US Ambassador to Libya killed by mob

Brussels Sprout

RTE are reporting that the US ambassador to Libya was amongst four people who were killed last night by a rampaging mob in Benghazi. The mob were protesting a movie shown in America depicting the prophet Muhammad.

I wonder how many of these people would be alive now if it wasn’t for NATO intervention last year after it looked like Gaddafi was going to turn the tide on the rebels and take back this very city.

The Taliban beheading people for dancing at a party. The Pakistanis wanting to lynch a reportedly disabled child for tearing pages of the Koran. Enough is enough. When is Islam going to emerge from Medieval times?

CptMackey

I don't think it will ever emerge from those times. It's seems to me that some Muslims use any excuse of "offence" to go mad a kill and butcher those around them.

I often wonder if the west is better off leaving these dictators in power who don't preach militant Islam. All the arab sping seems to have done is bring forth more Militant Islamic groups who preach murder and keep women down.

Manach

Whilst a terrible incident, this should be linked to the societal conditions on the ground in Libya and not solely due to the Muslim faith where in more developed countries (Jordon, Indonesia, Malaysia) it is part of the normal stable fabric of society.

drdeadlift

I dont believe half the stuff America report in Muslim countries.They seem to depict an image of the average muslim as a phyco yet they are pillaging the mid east.

Jonny7

Embassy in Cairo was attacked also. Film is very obscure - I believe it somehow involves the infamous pastor in the US who threatened to burn the Koran before but backed down.

Jonny7

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

The Taliban beheading people for dancing at a party. The Pakistanis wanting to lynch a reportedly disabled child for tearing pages of the Koran. Enough is enough. When is Islam going to emerge from Medieval times?

There are differing reports on the Taliban incident, some say they were informants, not excusing the Taliban though whom regularily enlist children as suicide bombers.

An Imam has been arrested for planting burnt pages on the child, the family are still receiving death threats - in fairness, that part of the world is very backward, with or without Islam.

The question isn't so much about Islam emerging from the dark ages, more to do with the people in those regions and areas of the world.

the_syco

Jonny7 wrote: »

in fairness, that part of the world is very backward, with or without Islam.

Considering how the catholic church held back Ireland until not so long ago, I think we can say that Islam had a hand in preventing some countries from going forward?

opinionated3

drdeadlift wrote: »

I dont believe half the stuff America report in Muslim countries.They seem to depict an image of the average muslim as a phyco yet they are pillaging the mid east.

It doesn't need American or western media to portray them as psychos....they do a good enough job of that themselves. Idiots.

wes

Certainly a terrible thing happened in Libya, but the fact is that the government is still trying to pull things together, and that they need to create new security forces, police etc, which will take some time.

So in a vacuum like this, extremists will try to assert themselves using violence, as they don't care for elections, as they tend not to get elected due to there extreme views. IMHO, these kind of violent acts, show how desperate the extremists are, as they can't achieve anything by via the ballot box or other non-violent means.

So, it will take time for Libya to sort things out, and I think it silly to expect a fully functioning democracy so soon.

Anyway, an interesting article by Juan Cole regarding this:
Romney Poses, as Militants Burn Benghazi Consulate, killing One, & Demonstrate in Cairo, over Islamophobic Film

The Corinthian

drdeadlift wrote: »

I dont believe half the stuff America report in Muslim countries.They seem to depict an image of the average muslim as a phyco yet they are pillaging the mid east.

So that a mob attacked a diplomatic mission and killed the ambassador is a fabrication?

Not all Arab countries are the same naturally; some, like Tunisia, are far more secular and developed than others. However, as the increased influence of religious fundamentalism seems to be filling the void of the regimes that have been toppled, increasingly I am beginning to view Western support for the Arab Spring to be akin to Turkeys voting for Christmas.

dlofnep

No excuse for this nonsense. I don't care how offended you are about criticism or attacks on your 'prophet'. That does not give you the right to kill innocent people. Thoughts with the families of ill who were pointlessly murdered.

jmayo

CptMackey wrote: »

...
I often wonder if the west is better off leaving these dictators in power who don't preach militant Islam. All the arab sping seems to have done is bring forth more Militant Islamic groups who preach murder and keep women down.

Two instances brought me to that conclusion long ago.

The first was watching a program about Egypt where on the one hand you had a nice western educated free thinking young girl and on the other a beardy young fellow who was running for election for the muslim brotherhood.
They had an election poster which showed pictures of the other candidates.
As far as I can recall they all had beards, but there was one very noticable blank space.
This was for the one female candidate.
The young guy explained that some imans reckoned it was wrong to show the image of a woman.
And this was the party (or its offshoot the Freedom and Justice Party) that affectively won the elections.

BTW AFAIK that organisations belief are...
God is our objective; the Quran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader; Jihad is our way; and death for the sake of God is the highest of our aspirations.


The second incident that made me wonder was Gaddiffi better left in charge was the destruction of a WWII graveyard by some of those so called freedom fighters .
These "freedom fighters" decided to destroy the gravestones since they showed crosses and they went at the one showing a star of David with great relish.

So much for fighting for freedom.
Some of these numpties are fighting for the exact opposite.

Manach wrote: »

Whilst a terrible incident, this should be linked to the societal conditions on the ground in Libya and not solely due to the Muslim faith where in more developed countries (Jordon, Indonesia, Malaysia) it is part of the normal stable fabric of society.

Excuses excuses.
For your Jordan, Indonesia and Malaysia I give you Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen, Iran, etc.
Feck it I can't name them all which have shown huge amounts of intolerance all based on religious ideas.

Suff

People are quick to jump and accuse the faith, these actions cannot be blamed on Islam. For years, and years Islam gets the blame for political extremists and psychos. We can easily apply the same principle to the likes of Hitler (Catholic), Stalin (Atheist), Bush (Methodist) and King Leopold II of Belgium (Catholic) just to name a few ... If so, then we can generalise that Christianity, Atheism are to blame for these men's actions.

Regardless of their religion, people commit atrocities while hiding behind their faith - using it as a justification tool.

My advice for the few who applied the words 'backward' 'held back from moving forward' I recommend you read a book or two on islamic contribution to western civilisation.

Wiki link, 1 2 3

The problem is ignorance, it's not Islam.

Einhard

Hmmmm, a few dozen Muslims, at most, storm an embassy and kill diplomats, and this is indicative of the entire Muslim population. According to official reports, dozens of Catholic clergy in Ireland conspired well into the last decade to cover up child abuse, and move paedophiles rather than report them. When will Irish Catholics shed their medieval barbarism?

I mean...this is the ridiculous generalisation thread isn't it?

Border-Rat

Mike Rivero said it best;

The US invaded Libya, wrecked the country, looted the gold that was going to support the Gold Dinar, killed Qaddafi, imposed a puppet regime and a private central bank on the people of Libya, but really, this was all a fuss over a movie. Really. Honest. No fooling!

SocSocPol

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

RTE are reporting that the US ambassador to Libya was amongst four people who were killed last night by a rampaging mob in Benghazi. The mob were protesting a movie shown in America depicting the prophet Muhammad.

I wonder how many of these people would be alive now if it wasn’t for NATO intervention last year after it looked like Gaddafi was going to turn the tide on the rebels and take back this very city.

The Taliban beheading people for dancing at a party. The Pakistanis wanting to lynch a reportedly disabled child for tearing pages of the Koran. Enough is enough. When is Islam going to emerge from Medieval times?

One has to ask if this statement is not a dangerous generalization. Islam is the biggest religion in the world, it has many diverse sects within it, to allow a post which portrays it as medievil and backward is highly insulting.

SeanW

Suff wrote: »

People are quick to jump and accuse the faith, these actions cannot be blamed on Islam. For years, and years Islam gets the blame for political extremists and psychos. We can easily apply the same principle to the likes of Hitler (Catholic)

I realise I may risk invoking Godwin's law here, but I blame the Catholic church for the Nazi genocide. Not only were Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler both raised as Catholics, but the Catholic Church had spent the previous thousand years demonising Jews as hated Christ killers, so much so that Anti Semitism was, and is still ingrained in the European psyche. European history pre WWII is littered with pogroms and expropriations targeting Jews, of which the Nazi death camps were, to my mind, just a natural conclusion.

They toned down the anti-Semitism a bit after WWII, but its mark is indellible, I remember being "taught" by my Catholic 3rd class teacher in our holy Catholic school system that "everbody hates Jews."

The Catholic Church also was a glorified child rape gang from the 1940s to the 1990s in Ireland and the U.S. and their position on contraception has helped turn the AIDS virus from a mere concern into an African pandemic. They're also rabidly homophobic, in line with other Abrahamic religions.

So yes, as far as I am concerned, the Catholic Church is just behind Wahabbist Islam or Scientology in being as close to pure evil as it is possible for any human ideology to be.

Einhard

Border-Rat wrote: »

Mike Rivero said it best;

Mike Rivero is an idiot then.

Border-Rat

Einhard wrote: »

Mike Rivero is an idiot then.

So the ousting of Gadaffi had nothing to do with his intention to establish a gold-backed Dinar. It was all just due to NATO's love of freedom and puppies and the disappearance of said gold just a coincidence. And he is the idiot?

Right.

peace2804

Any act like this one, regardless of who committed it or where it happened, should not be tolerated however, there is no need to put the blame on the entire Muslim community.

I believe (in fact I know) that Islam doesn't allow such atrocities, nor does any religion, but the fact is there are insane and crazy people in the world (everywhere), a dozen of crazy people certainly don't represent the entire Muslim community in the world.

I also want to say that anybody has the right to protest if they don't like to see their prophet in a movie and so on......but peacefully, protests should be accepted as soon as they are simply a way to express an opinion.

cyberhog

Gaddafi kept a lid on the crazies, NATO set them free.

AlekSmart

Border-Rat wrote: »

So the ousting of Gadaffi had nothing to do with his intention to establish a gold-backed Dinar. It was all just due to NATO's love of freedom and puppies and the disappearance of said gold just a coincidence. And he is the idiot?

Right.

I've always been confident that Gadaffi would eventually be, at least somewhat,more accurately represented as modern Libyan history came to be written.

I did'nt,however,expect that writing process to begin so soon after his execution.

NATO's little Libyan adventure/experiment has'nt ended yet,in fact I believe they'll have to return sooner rather than later,in an attempt to get Gadaffi's Libyan lid back on it's Libyan box.

It's more apparent than ever that the original UN/NATO adventure really did'nt have much forward planning applied to it.

Interestingly,two of the biggest players,S.Berlusconi and M.Sarkozy are now off the world political radar,leaving only HMG's representative's Mr Cameron and Mr Hague to stage the rematch.

Laminations

peace2804 wrote: »

I believe (in fact I know) that Islam doesn't allow such atrocities, nor does any religion, but the fact is there are insane and crazy people in the world (everywhere), a dozen of crazy people certainly don't represent the entire Muslim community in the world..

I agree but also disagree. Islam doesn't allow or doesn't disallow anything. It, like any religion, can only be practised through someone's interpretations and teachings. In Catholicism they have a hierarchical church that interprets for many. Huge criticisms have been levelled at this church, its interpretation and rulings and even lapsed members (with count me out campaigns). In Islam there isn't such a hierarchy, it is far more fractured with Islamic sects, but there are Imams that interpret and teach, mostly males (a sexism Islam shares with Catholicism and other religions). So while there may not be a massive organisation (like the church) to blame there are imams and religious structures in Islam - it IS an organised religion. So there is scripture and then there is dogma. And there are some wholly crooked and evil Imams.

So Islam is not to blame, it only exists in people's interpretations of it. The people interpreting Islam to justify and spread their hate are to blame, and the teaching of Islam is twisted to political agendas in certain countries. Islam (or muslims if you wish as they are the living interpretation of the religion) does have a problem in certain parts of the world and generally in the fractured interpretations that exist. It has the good and evil of any organised religion. Every Muslim is not to blame just as every Libyan is not to blame.

Terrorists will always try and wrap their actions in some convenient flag, let's not fall for it.

Tea drinker

So the attack was obviously planned as RPG are not standard protest gear, so the attackers used the protest... or did they organise it?

Border-Rat wrote: »

So the ousting of Gadaffi had nothing to do with his intention to establish a gold-backed Dinar. It was all just due to NATO's love of freedom and puppies and the disappearance of said gold just a coincidence. And he is the idiot?

Right.

have you got something o back up these claims? I love a conspiracy theory but most seem to think it was about oil/gas deals.

cyberhog wrote: »

Gaddafi kept a lid on the crazies, NATO set them free.

exactly, it's worse now than before, and how many dead , 25K? I'm willing to bet it will be a cesspit for many years before getting back to Gaddaffi era level of dysfunctional function.

Laminations

AlekSmart wrote: »

NATO's little Libyan adventure/experiment has'nt ended yet,in fact I believe they'll have to return sooner rather than later,in an attempt to get Gadaffi's Libyan lid back on it's Libyan box.

An entire nation was liberated from Gadaffis dictatorial rule. It's stretching it to suggest they are all terrorists due to this horrible incident. Don't forget we got our freedom (in the republic at least) and 80 years on we have groups like RIRA blowing up places like Omagh. Should the lid be put back on our box??

Eggy Baby!

The second incident that made me wonder was Gaddiffi better left in charge was the destruction of a WWII graveyard by some of those so called freedom fighters .
These "freedom fighters" decided to destroy the gravestones since they showed crosses and they went at the one showing a star of David with great relish.

Not to mention the defacing of Ba'hai graveyards by Iranian government thugs..

Denerick

Border-Rat wrote: »

So the ousting of Gadaffi had nothing to do with his intention to establish a gold-backed Dinar. It was all just due to NATO's love of freedom and puppies and the disappearance of said gold just a coincidence. And he is the idiot?

Right.

I think you may have got lost on the way to conspiracy theory forum.

NATO intervened in Libya because Gafaffi was a loose cannon and it was official US policy for years to get rid of him, before the brief reapproachement in the noughties. They saw an opportunity to get rid of this madman, and their time was limited as Gadaffi was gaining ground on the rebels and preparing to over-run Benghazi. Of course there was business and strategic opportunities too - that oil was always going to be in safer hands in a nominally democratic and stable state. But your conspiracy about the gold backed dinar is just kooky, sorry. Not saying that isn't/wasn't was going to happen, but its an historical red herring and largely irrelevant to what actually happened.

JustinDee

cyberhog wrote: »

Gaddafi kept a lid on the crazies, NATO set them free.

A classic Pilgerism. Subjective opinion in extremis.
Make up your flipping minds. Is it noble to support or remove a dictator? Which dictators are the alleged good souls? Which are not?
"Sanction them . . . think of the children, don't sanction them . . . don't invade though . . . hey, there's a dictator killing his own etc blah blah . . ."

As conveniently tilted as the governments you post on (well, one in particular that you keep banging on about).

wes

Look like the reason for the attack may have been entirely different:

US probes deadly attack '9/11 link'

Looks like the attack in Libya might not have had nothing to do with the film, or as I have read suggested elsewhere, that they protest was used as cover for the attack.

I am sure we will know more, once investigations have had more time.

the_syco

SocSocPol wrote: »

to allow a post which portrays it as medievil and backward is highly insulting.

Free speech is good until it affects ye, is it? Or should we just ban all things that insult Mo Islamic stuff?

I'm sure the US shall find justice if it wants to...

Morpheus

This is crazy stuff...

think about this,

it has set a precedent, has nobody here considered the following implications?

it means that effectively right now someone could draw a picture that is insulting to one religion and post it on boards.ie or any other irish site and it probably most likely cause a diplomatic incident in some of the Irish embassys in these crazy states, possibly resulting in irish deaths and in terrorist groups targeting irish citizens from here on....