Gone beyond a joke (Mod post #44)

peter kern

amphkingwest wrote: »

Peter fair dues to you if you start educating your athletes as to the rules of the sport.

To be honest we are all supposed to be adults and should be well capable of understanding the rules of our sport. If you play soccer / GAA / tennis / tiddlywinks there are rules. If you breach the rules you get penalised, send off, banned.

The same should apply to triathlon.

As a competitor you should be able to direct a bike marshal to suspected pelotons & register your annoyance without risking 'abuse of marshal'.

You should also be able to tell people to GTFO and not be acused of abusing other racers.

Road side marshals (volunteers at junctions) should not have the power to judge on dafting. It only takes one or two motorbikes to rip up and down the course radioing draftee numbers to the penalty box.

Rules are rules. Apply them properly, penalise breaches properly and let people learn the hard way.

BTW I don't agree with the 'softly, softly' excuse for maintaining race numbers. I've more respect for people like the 'TI enforcer' and prefer racing races where he is referee because I know messing will not be tolerated.

Great start a petition where people can sign up if they are not happy with the current level of drafting have it in all amphipen stores ,bikes store etc send it to all club secretaries and ask them to make its members aware of it. Then send the list to the Governing body and race sponsors , the bigger the list the higher the pressure to change something.

I cant remember having ever seen a proper demonstration in Ireland
outside the pub and love to see it ;-)

hootini

Bambaata wrote: »

Its frustrating alright. I had 1 guy latch onto me for a few seconds but I copped it, turned to him, told him to fcuk off and put in a little dig to get away. Im trying to remember what tri-suit he was wearing as id have no problem naming. And in the end im pretty sure he passed me a few k later.

I paced a 2:40 time on the bike this year EXACTLY as I intended (all under my own steam I may add). When I saw any of these cheating b&stard culprits I'd stealthily come up along side them and let a roar and say "No f*cking drafting!!".

What really astonished me was what happened after the race.

I was essentially laughed at by some fellow members when I told them that I was roaring at these sh1theads drafting , they seemed to think it was acceptable and why did I even bother!?

Personally I detest the drafting b&stards, I just dont get the logic behind it???

peter kern

hootini I would think it s a very similar logic than using drugs in cycling the authorities, turned their head away when the systematic drug taking started and then it became normal, as it is normal in many countries to just throw the rubbish out of the car while driving. it becomes a habit and is then acceptable.
The likes of Ulrich, Armstrong really believe they cheated nobody as the majority did it.

At least in Itu elite racing Itu did something about it - we can argue if it was the best decision but it was a decision- before the image of triathlon was ruined like cycling is those day .

Unregistered.

pgibbo wrote: »

After reading the reports that BMC and LCD posted recently

Has anybody got a link to these?

MrCreosote

My solution for drafting would be to put a few "undercover" busters in the cycle leg.

Motorbike does the front of the field. A few cyclists in their tri gear start at the front and gradually drift back through the field, pinging people as they go. No need for fancy equipment.

No stop/go or time penalties- essentially DQed for drafting with the results published separately.

pgibbo

Unregistered. wrote: »

Has anybody got a link to these?

BMC and LCD

pgibbo

I have a question about a scenario that I think happens quite a lot. Your going along say 20 to 30m behind someone. You come to a hill and you close on them and as you go to overtake they drop the hammer but only pull 5m or so ahead. If a marshall passed at that stage you'd be done for drafting.

Are you better off dropping back or just burying yourself to go by them?

Also, how long do you have to be in the draft zone to get pulled on it?

DaveR1

pgibbo wrote: »

BMC and LCD

Reading BMCs complaint....... Not saying this is what happens but maybe it is;

The guy starts 10m behind Bryan, slowly moves up the draft zone for 10seconds, then as the rules state he drops back to 10.1m.... And then starts the whole process again. Technically not drafting, of course it looks like drafting, but by the rules its not. Not saying its right but I'm pretty sure Bryan Keane's defense was similar in Kilkee!!

Therapysucks

On the particularly badly surfaced, windy stretch of the Bo Peep this year a group came together, as it has done the last three years I've raced this, because it was unavoidable. The thing was this is normally the most fun part of the bike because it becomes a real stretch of racing. Everyone pushing to get to the front and get away before the road finally levels out again. This year though, a couple of the lads were sitting up and looking around, with nobody attacking. I put a dig in and got past the crowd.

Couple of k later the same lads come steaming by in a train. The boys had been sitting up and waiting for their mates to join them from behind before hitting it in a totally organised fashion afterwards. I tried to keep them in my sights for as long as possible, off the back, but felt it was too much work to maintain their group's pace (as I was doing it under my own steam) and eventually fell off, so my rubbish-anyway run wouldn't be destroyed. From reports I heard at the finish line no group came through together so they must have split a short while from there. F*$k that I thought, and reported the whole incident, along with a team mate who had also been a victim of the plan.

Not a thing done. Wasn't a single drafting penalty at the end of the race, and this must have been planned from before the start. It made me sick.

Also, quick referral to West Cork Tri Club members on the first page of this post acting like a time trial team in Schull. I'm a member of that club and can guarantee that would not have been deliberate. We're too small and of varying (rubbish to only a little bit better) talents to plot such a thing, but we're intensely competitive with each other more than we are to anyone else. I'd say those boys were racing and doing their best to blow each other off their wheels. However to any half decent cyclist who pulled in behind them, it might have seemed like a cruise pace. And, as the original poster said, they separated on the next climb which would have been typical. As a Dub in West Cork, if I tried to draft any of the boys in a race, I'd find meself in a ditch quick smart!:)

MrCreosote

DaveR1 wrote: »

The guy starts 10m behind Bryan, slowly moves up the draft zone for 10seconds, then as the rules state he drops back to 10.1m.... And then starts the whole process again. Technically not drafting, of course it looks like drafting, but by the rules its not. Not saying its right but I'm pretty sure Bryan Keane's defense was similar in Kilkee!!

You're only allowed in the draft zone if you pass through it, i.e. overtake. If you don't you're technically drafting. You'd be unlucky to be penalised for it once off, but repeatedly...it's cheating.

shotgunmcos

DaveR1 wrote: »

pgibbo wrote: »

BMC and LCD

Reading BMCs complaint....... Not saying this is what happens but maybe it is;

The guy starts 10m behind Bryan, slowly moves up the draft zone for 10seconds, then as the rules state he drops back to 10.1m.... And then starts the whole process again. Technically not drafting, of course it looks like drafting, but by the rules its not. Not saying its right but I'm pretty sure Bryan Keane's defense was similar in Kilkee!!

To be honest if you are a strong enough biker to sit 9.99m - 10.01m behind BMC for the guts of an hour+ you should not have to just sit there. His point was that when the guy did overtake the pace and effort dropped significantly. What you described Dave is drafting pure and simple. You have 15 seconds to overtake not a series of 14 second drafting segments!!

IronmanJNR

DaveR1 wrote: »

Reading BMCs complaint....... Not saying this is what happens but maybe it is;

The guy starts 10m behind Bryan, slowly moves up the draft zone for 10seconds, then as the rules state he drops back to 10.1m.... And then starts the whole process again. Technically not drafting, of course it looks like drafting, but by the rules its not. Not saying its right but I'm pretty sure Bryan Keane's defense was similar in Kilkee!!

Trust me the guy was sucking BMC's wheel .. I seen it with my own eyes .. No if's , but's or maybe's the guy was cheating

<snip>(GBR) = cheat !!!

shotgunmcos

All point a finger sure but no accusations. No penalty was given so its speculation. Please do not derail to personal comments. I won't say this again.

IronmanJNR

shotgunmcos wrote: »

All point a finger sure but no accusations. No penalty was given so its speculation. Please do not derail to personal comments. I won't say this again.

SIR YES SIR

MrCreosote

So has anyone here ever been <cough> done for drafting?!

I'm so far back after the swim it's never a problem!

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Being careful not to make accusations or names etc, but surely if what BMC is saying is true then that has an impact on our very own Fazz not getting on the podium.
Probably nothing that can be done at this stage but i would be majorly pissed off missing a podium or even a WC slot if i knew one of the guys was cheating up ahead.

HardyEustace

Therapysucks wrote: »

Also, quick referral to West Cork Tri Club members on the first page of this post acting like a time trial team in Schull. I'm a member of that club and can guarantee that would not have been deliberate. We're too small and of varying (rubbish to only a little bit better) talents to plot such a thing, but we're intensely competitive with each other more than we are to anyone else. I'd say those boys were racing and doing their best to blow each other off their wheels. However to any half decent cyclist who pulled in behind them, it might have seemed like a cruise pace. And, as the original poster said, they separated on the next climb which would have been typical. As a Dub in West Cork, if I tried to draft any of the boys in a race, I'd find meself in a ditch quick smart!:)

Sorry but I raced Schull this year and I have NEVER EVER seen anything like the blatant drafting there. The original poster was right, there were trains of bikes all over the bike course. They knew sodding well what they were doing as when the marshalling van drove up (to tell someone their number was missing ) the trains mysteriously melted away.

Definitely the worst race for drafting I have ever been in.

IronmanJNR

Romina Curved Fluff wrote: »

Being careful not to make accusations or names etc, but surely if what BMC is saying is true then that has an impact on our very own Fazz not getting on the podium.
Probably nothing that can be done at this stage but i would be majorly pissed off missing a podium or even a WC slot if i knew one of the guys was cheating up ahead.

How do you work that one out , Action cant be taken now anyway , but even if action could be taken it wouldnt effect Fazz !!

Seres

was at a tri at the weekend and a mate was taking photos on the road side during the bike stage , he said some of the top guys were blatantly drafting , he said they even had the gall to be calling out instructions to one another !!

BennyMul

this happened to me in Athy, a pleb sat on my wheel for a lot of the race occasionally came past and the pace went way down. to be honest I was sh1tting myself for drafting when he went past and sat up. let the gap open and at time found myself freewheeling and had to go past him. (2nd race and was convinced the marshals would be patrolling for this type of thing.)

I was honestly shocked at how blatant it was groups of riders together and motorbikes with marshals passing them and nothing said,

sconhome

Seres wrote: »

was at a tri at the weekend and a mate was taking photos on the road side during the bike stage , he said some of the top guys were blatantly drafting , he said they even had the gall to be calling out instructions to one another !!

A lot of the top guys on the long courses will work together in the pace line fashion that Tunney explained earlier, taking turns at the front.

I'm guesstimating at 40+ k/hr the draft tunnel extends further than 10m behind the lead rider and the benefit is more prevalent compared to age groupers at 30ish m/hr.

They are strictly riding within the rules yet still working together to share the effort.

sconhome

pgibbo wrote: »

I have a question about a scenario that I think happens quite a lot. Your going along say 20 to 30m behind someone. You come to a hill and you close on them and as you go to overtake they drop the hammer but only pull 5m or so ahead.

I'd sit up and drop back for the couple of seconds. No point turning on the afterburners to go past them, they're going to blowup before the top of the drag and you'll ride on past over the top. (going nah, nah, na na nah!! )

delboyfagan

I find that the build up of anger that you get, thinking about whether u should tell them to f''k off or not or shout at them, just wastes energy.

tunney

Skipped most of this as wanting to avoid a tunney-kerns argument taking over the entire thread.

One option to deal with drafters is to do what JB did in Roth. Literally sh1t on the drafters.

(I've been known to relieve myself when being drafting, got splashed when on my wheel??? well that wasn't water )

Back to unfollowing.

peter kern

amphkingwest wrote: »

I'd sit up and drop back for the couple of seconds. No point turning on the afterburners to go past them, they're going to blowup before the top of the drag and you'll ride on past over the top. (going nah, nah, na na nah!! )

technically speaking you are drafting if you where in the draft corridor. you have to pass.

An athlete may enter the draft zone of another athlete, but must be seen
to be progressing through that zone. A maximum of 20 seconds will be
allowed to pass through the zone of another athlete.

• If the athlete enters the draft zone, and progresses through it within 20
seconds in the overtaking manoeuvre;
• For safety reasons;
• 100 metres before and after an aid station or transition area;
• At an acute turn;
• If the Technical Delegate excludes a section of the course because of
narrow lanes, construction, detours, or for other safety reasons.

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

technically speaking you are drafting if you where in the draft corridor. you have to pass.

I disagree. You don't have to pass. If you attempt the overtaking and
a) don't have the legs to complete the passing manoever
or
b) the person being overtaken surges are you going to conserve your effort, which I would do, you can drop back out of the draft zone.

In fact, I would argue that this person has made a blocking movement in an attempt to prevent you overtaking them.

The big gaping hole in the rules which everyone misses is that an athlete is passed when another athlete's front wheel is ahead of theirs;
• Once overtaken, an athlete must move out of the draft zone of the leading athlete within 5 seconds.

peter kern

can you show me your a an b point in the rule book where is says you dodnt have to pass when in the drafting zone.

according to the Itu rule book you are in a zone you should not be in.

if you are in the draft zone technically speaking you have to pass until you passed the front wheel, than the other guy has to drop back if you havent passed you are the blocker ( you are in the middle of the road not passing) . and their could well be an ahtlete behind you that has the power to go passed you and you are holding him up.

in the Itu book in a blocking insatance the guy in the middle of the road gets the penality.

Anyway no point arguing this as this is more a fine print and only a very small part of the problem. but you cant complain if a referee gives you a drafting penalty.

I would not ding you and a good draft marshall I would suggest would try to see if there was intention to draft or not . ( bit like in soocer if touching the ball with a hand wat itnetionally or not)

Ps iam not a draft marshall and could well be wrong.

amphkingwest wrote: »

I disagree. You don't have to pass. If you attempt the overtaking and
a) don't have the legs to complete the passing manoever
or
b) the person being overtaken surges are you going to conserve your effort, which I would do, you can drop back out of the draft zone.

In fact, I would argue that this person has made a blocking movement in an attempt to prevent you overtaking them.

The big gaping hole in the rules which everyone misses is that an athlete is passed when another athlete's front wheel is ahead of theirs;
• Once overtaken, an athlete must move out of the draft zone of the leading athlete within 5 seconds.

bryangiggsy

Romina Curved Fluff wrote: »

Being careful not to make accusations or names etc, but surely if what BMC is saying is true then that has an impact on our very own Fazz not getting on the podium.
Probably nothing that can be done at this stage but i would be majorly pissed off missing a podium or even a WC slot if i knew one of the guys was cheating up ahead.

I think the top age grouper came 5th overall.


Just reading quickly through the thread and one thing occured to me.
All this drafting started a couple of years ago when there was a mobile add (i think for 3 mobile) on rte of a triathlon race with a guy in a red jersey who had a peleton behind him...eh peter

Unregistered.

pgibbo wrote: »

... Your going along say 20 to 30m behind someone. You come to a hill and you close on them and as you go to overtake they drop the hammer but only pull 5m or so ahead. If a marshall passed at that stage you'd be done for drafting.

Are you better off dropping back or just burying yourself to go by them?

Keeping 3 meters to one side? I think, where possible, the guy in front should facilitate the 3-meter draft zone by not taking a centre-of-road position if he can.

peter kern

Unregistered. wrote: »

Keeping 3 meters to one side? I think, where possible, the guy in front should facilitate the 3-meter draft zone by not taking a centre-of-road position if he can.

go to ti website and have a look at the picture in the rule book
unless its on very very wide road while its then not drafting its blocking .