Gone beyond a joke (Mod post #44)

pgibbo

DRafting that is......I know it has been discussed many times and is a major sense of frustration for a lot of people.

After reading the reports that BMC and LCD posted recently, surely TI are going to have do something about drafting at races. I can't believe that it's happening so much at the pointy end of races. Surely it's time for this to be cracked down on in a serious way????

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

pgibbo wrote: »

DRafting that is......I know it has been discussed many times and is a major sense of frustration for a lot of people.

After reading the reports that BMC and LCD posted recently, surely TI are going to have do something about drafting at races. I can't believe that it's happening so much at the pointy end of races. Surely it's time for this to be cracked down on in a serious way????

Funny story from Lost Sheep this year. I was talking to my cousin who was working down there at the weekend and he was caught in the car at one of the bike passings (bikes going both directions) He seen a big lad in black with 2 or 3 behind him drafting and the guy on front was turning around going nuts at those drafting him.
It is a joke though, you are only cheating yourself. If you are not going to race legally and within the rules whats the point.

Izoard

It is also a big problem in the mid-pack. The drafting in Galway was ridiculous -and given it was an MDot, they should have had the resources to enforce it.

It struck me that most of the drafters I saw in Galway, were of the opinion that it doesn't really apply to them - it is only an issue at the sharp end.

catweazle

As mentioned previously to Gibbo, I wonder if those comments will remain on BMC's blog for long. Fair play to him for having the balls to more or less name him as he knew it would cause controversy.

But the fact is as far as I know the person wasn't done for drafting so its down to his word against mine territory.

Its effectively accusing him of cheating, golf has trodden this minefield for years now with legal ramifications and I am guessing its going to be triathlons turn soon.

But absolutely its a dangerous area, marshalling at Loughrea last week I would hate to be told I would have to make a judgement call on whether someone was drafting or not

interested

If you get caught doing it straight red (and if you loose your appeal) AND loose entry to next NS race you've entered. Simples. Its the same people year in year out. Typically I see groups forming as they go by me after the swim

peter kern

money talks ..... draft marshalls cost money and its not a thanksfull job.

at the same time if we also shout at draftees and dont let them draft...
we always look for somebody else to do something, but ourselfs.

There is some pesky ones but often, if you stay besiede the road in a race and remind them its not a drafting race , a lot drop back. in the heat of the race we all make mistakes.

KentuckyPete

It's a real challenge to police it once you admit that there's no honesty code. Irish Tris are on country roads that are not closed so the passing room is very tight - the road is often twisty too. Plus, the lad in front is supposed to drop off the pace and let the other lad come through - when you're racing this goes against every fibre of your being - you just won't slow down. The passer can have a real challenge getting around and past you. Once he gets past he can't stay wide of you as the road is so narrow so you end up right behind him getting a free spin.

Drafting is fierce frustrating - it really pisses you off to be battling a headwind on your tod and then to see a train passing you out or coming in the opposite direction. I was doing Schull tri this year and two trains of TT bikes went past me. Next thing three lads from West Cork Tri club go by like something out of a team TT - all in the same strip an' all - right up each other's asses. "Screw this" sez I and just jumped on to the back wheel of the third lad. There was clearly no attempt to marshall it. The train came apart fairly quickly on the next decent climb but I could see how much easier it was to be tucked in.

Everyone is ignoring it - race officials because it's so difficult to police. For example how could Cork Tri police 85km of mountain roads for the Lost Sheep? Surely there's going to be trouble soon. I reckon race organisers should quietly figure out the stretch of their course most likely to produce drafting, police that intensely and nail four or five lads in the top/middle of the field. As this practice would spread you'd get an awareness building up and it wouldn't be so blatant. First step is TI need admit it's a problem and then start to get the race referees onto it.

sconhome

Theres no excuse.

Everyone signs up in registration saying they have read and understand the rules. If you're blatantly drafting you're disqualified.

Heat of the moment is noe excuse either. If you 'forget' the rules it means you are not paying attention and putting others at risk on the course.

If you want to draft join a cycling club.

Bambaata

Its frustrating alright. I had 1 guy latch onto me for a few seconds but I copped it, turned to him, told him to fcuk off and put in a little dig to get away. Im trying to remember what tri-suit he was wearing as id have no problem naming. And in the end im pretty sure he passed me a few k later.

SucCes09

I do think there is some confusion (not excusing it!) when watching the ITU or similiar events, that are draft legal.
I do think a stronger stance needs to be taken by TI, and have drafters expelled from racing there and then.
could they have draft spotters on courses every 5 km or so? is that practical?

IronmanJNR

People sometimes forget , Running triathlons has now become big business for the Tri Clubs with a hell of a lot of money to be made when there’s a medium to large field .

Rule 101 of business is keep the costs/outgoings low or to a minimum .. and i would think draft marshals would be bottom of this list.

And its for this very reason Drafting will never be overcome in our sport .. and lets be honest about it TI dont give a Sh1t, so no point looking to them.

Personally i get really annoyed at these packs working together , In Galway for example I seen more drafting than any other race in the country .. it was crazy , and sweet FA done about

The way to combat this : IT CANT BE .. its that Simple .

Its up to all of us if we feel that leech sucking your back wheel just to turn around and say ... F@#K OFF !! and possibly throw an opened gel at them

d4r3n

I think a lot of people know and don't care, I passed a few little groups in a triathlon a while back and as I went by asked "Are you all taking turns or what? " to be just greeted with a smile in return as if they know but simply don't care, I wasn't too bothered as they were only cheating themselves but makes a lot of results at races not so comparable when you've people doing that.

miller82

some pr11ck was drafting behind me in Galway, eventually i let him get close enough and i headed for a pot hole, pulling out at the last second and he smashed it. after the second one and an extra push on the hill, he was gone. i saw him on the way back in and he was practically getting a baker off someone.......W4NKER !

peter kern

SucCes09 wrote: »

I do think there is some confusion (not excusing it!) when watching the ITU or similiar events, that are draft legal.
I do think a stronger stance needs to be taken by TI, and have drafters expelled from racing there and then.
could they have draft spotters on courses every 5 km or so? is that practical?

I am sure the commentator at the Olympics that said it was a non draft legal race has a part to play ;-) (thats pink)

IronmanJNR

peter kern wrote: »

I am sure the commentator at the Olympics that said it was a non draft legal race has a part to play ;-) (thats pink)

hahahaha RTE at its best

sconhome

IronmanJNR wrote: »

Its up to all of us if we feel that leech sucking your back wheel just to turn around and say ... F@#K OFF !! and possibly throw an opened gel at them

That'd be ironic, getting DQ'd for littering. Snot rockets over the shoulder work better.

peter kern

IronmanJNR wrote: »

People sometimes forget , Running triathlons has now become big business for the Tri Clubs with a hell of a lot of money to be made when there’s a medium to large field .

Rule 101 of business is keep the costs/outgoings low or to a minimum .. and i would think draft marshals would be bottom of this list.

And its for this very reason Drafting will never be overcome in our sport .. and lets be honest about it TI dont give a Sh1t, so no point looking to them.

Personally i get really annoyed at these packs working together , In Galway for example I seen more drafting than any other race in the country .. it was crazy , and sweet FA done about

The way to combat this : IT CANT BE .. its that Simple .

Its up to all of us if we feel that leech sucking your back wheel just to turn around and say ... F@#K OFF !! and possibly throw an opened gel at them

blunt but there is a lot of truth in this post.

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

DRafting that is......I know it has been discussed many times and is a major sense of frustration for a lot of people.

After reading the reports that BMC and LCD posted recently, surely TI are going to have do something about drafting at races. I can't believe that it's happening so much at the pointy end of races. Surely it's time for this to be cracked down on in a serious way????

One of the reasons Irish races just don't do it for me.

Last two duathlons in the country I did. I came top 8 in one and 4th in another. In both races everyone in front of me road as a pack. In one race (4th) they cut the course too. There was a penalty, an appeal and nothing. In the 8th one they got 1 minute penalty for repeated drafting incidents. 1 minute penalty covered all. Total joke.

Bryan Keane in Kilkee if was drafting he should have been done properly. Giving a 30sec penalty says "its all right to draft, no one really gives a fvck".

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

money talks ..... draft marshalls cost money and its not a thanksfull job.

at the same time if we also shout at draftees and dont let them draft...
we always look for somebody else to do something, but ourselfs.

There is some pesky ones but often, if you stay besiede the road in a race and remind them its not a drafting race , a lot drop back. in the heat of the race we all make mistakes.

Thats b0ll0ck Peter - its about poorly trained refs (I've had this chat) and them not having the nads to DQ and furthermore TI not packing them up when they do DQ people.

Seres

How do you deal with a situation in a race where someone passes you and you decide that you are gonna stay close by cause they are goin at a good pace , is it acceptable to stay say 10/15m behind but to the right so as not to get the advantage of the draft and pass them when you feel they are goin too slow for you ? I mean can you pace off someone without drafting , like in running ?

tunney

Seres wrote: »

How do you deal with a situation in a race where someone passes you and you decide that you are gonna stay close by cause they are goin at a good pace , is it acceptable to stay say 10/15m behind but to the right so as not to get the advantage of the draft and pass them when you feel they are goin too slow for you ? I mean can you pace off someone without drafting , like in running ?

Yes you can pace off some one legally - called a "pace line" - 10.001m back.

Problem in Ireland is refs seem to turn a blind to to everything that isn't < 2cm

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

Thats b0ll0ck Peter - its about poorly trained refs (I've had this chat) and them not having the nads to DQ and furthermore TI not packing them up when they do DQ people.

not that much bo..ock as you think. |Its a fact that in places where people people are told off, by citizens, if they through rubbish on the ground there is less rubbish on the ground ( ie switzerland)

I think the rest IronmanJNR described very well. in his post.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

not that much bo..ock as you think. |Its a fact that in places where people people are told off, by citizens, if they through rubbish on the ground there is less rubbish on the ground ( ie switzerland)

I think the rest IronmanJNR described very well. in his post.

Hands up if you can name at least one club that teaches its members how to draft properly during races.

*HAND UP*

promethius

drafting really bothers me too, pure cheating
to be honest i was real tempted at a race this year to get on someones wheel, then didn't when it was underway and felt better in myself for it. i'm not at the business end of it so it's not worth making a liar out of myself!

i honestly don't think it can ever be policed properly in ireland, there are so many events going on now and loads of small ones being run by smaller inexperienced clubs. it's rampant now, so imo, just get rid of the drafting rule altogether and let people at it. mightn't be fair but it's certainly not fair as it is now.

tunney

promethius wrote: »

drafting really bothers me too, pure cheating
to be honest i was real tempted at a race this year to get on someones wheel, then didn't when it was underway and felt better in myself for it. i'm not at the business end of it so it's not worth making a liar out of myself!

i honestly don't think it can ever be policed properly in ireland, there are so many events going on now and loads of small ones being run by smaller inexperienced clubs. it's rampant now, so imo, just get rid of the drafting rule altogether and let people at it. mightn't be fair but it's certainly not fair as it is now.

Insurance, harder to get for pack events.

promethius

tunney wrote: »

Insurance, harder to get for pack events.

would there be much of a difference in cost once got? just out of interest?

tunney

promethius wrote: »

would there be much of a difference in cost once got? just out of interest?

Dunno.

Plus no Tri bikes, all road with stubby clip ons, no discs, no aero helmets, UCI regs

Plus I'm fvcked if I would ride legally with anyone unless I knew and trusted them, the amount of accidents.............

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

Hands up if you can name at least one club that teaches its members how to draft properly during races.

*HAND UP*

one guy mentioned a tri club being a pursiut team ;-) ;-) (see above)
but you are very right no club does really educate on playing by the rules. great point !!!!!!!

I will start that.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

one guy mentioned a tri club being a pursiut team ;-) ;-) (see above)
but you are very right no club does really educate on playing by the rules. great point !!!!!!!

I will start that.

Lots of people talk about paces lines peter. You are not always ahead of the curve.

Some talk about how to draft illegally and how to best draft illegally.


PS I can see how this thread is going to go. Unfollowing it

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

but you are very right no club does really educate on playing by the rules. great point !!!!!!!

I will start that.

Peter fair dues to you if you start educating your athletes as to the rules of the sport.

To be honest we are all supposed to be adults and should be well capable of understanding the rules of our sport. If you play soccer / GAA / tennis / tiddlywinks there are rules. If you breach the rules you get penalised, send off, banned.

The same should apply to triathlon.

As a competitor you should be able to direct a bike marshal to suspected pelotons & register your annoyance without risking 'abuse of marshal'.

You should also be able to tell people to GTFO and not be acused of abusing other racers.

Road side marshals (volunteers at junctions) should not have the power to judge on dafting. It only takes one or two motorbikes to rip up and down the course radioing draftee numbers to the penalty box.

Rules are rules. Apply them properly, penalise breaches properly and let people learn the hard way.

BTW I don't agree with the 'softly, softly' excuse for maintaining race numbers. I've more respect for people like the 'TI enforcer' and prefer racing races where he is referee because I know messing will not be tolerated.

shotgunmcos

It drives me mad and has even turned me off triathlon to a point. The top guys have zero excuse and Its bizzare to me why they would cheat when the have put so much work in. A lot of it too is ignorance. If you have not practiced riding outside a draft zone then how do you know what 10m is in a race. Ok taking a piggy back aside I think its down to clubs as much as marshals. Having group cycle sessions every weekend as a group and then expect everyone to spread out into a pace line in the spring. Ok dangerous on a lot of roads but surely some bike sessions can teach a group about this. I bike alone or with a mate most of the time. We will warm up for an hour chatting then spend the rest of the session 15m apart. Its great 'legal' drafting practice. On the other side race directors need to give this more weight and have TIs backup with race bans after repeated infringement. But no that may turn the chapters away and that would be less profit when...

peter kern

amphkingwest wrote: »

Peter fair dues to you if you start educating your athletes as to the rules of the sport.

To be honest we are all supposed to be adults and should be well capable of understanding the rules of our sport. If you play soccer / GAA / tennis / tiddlywinks there are rules. If you breach the rules you get penalised, send off, banned.

The same should apply to triathlon.

As a competitor you should be able to direct a bike marshal to suspected pelotons & register your annoyance without risking 'abuse of marshal'.

You should also be able to tell people to GTFO and not be acused of abusing other racers.

Road side marshals (volunteers at junctions) should not have the power to judge on dafting. It only takes one or two motorbikes to rip up and down the course radioing draftee numbers to the penalty box.

Rules are rules. Apply them properly, penalise breaches properly and let people learn the hard way.

BTW I don't agree with the 'softly, softly' excuse for maintaining race numbers. I've more respect for people like the 'TI enforcer' and prefer racing races where he is referee because I know messing will not be tolerated.

Great start a petition where people can sign up if they are not happy with the current level of drafting have it in all amphipen stores ,bikes store etc send it to all club secretaries and ask them to make its members aware of it. Then send the list to the Governing body and race sponsors , the bigger the list the higher the pressure to change something.

I cant remember having ever seen a proper demonstration in Ireland
outside the pub and love to see it ;-)

hootini

Bambaata wrote: »

Its frustrating alright. I had 1 guy latch onto me for a few seconds but I copped it, turned to him, told him to fcuk off and put in a little dig to get away. Im trying to remember what tri-suit he was wearing as id have no problem naming. And in the end im pretty sure he passed me a few k later.

I paced a 2:40 time on the bike this year EXACTLY as I intended (all under my own steam I may add). When I saw any of these cheating b&stard culprits I'd stealthily come up along side them and let a roar and say "No f*cking drafting!!".

What really astonished me was what happened after the race.

I was essentially laughed at by some fellow members when I told them that I was roaring at these sh1theads drafting , they seemed to think it was acceptable and why did I even bother!?

Personally I detest the drafting b&stards, I just dont get the logic behind it???

peter kern

hootini I would think it s a very similar logic than using drugs in cycling the authorities, turned their head away when the systematic drug taking started and then it became normal, as it is normal in many countries to just throw the rubbish out of the car while driving. it becomes a habit and is then acceptable.
The likes of Ulrich, Armstrong really believe they cheated nobody as the majority did it.

At least in Itu elite racing Itu did something about it - we can argue if it was the best decision but it was a decision- before the image of triathlon was ruined like cycling is those day .

Unregistered.

pgibbo wrote: »

After reading the reports that BMC and LCD posted recently

Has anybody got a link to these?

MrCreosote

My solution for drafting would be to put a few "undercover" busters in the cycle leg.

Motorbike does the front of the field. A few cyclists in their tri gear start at the front and gradually drift back through the field, pinging people as they go. No need for fancy equipment.

No stop/go or time penalties- essentially DQed for drafting with the results published separately.

pgibbo

Unregistered. wrote: »

Has anybody got a link to these?

BMC and LCD

pgibbo

I have a question about a scenario that I think happens quite a lot. Your going along say 20 to 30m behind someone. You come to a hill and you close on them and as you go to overtake they drop the hammer but only pull 5m or so ahead. If a marshall passed at that stage you'd be done for drafting.

Are you better off dropping back or just burying yourself to go by them?

Also, how long do you have to be in the draft zone to get pulled on it?

DaveR1

pgibbo wrote: »

BMC and LCD

Reading BMCs complaint....... Not saying this is what happens but maybe it is;

The guy starts 10m behind Bryan, slowly moves up the draft zone for 10seconds, then as the rules state he drops back to 10.1m.... And then starts the whole process again. Technically not drafting, of course it looks like drafting, but by the rules its not. Not saying its right but I'm pretty sure Bryan Keane's defense was similar in Kilkee!!

Therapysucks

On the particularly badly surfaced, windy stretch of the Bo Peep this year a group came together, as it has done the last three years I've raced this, because it was unavoidable. The thing was this is normally the most fun part of the bike because it becomes a real stretch of racing. Everyone pushing to get to the front and get away before the road finally levels out again. This year though, a couple of the lads were sitting up and looking around, with nobody attacking. I put a dig in and got past the crowd.

Couple of k later the same lads come steaming by in a train. The boys had been sitting up and waiting for their mates to join them from behind before hitting it in a totally organised fashion afterwards. I tried to keep them in my sights for as long as possible, off the back, but felt it was too much work to maintain their group's pace (as I was doing it under my own steam) and eventually fell off, so my rubbish-anyway run wouldn't be destroyed. From reports I heard at the finish line no group came through together so they must have split a short while from there. F*$k that I thought, and reported the whole incident, along with a team mate who had also been a victim of the plan.

Not a thing done. Wasn't a single drafting penalty at the end of the race, and this must have been planned from before the start. It made me sick.

Also, quick referral to West Cork Tri Club members on the first page of this post acting like a time trial team in Schull. I'm a member of that club and can guarantee that would not have been deliberate. We're too small and of varying (rubbish to only a little bit better) talents to plot such a thing, but we're intensely competitive with each other more than we are to anyone else. I'd say those boys were racing and doing their best to blow each other off their wheels. However to any half decent cyclist who pulled in behind them, it might have seemed like a cruise pace. And, as the original poster said, they separated on the next climb which would have been typical. As a Dub in West Cork, if I tried to draft any of the boys in a race, I'd find meself in a ditch quick smart!:)

MrCreosote

DaveR1 wrote: »

The guy starts 10m behind Bryan, slowly moves up the draft zone for 10seconds, then as the rules state he drops back to 10.1m.... And then starts the whole process again. Technically not drafting, of course it looks like drafting, but by the rules its not. Not saying its right but I'm pretty sure Bryan Keane's defense was similar in Kilkee!!

You're only allowed in the draft zone if you pass through it, i.e. overtake. If you don't you're technically drafting. You'd be unlucky to be penalised for it once off, but repeatedly...it's cheating.

shotgunmcos

DaveR1 wrote: »

pgibbo wrote: »

BMC and LCD

Reading BMCs complaint....... Not saying this is what happens but maybe it is;

The guy starts 10m behind Bryan, slowly moves up the draft zone for 10seconds, then as the rules state he drops back to 10.1m.... And then starts the whole process again. Technically not drafting, of course it looks like drafting, but by the rules its not. Not saying its right but I'm pretty sure Bryan Keane's defense was similar in Kilkee!!

To be honest if you are a strong enough biker to sit 9.99m - 10.01m behind BMC for the guts of an hour+ you should not have to just sit there. His point was that when the guy did overtake the pace and effort dropped significantly. What you described Dave is drafting pure and simple. You have 15 seconds to overtake not a series of 14 second drafting segments!!

IronmanJNR

DaveR1 wrote: »

Reading BMCs complaint....... Not saying this is what happens but maybe it is;

The guy starts 10m behind Bryan, slowly moves up the draft zone for 10seconds, then as the rules state he drops back to 10.1m.... And then starts the whole process again. Technically not drafting, of course it looks like drafting, but by the rules its not. Not saying its right but I'm pretty sure Bryan Keane's defense was similar in Kilkee!!

Trust me the guy was sucking BMC's wheel .. I seen it with my own eyes .. No if's , but's or maybe's the guy was cheating

<snip>(GBR) = cheat !!!

shotgunmcos

All point a finger sure but no accusations. No penalty was given so its speculation. Please do not derail to personal comments. I won't say this again.

IronmanJNR

shotgunmcos wrote: »

All point a finger sure but no accusations. No penalty was given so its speculation. Please do not derail to personal comments. I won't say this again.

SIR YES SIR

MrCreosote

So has anyone here ever been <cough> done for drafting?!

I'm so far back after the swim it's never a problem!

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Being careful not to make accusations or names etc, but surely if what BMC is saying is true then that has an impact on our very own Fazz not getting on the podium.
Probably nothing that can be done at this stage but i would be majorly pissed off missing a podium or even a WC slot if i knew one of the guys was cheating up ahead.

HardyEustace

Therapysucks wrote: »

Also, quick referral to West Cork Tri Club members on the first page of this post acting like a time trial team in Schull. I'm a member of that club and can guarantee that would not have been deliberate. We're too small and of varying (rubbish to only a little bit better) talents to plot such a thing, but we're intensely competitive with each other more than we are to anyone else. I'd say those boys were racing and doing their best to blow each other off their wheels. However to any half decent cyclist who pulled in behind them, it might have seemed like a cruise pace. And, as the original poster said, they separated on the next climb which would have been typical. As a Dub in West Cork, if I tried to draft any of the boys in a race, I'd find meself in a ditch quick smart!:)

Sorry but I raced Schull this year and I have NEVER EVER seen anything like the blatant drafting there. The original poster was right, there were trains of bikes all over the bike course. They knew sodding well what they were doing as when the marshalling van drove up (to tell someone their number was missing ) the trains mysteriously melted away.

Definitely the worst race for drafting I have ever been in.

IronmanJNR

Romina Curved Fluff wrote: »

Being careful not to make accusations or names etc, but surely if what BMC is saying is true then that has an impact on our very own Fazz not getting on the podium.
Probably nothing that can be done at this stage but i would be majorly pissed off missing a podium or even a WC slot if i knew one of the guys was cheating up ahead.

How do you work that one out , Action cant be taken now anyway , but even if action could be taken it wouldnt effect Fazz !!

Seres

was at a tri at the weekend and a mate was taking photos on the road side during the bike stage , he said some of the top guys were blatantly drafting , he said they even had the gall to be calling out instructions to one another !!

BennyMul

this happened to me in Athy, a pleb sat on my wheel for a lot of the race occasionally came past and the pace went way down. to be honest I was sh1tting myself for drafting when he went past and sat up. let the gap open and at time found myself freewheeling and had to go past him. (2nd race and was convinced the marshals would be patrolling for this type of thing.)

I was honestly shocked at how blatant it was groups of riders together and motorbikes with marshals passing them and nothing said,