laminations

christmas2012 wrote: »

I was referring to benazier bhutto,she did get death threats when she was in power,what western country do western women in politics,get death threats from catholics or lay catholics or even non believers,or even orthodox christians?

US democratic congresswoman Gabrielle Gifford?

NTMK

christmas2012 wrote: »

I was referring to benazier bhutto,she did get death threats when she was in power,what western country do western women in politics,get death threats from catholics or lay catholics or even non believers,or even orthodox christians?

I never made assumptions in that quote,in reference to those who were beheaded in afghanistan,for having a dual sex political party..That did actually happen.

She got tons of death threats as do most world leaders.she was also in charge of Pakistan when a massive recession occurred.
tell me what was the religion of the people that elected her?

An congress women was shot in the US by a nutjob that was atheist would you associate atheists with this shooting

Anders Brevik's massacre and the shaman murders in peru last year were performed by christians as well as the anti abortion killings in the us


The IRA killed alot of civilians and we were all treated as terrorist by some sections of society same is happening to muslims now

you could easily tar every religion as violent by its vocal/extremist minority

christmas2012

An congress women was shot in the US by a nutjob that was atheist would you associate atheists with this shooting

Anders Brevik's massacre and the shaman murders in peru last year were performed by christians

the anders brevik thing?wow..those are isolated cases,but in contrast to muslim mob lynches there are loads..Maybe its because they have no TVs or jobs i cant exactly put my finger on it,but a guess would be to do with their religion,as its all some of them have in their own country to get by..

NTMK

christmas2012 wrote: »

the anders brevik thing?wow..those are isolated cases,but in contrast to muslim mob lynches there are loads..

I wouldnt call them isolated cases just some of the most recent examples

You have the Lords Resistance Army in Uganda
the KKK in the states
2-3 terrorist groups in india

Maybe its because they have no TVs or jobs i cant exactly put my finger on it,but a guess would be to do with their religion,as its all some of them have in their own country to get by..

or maybe just maybe its to do with the political situation in the majority of muslim countries
You never hear a peep out of turkey a country thats population is 96% muslim
because politicly its stable

The hate these people share of the us usually is seen in any country they've interfered i.e Most south american countries.

The way you talk about muslims in general has me convinced that the closest youve ever come in contact

Laminations

NTMK wrote: »

You never hear a peep out of turkey a country thats population is 96% muslim
because politicly its stable

That's not exactly true now s it.

It's just as disingenuous to underestimate the problems of radicalism in Islam as it is to overestimate them. Recognising there are problems across the world in Islam (but it still being a minority) is not anti-Islamic Criticising elements of Islam (like sexism) is not anti-Islamic

marozz

NTMK wrote: »

I wouldnt call them isolated cases just some of the most recent examples

You have the Lords Resistance Army in Uganda
the KKK in the states
2-3 terrorist groups in india



or maybe just maybe its to do with the political situation in the majority of muslim countries
You never hear a peep out of turkey a country thats population is 96% muslim
because politicly its stable

The hate these people share of the us usually is seen in any country they've interfered i.e Most south american countries.

The way you talk about muslims in general has me convinced that the closest youve ever come in contact

Turkey is unusual in that has both a dominant Islamic population as well as a secular government not operating under Sharia law.

Einhard

christmas2012 wrote: »

In the end she was murdered by a bunch of muslims,they didnt much like having females in power,and tell that to the afghanis that set up a political party with both men and women who were beheaded,is that the tolearance we are talking about..?

She was murdered by people who were against her politically, not because she was a woman.

As for the second part, there are female Afghan MPs, and I imagine they'd be deeply offended by your comments about their religion.

They might also point out that Ireland is 85th in the world for % of female parliamentarians. Ahead of Ireland are Iraq, Afghanistan, Tunisia, Bosnia and Herzogovina, Indonesia and a whole host of other Muslim majority countries. Yet apparently, these nations, with more female MPs than our own, and some with more than the UK and France and other Western nations, are psychotically anti-women? Could you explain that for me? Could you also perhaps explain why abortion is more readily available in a legal form in the Muslim world than it is for Irish women? Irish women have to get the boat to England to exercise what many see as a right; Turkish women have that right in their own country. And yet Turkey hated women? Please...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/mar/07/women-representation-in-politics-worldwide

One of the very reasons i bought the book,was to get a different perspective,she
was a muslim,a non practicing muslim now,but she was a muslim.Thats why i bought
the book.I very much think by what she has written has a very good knowledge and
inside track on islam.I wouldnt have bought her book otherwise..

The mistake you're making is to think that simply because Ali Hirsi was formerly Muslim that she has some unique inside track on the religion, and that what she states is the truth. That's not necessarily the case at all. At various stages of Irish history, Irish men and women denounced their countrymen in Britain. Of course, the British saw this as confirmation of their own prejudices, when in reality it was a reflection of the attitudes of those Irish people denouncing their compatriots, and not on Irish people in general.

Hirsi Ali used to be Muslim. Now she's an atheist. And is vociferous in her antagonism towards Islam. Chrtistopher Hitchens used to be Christian. Then he became atheist. And was vociferous in his denunciation of Christianity. Does that mean therefore, that he was entirely correct? Do you authomatically share Hitchens' view of Christianity simply because he was once a Christian? I doubt it.

One more example: there have been several al Queda members over the past decade who were born and raised in America as Christians. They now despise America, and wish to destory it. They obviously connemn their country and their former religion to their fellow terrorists. And those terrorists no doubt have all their own prejedices about the Great Satan confirmed by these American converts, who must have an inside track into the American system. Just as you do with Ali Hirsi. They, like you, simply wish to be confirmed in their prejudices and bigotry.

I have read some bits of the quaran and from what ive seen,its full of
intolerance,im suprised muslims can function with so much hate coursing through
their veins for us,its remarkable they get anything done with five rounds on a
prayer mat.

Nonsense. The only parts of the Koran you've read are those parts quoted in Ali Hirsi's books, and in similar sources. You're not interested in finding out and making up your own mind. You simply want your own prejuedices confirmed, and are using your narrow, biased "researches" to give your xenophobia a thin veneer of respectability.

When some of them come to western countries how come there are honour killings
practiced and domestic situations?They have the freedom of choice and they
choose this?

There are almost 3 million Muslims in Britain. The British police estimate that about 12 people are victim to honour killings every year. Twelve people. And yet chose to condemn all 3 million because of the tragic killings of a dozen people? That's simply astonishing.

You also ignore the issue of honour killings in non-Muslim societies. In certain Indian states, honour killings are a major problem. They're often carried out by Hindus in response to a perceived offence against their caste or the caste system in general.

Until 1991 in Brazil, the killing of a wife was legally defined as a non-criminal honour killing. In a Catholic country.

I'd like to hear your response to all this, but I doubt you have a coherent one, simpy because it doesn't suit your convenient narrative about honour killings being confined to Islam. So you'll no doubt ignore it. You don't want to understand, you simply want your prejudices confirmed. And that's sad, because there's no worse ignorance than willful ignorance.

But i am open to some mind changing experiences if there is any islamic
literature to be read or any good books you could suggest i would take a
look..

If you really want to broaden your horizons, the most important thing is not to read, but simply to use your head. Think about things rather than simpy accept what you're told to believe. I mean, you cite honour killings as evidence aganst Islam, yet ignore the fact that it's prevalent outside that religion too. You describe Islam as psychotically anti-women, yet ignore all the Musim nations with more female MPs than Ireland. You don't need to read loads to open your mind. Just open it!!

If you really want to read about islam...I'd start first with the Koran. Read the whole thng rather than excerpts chosen by those who hate Islam. Compare it to the Christian and Jewish holy books. I don't have any books I can recommend on islam per se, but if you're looking for an interesting insight into the mind of one medieval Islamic scholar, try the works of Ibn Battuta. He's the Muslim equivalent of Marco Polo, and travelled across the Islamic world in the 14th century. The world he describes of Muslims and Christians and Jews living together in reatve harmony is a world apart from the situation in Europe at the time, when Jews were hounded and harassed, and Muslims personae non grata.

Einhard

christmas2012 wrote: »

I was referring to benazier bhutto,she did get death threats when she was in power,what western country do western women in politics,get death threats from catholics or lay catholics or even non believers,or even orthodox christians?

Anna Lindh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Lindh

Also, Bhutto wasn't assasinated because she was a woman, any more than al queda wish to kill Obama because he is black. It's not because of who they are, but what they stand for.

Denerick

The problem with these kind of debates is the knowledgable, reasoned and measured posters (who know who they are) get tired and frustrated by those who rehash talking points, restate tired old slogans and events taken out of any historical context, and who resort to propaganda in place of what might resemble a learned discussion. Islam has to be the least understand religion (Like Christianity there are many sects, but don't let that get in the way of ignorance), and Arabs the least understood civilisation, in the world.

NTMK

Laminations wrote: »

That's not exactly true now s it.

It's just as disingenuous to underestimate the problems of radicalism in Islam as it is to overestimate them. Recognising there are problems across the world in Islam (but it still being a minority) is not anti-Islamic Criticising elements of Islam (like sexism) is not anti-Islamic

Of course
there is still a large amount of things wrong with islam as you pointed out (sexism, honour killings, etc) and ive absolutely no problems condemning those acts.

It just irks me when someone views the majority of muslims as violent religious nuts based on whats happening in some of the worlds most unstable countries.

Manic Moran

As an amusing side note to the black people thing, the Afghans in our area believed our black soldiers to be cannibals. We discovered this after enquiring as to why the locals generally had no problems with their kids playing with us, but they were quite pro active about keeping the kids away from the few black soldiers we had. (only two or three out of 200 in our unit)

Suff

This violent response to assaults on the dignity of the Prophet is not the example of the Prophet himself.
Simply put, this is not What Muhammad Would Do. The Prophet Muhammad himself was repeatedly mocked, cursed, and even stoned during his life. As documented in the book: Memories of Muhammad by Omar Safi (Professor of Islamic Studies at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, specializing in contemporary Islamic thought and classical Islam. An award-winning teacher and speaker), his enemies even paid to have children stone him, yet Muhammad refused to curse enemies, as he was sent as a “mercy to all the worlds” according to the words of the Qur’an.' but 'Every time that there is an offensive piece written to target Muslim sensitivities, there is the temptation to cast it as an issue of “freedom of speech”, held to be absolute, vs. the religious sensitivity of Muslims.

That framework is either unhelpful or at best only partially helpful. In reality, pieces like the “Innocence of Muslims” so-called film are best classified as “hate speech,” as they seem to be of the same genre as anti-Semitic films of the 1930’s or Birth of the Nation KKK movies.'

the link below leads to twelve points to keep in mind, in an attempt to bring some sanity to a controversy that has already generated far more heat than light:
LINK

Frank Grimes

christmas2012 wrote: »

point out where im making all these assumptions so

Apart from everything Ayaan Hirsi Ali says being the gospel truth, how about:

christmas2012 wrote:

psychotic hatred for those who are black

christmas2012 wrote:

there is no room for ''moderates'' given the sheer nature of the religion itself,and those who feign moderation,are quick to fall back in line with the rest of them

christmas2012 wrote:

im suprised muslims can function with so much hate coursing through their veins for us,its remarkable they get anything done with five rounds on a prayer mat.

Have you ever even met a Muslim?

Laminations

Islam (like any religion) has no inherent quality - good or bad - it is how people interpret it that's the problem. It's a tool which people use to give themselves purpose and comfort or which people use to justify bloody mayhem. There is little point arguing about the interpretation of scripture (Mohammad thought this, Jesus said that) because someone else has their twisted way to interpret and use it. Like a hammer, there is no inherent good or bad and people can use it to be constructive or destructive (but they'll still see their actions as constructive). There is as much point in coming out and saying Islam is good as there is in saying hammers are good - its just that most people use them responsibly and constructively.

Organised religion can be very good, it can give people hope, solace, inspiration but once you have beliefs that someone else controls your acts and your fate you have a recipe for disaster which has plagued us since the time of Egyptian sacrifices through the crusades to the modern day jihadist holy war

JustinDee

Denerick wrote: »

Islam is an egalatarian religion by the way, its one of the reasons why it was adopted by so many black people in the first place (Think of the black nationalists in the US for an example)

There is no such thing as an "egalatarian" religion. Seriously. How many female imams are there in the world? Ten? More than ten? How many female roman catholic priests? How many women can sit front-floor at Shul?

However, this is a politics forum so I would ask a mod to move thread to a more relevant section of Boards. Anecdotal rubbish and generalisms tend to drag irrelevant threads like this even further through the depths.

wes

christmas2012 wrote: »

In the end she was murdered by a bunch of muslims

So your going to ignore the fact that millions of Pakistani's elected her, and instead focus on the small amout of taliban who killed her.

Btw, her party won the election after her death and are still in charge in Pakistan (there doing a terrible job however).

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

So your going to ignore the fact that millions of Pakistani's elected her, and instead focus on the small amout of taliban who killed her.

Btw, her party won the election after her death and are still in charge in Pakistan (there doing a terrible job however).

Slight aside here but who actually did assassinate Bhutto? Is it known?

Denerick

JustinDee wrote: »

There is no such thing as an "egalatarian" religion. Seriously. How many female imams are there in the world? Ten? More than ten? How many female roman catholic priests? How many women can sit front-floor at Shul?

However, this is a politics forum so I would ask a mod to move thread to a more relevant section of Boards. Anecdotal rubbish and generalisms tend to drag irrelevant threads like this even further through the depths.

By egalitarian (I realise I mis-spelt it earlier) you need to look at it from a comparative perspective. Egalitarian in the sense that all are equal under the eyes of God, that there are no superior persons more likely to inhabit God's favour because of their birth, wealth, social status. A surprisingly large number of religions are only open to those who were born into it. Islam, like Christianity is a universal faith and is egalitarian in its philosophy. Believe what you want to believe by the way, I've long since lost any interest in continuing this rather pathetic thread, populated by it is by ignorance, 'anecdotal rubbish' and 'generalisms'.

Fromthetrees

JustinDee wrote: »

There is no such thing as an "egalatarian" religion. Seriously. How many female imams are there in the world? Ten? More than ten? How many female roman catholic priests? How many women can sit front-floor at Shul?

However, this is a politics forum so I would ask a mod to move thread to a more relevant section of Boards. Anecdotal rubbish and generalisms tend to drag irrelevant threads like this even further through the depths.

Where would you move a thread about political Islam to? Militant Islamism is one of the most pertinent issues of this time.
The rise of anti Islamic political parties right across Europe is a worrying occurrence that doesn't seem to be addressed nearly enough. Writing it off as ignorance of Islam and sure the Catholic Church were peados like many posters here are doing just isn't good enough.
If moderate Muslims don't emerge from the Arab Spring as the dominant voice than Islamaphobia will only grow in the West. Looks like Egypt is already a write-off.

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

Slight aside here but who actually did assassinate Bhutto? Is it known?

It is taught to be the Pakistani Taliban to the best of my knowledge.

There is some conspiracy stuff saying it was Musharaf and the ISI as well.

christmas2012

Islam (like any religion) has no inherent quality - good or bad

did you read the part where it says kill the unbeliever,and force him into the narrowest alleyway?You cant just ignore the hate in that whole book and say religion has no inherent quality - good or bad,its very naive,presumptous,and stupid.

How many female imams are there in the world?

none

Have you ever even met a Muslim?

Yes i have he was a pakistani muslim from britain and tried desperately to convert me but to no avail.

Frank Grimes

christmas2012 wrote: »

did you read the part where it says kill the unbeliever,and force him into the narrowest alleyway?You cant just ignore the hate in that whole book and say religion has no inherent quality - good or bad,its very naive,presumptous,and stupid.

You said earlier you have only read parts of the Qur'an so how can you categorically state that? The verse you're misquoting doesn't say alleyway either, I assume Ayaan must have got that wrong.

christmas2012 wrote:

none

Not true - google for more examples.

christmas2012 wrote:

Yes i have he was a pakistani muslim from britain and tried desperately to convert me but to no avail.

So basically you're basing your entire 'knowledge' of Islam and Muslims on one of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's books and "bits" of the Qur'an presumably in that book or on some anti-Islam website. Well done.

christmas2012

Okay take out alleyway then,the sentiment is still there,kill the unbeliever force him off his path where you see him..

Here's the story about the alleged rape and body dragging:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...libya-reporte/

This is what happened to the us ambassador to libya..

wes

christmas2012 wrote: »

This is what happened to the us ambassador to libya..

From your own link:

UPDATE 3:35 AM EST. - The Lebanon report on the murdered U.S. ambassador, Christopher Stevens, in Libya remains unconfirmed by the AFP.

So its unconfirmed, as per the article itself.

Eggy Baby!

Laminations wrote: »

Islam (like any religion) has no inherent quality - good or bad - it is how people interpret it that's the problem. It's a tool which people use to give themselves purpose and comfort or which people use to justify bloody mayhem. There is little point arguing about the interpretation of scripture (Mohammad thought this, Jesus said that) because someone else has their twisted way to interpret and use it. Like a hammer, there is no inherent good or bad and people can use it to be constructive or destructive (but they'll still see their actions as constructive). There is as much point in coming out and saying Islam is good as there is in saying hammers are good - its just that most people use them responsibly and constructively.

Organised religion can be very good, it can give people hope, solace, inspiration but once you have beliefs that someone else controls your acts and your fate you have a recipe for disaster which has plagued us since the time of Egyptian sacrifices through the crusades to the modern day jihadist holy war

Islam is full of sects and fundamentalists because of the lack of a central religious body.

Einhard

christmas2012 wrote: »

did you read the part where it says kill the unbeliever,and force him into the narrowest alleyway?You cant just ignore the hate in that whole book and say religion has no inherent quality - good or bad,its very naive,presumptous,and stupid.

You haven't read the Koran and yet you presume to tell those of us who have bothered to read the thing how it should be viewed and interpreted? I would argue that that's pretty presumtuous.

There are indeed female imams. I would ask though, how any female Catholic priests there are? Shouldn't take you long to figure that one out.

Y

es i have he was a pakistani muslim from britain and tried desperately to
convert me but to no avail.

About once a month I have Christians come to my door seeking to convert me to their particular creed. I'd be deluded indeed were I to equate all Christians with those few individuals.


Listen, I'm gonna stop arguing with you because you have yet to resond to any of my points. You've adopted an incredibly ignorant position on a complex issue, and sadly show no inclination at all to honestly consider alternative views. To live in such ignorance and prejudice is your perogative of course, but it gets a bit tiring trying to counter the pronunciations of a closed mind.

I will though, leave you with these few brief questions. I'd hope that you'd respond to them, because they are pertinent to the debate. If you do, i'll happily re-engage. If you don't, I'll know you have no answer but but prefer the safety of ignorance to challenging your beliefs.

1. You state that Islam is psychotically anti-women. Yet quite a number of Islamic nations have more MPs than Ireland, and several have more than the likes of the UK and France. Furthermore, an Irish woman could avail of an abortion in Turkey; were she to get one in Ireland, she'd be prosecuted.

How can you explain this away?

2. You state that the issue of honour killings proves that Islam as a whole is barbarism. Yet there are approx 12 a year in the UK, out of a population of almost 3 million Muslims. How can 12 killings a year be used to tar 3 million people? Furthermore, there are honour killings in other cultures and societies, particularly in Hindu communities in India. Does this mean that all Hindus are barbarous and medieval?

3. You claim that Ayaan Ali Hirsi is an objective source on islam simply because she was once Muslim. Does this make Christopher Hitchens an objective source on Christianity. Does this make the American Christians who converted to Islam and embraced terrorism objective commentators on Christianity or America?

4. There are 1 billion Muslims in the world. At most, thousands have attened these protests. How can such a tiny minority be used to condemn every single other Muslim.

5. You state there are violent passages in the Koran. There are. However, the Hold Books of Christianity and Judaism are far more violent. They speak of genocide, of rape, of infanticide. They are vicious, hate-filled screeds that make the Koran look soft and gentle in comparison. Yet you never claim that Christians or Jews are all barbarous and cruel because of their holy books, nor have you condemned the Bible or the Torah. Why the double standard?

I'd ask you to please respond to these points. I don't think it's too much to ask in a discussion forum that people address the arguments that are made. i've done it with your points. So far you've not reciprocated. If you don't this time, I'll assume you're not interested in discussion and I'll ignore you as a time waster, and I'd advise others to adopt a similar approach.

Nodin

christmas2012 wrote: »

.............Maybe its because they have no TVs or jobs i cant exactly put my finger on it,but a guess would be to do with their religion,as its all some of them have in their own country to get by..

A comment thats beneath contempt.

christmas2012 wrote: »

I was reading in my book by ayaan (........) you can be beheaded..

So do black muslims go round hating themselves, or is there perhaps a set of circumstances and conditions that you haven't considered?

hatrickpatrick

TBH I don't think this is about offense. That's an easy excuse to vent rage and frustration at the West. A lot of the people involved in these riots were probably just waiting for something to spark a fire.