Changes to city bus routes

eclectichoney

That's the new Cappavilla route - it doesn't stop at the student centre - only KBS I think but thats only a few mins walk of a difference.

Copper_pipe

Does anyone know if the 302 or the 343 stop near the gaelic grounds

Insect Overlord

Copper_pipe wrote: »

Does anyone know if the 302 or the 343 stop near the gaelic grounds

The 302 does not. There's a stop near LIT though, so if you're familiar with the various avenues around Clareview you'd be able to walk to the Gaelic Grounds in about 5 minutes or so.

I haven't used the 343 yet so I can't give you an answer on that one.

eclectichoney

There is a petition you can sign online - will be send to Bus eireann on friday afaik

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/ulbusroutes/

Champ

Petition signed.

I'm not exactly keeping my hopes up given they're still calling it an "improved" service and seem to think putting a single bus back in the morning (direct Raheen - UL bus) would magically solve all the problems with the wreck that the 304 service is.

Ah well, feels better to give them more feedback on their "improved" service.
Reliability?: :rolleyes:
Increased frequence?:
More coverage?: :pac: (yes more coverage is great since the bloody thing may not even show up and if it does it's probably full to bursting)

billy the squid

The sad reality is people will have to die on a 304 bus before they even review it. it took five schoolgirls to die before they reformed the 3 in a double seat policy on school buses.

Until then Bus Eireann will keep blaming the bus lanes for overcrowding.

Champ

Alright overview time.
Several weeks back to much fanfare BE tried to awe us with a revolutionary, "improved" service. Hopes were raised that BE finally realised just how much improvement that certain aspects of the Limerick bus service required. No one in the public suspected what was about to come was an epic fail of unimaginable scale. Not only did long standing issues such as buses not showing up or a trio of buses turning up at the same time extremely late became much more pronounced but now there's severe (to put it mildly) and dangerous overcrowding to contend with which also has the added effect of people regularly getting left behind in later stops.

So the public started complaining and early BE responses was a defiant insistence that it still is an improved service and that lack of bus lanes is to blame. The weeks go by and eventually BE concede that the 304 isn't exactly working according to plan (to put it mildly) and reinstate a single bus the 7.55 Raheen to UL (nowhere is this mentioned on the BE website or timetables).

Time continues to go by and the complaints continue to pour in from various groups with the petition from UL staff and students been one of the most latest actions to actually make BE do something about this "improved" service.

The reinstatement of the 7.55 Raheen to UL was like tossing a cup of water onto a raging bonfire. The crux of the issue is that combining the UL and Raheen routes should never have been done. Both routes were very busy and even before the "improved" service came into been the UL route was dire due to the Castletroy traffic. The Raheen route was at least reasonably reliable. Net result of combining the two routes is that the UL service is now worse than possibly imagined (hard to think that going a year or two back) and the Raheen service inherited all the problems of the original UL service and then some.

The only way I can see the 304 disaster been resolved is to bring back the 308/308A + old 304/304A (essentially splitting the routes back) and reinstate all early morning direct services from Raheen and Caherdavin to UL (for a start). At least that means students get to their lectures in time and people aren't late for work. It was never ever going to work out well trying to service all the UL commuters with a single one deck bus. They can go on and on about "more frequent service" but that's totally irrelevant if its regularly late / overcrowded / doesn't even turn up. Never mind the health and safety issues of having dangerously overcrowded and full buses.

I think BE are bunkering down and hoping it'll blow over and that commuters will now accept it after the 7.55 Raheen - UL gesture. That said I think they've underestimated the level of discontent and anger. Heck even boards.ie made it into the Limerick Post as a source regarding the backlash on the "improved" services.

I've been to other counties where BE are actually doing a decent job. Is there something about the BE Limerick branch that makes them incapable of operating a half decent bus service???

James McNulty

eclectichoney wrote: »

That's the new Cappavilla route - it doesn't stop at the student centre - only KBS I think but thats only a few mins walk of a difference.

Yeah but when the weather is manky like it is most of the time in Limmers, it can be a long walk from the KBS to anywhere on campus

garv123

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151548811962787&set=a.172649662786.121432.167225367786&type=1&theater

According to the ULSU the petition worked and BE said they would fix the problem and sent out a new timetable which is the same as the old one. They say the 15 minute busses will work but its just going to be the same Sh!te

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151548811962787&set=a.172649662786.121432.167225367786&type=1&theater

Champ

...

So they're going to fix the problem(s) and part of this is a timetable that is the exact same as the existing messed up one?....Am I missing something here?

I can only conclude that they're going to try harder to make this work but I can't see this ending well because they're not planning to directly address the root causes of the catastrophic service (at least not apparently with the current info available) i.e. they should have separated the routes and reinstated all the previous direct UL services from Raheen and Caherdavin. There's no way they're going to fit all the UL commuters on a single bus during peak times like 8:00 / 8:30. People are still going to get left behind and the overcrowding issue will continue unabated (crushed like sardines in a can).

Bah I'm taking this with a pinch of salt (a non tangible assurance from Bus Eireann that they will make this work falls far short of the drastic action required to remedy this "improved" service) and interpreting this as another minimal attempt after the reinstatement of the direct 7.55 Raheen - UL bus to lessen the very verbose public backlash and to bunker down in the meantime hoping it'll blow over. I expect we might see a minimal improvement in service for a few days / weeks at best before we're back to "lack of bus lanes" and continued insistence that it still is an "improved" bus service.

So... they're giving assurances of 4 buses every hour... Anyone else get a sinking feeling that instead of waiting around for 40 - 60 minutes for a bus that never showed only to have 3 come together at the same time that we'll now see 4 together?

Everyone needs to keep the momentum of pressure on Bus Eireann and be especially mindful to give clear, unambiguous feedback regarding their latest attempt to fix this "improved" service.

On another note the petition was mentioned in the Limerick Post.:)

sceptre

As the petition has (so far) only 280 signatures, it's probably just as well that they've acknowledged the problem before it had to be presented.:) 280 signatures in three days is quite encouraging but hardly earth-shattering, given the numbers using the buses. Far more likely that attention from the local press made a difference - BE press office in the big city on the east coast takes note of these things. Mind you, publicised petitions on local things can make local press pay attention.

I can see minor differences in the timetable but it doesn't appear to address the real issue of the route itself, including the extra urban loop and the problems people have identified with sometimes having to switch between buses that are stopping and starting in different locations (the occasional journey gap). If they're promising to ensure that there are buses there four times an hour, that's grand of them but that requires a level of route monitoring that they've never hitherto exhibited. I assume (there's that dangerous word) that all buses are now equipped with GPS so it's possible that they may be able to do that, time will tell. Given that they weren't doing that with a newly-promulgated timetable in the first place though, I retain my (optimistic) scepticism.

The true cynic would say that this new timetable is almost the same as the old one and that a promise to get four buses per hour to the two route-ends Raheen and UL/Castletroy is easily said by the bus people but might, at best, be done for the first few weeks until they slacken off again while the papers aren't looking - they're interested in bus armageddon, not ten or eleven buses being half an hour late. I'm (cautiously) a little more optimistic than that.

redron74

I'm away at the moment, so I haven't been on the buses for the last two weeks.
That "new" new 304 timetable looks the same as the "old" new 304 timetable.
I just signed the petition there.

Something I've just noticed though:
The timetable allows for a 30min journey time from UL to City Centre, but only 15mins from City Centre to UL! Now, I know the route from UL to City Centre goes around by the Kilmurray Roundabout, but does that extra bit really double the journey time? This suggests to me that there's a bit of a fudge in their journey time calculations and they were hoping this would help balance out the problem.

When you are emailing Bus Eireann, you should also CC the National Transport Authority. Whenever I've spoken to Bus Eireann drivers or officials about this, they have always said the changes have been imposed on them from the NTA. This may be a case of 'pass the buck', but obviously they have had at least some role in this debacle as their logos are prominently displayed on the new timetables and publicity flyer/ad.

I'm not sure about the buses being GPS equipped. A lot of the communication between inpectors and drivers seems to be done by phone or face-to-face. I know they've promised the live bus info will be here soon, but on the ground at the moment they don't appear to use any GPS information in managing the service. Pehaps GPS info is being gathered and might be used on a macro level, but it is not being used on a micro level.

As for the perenniel problem of 2 or 3 buses coming at once, this is really down to how the drivers are assessed on their productivity. They each start their shift with a target of getting a certain amount of runs in. So they start driving and hope for the best. If they get delayed at any point, they are always trying to catch up. So the drivers are trying their best to ensure the number of services per day meets the target set out on the timetables.
This policy, however, throws the timings on the timetables out. Hence we had someone previously quote a driver as saying: "Timetables?!? We just drive around!" (or something to that effect, sorry for being too lazy to look it up). Sometimes, though, they fall so far behind that if an inspector doesn't intervene to cancel a service, then you have two buses leaving at almost the same time.
Since in the new system the routes have been doubled up, drivers are more isolated from each other, and this is bound to happen more often. Previously, if a driver on the outward journey didn't meet his opposite number on the inward journey within a certain range, he knew that one of them was behind schedule. So they would help each other out throughout their shift. But now, instead of having 2 drivers keeping a route going, there are four, and they meet each other less often.
Also, the drivers need their breaks. It's at these times that you often have the disappearance of services. Many thoughtless people give out about drivers taking their breaks at inconvenient times. But every worker is entitled to a tea break and a lunch break, and I don't know anyone who isn't self employed who would work through their breaks voluntarily. The problem is that the driver who is supposed to take over is often stuck in traffic somewhere, or was delayed earlier so that he was late clocking off for his own break and rightly insists on taking his full break entitlement before going back to work.

But without bus lanes, it's very difficult to see a full solution to the problems with the service (they didn't just appear in the last month). No matter what way you tinker with the timetables, they will never be fulfilled properly because of the traffic congestion at peak times.
The only measure I can think of which would alleviate the situation somewhat, would be if Bus Eireann were provided with extra buses and given the funds to hire extra part-time drivers to be rostered to run extra "fill-in" services at peak times. But my fear is that such a sitaution would be pounced on by IBEC et al to push for more privatisation on the busiest and most potentially profitable routes, thus further undermining public investment in Bus Eireann.

Victor

Give this man some thanks!

dublinbusstuff wrote: »

For anyone else who found the Bus Eireann line map confusing with regards to where the buses actually went, I've put a map up at the following link:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dublinbusstuff/8100953944/in/photostream

Add any corrections to that thread.

djm11a

Can anybody confirm that i can get on the 301 opposite Raheen church and stay on to Arthurs quay. The map would suggest that i can but Bus Eireann journey plan suggest not

highlydebased

djm11a wrote: »

Can anybody confirm that i can get on the 301 opposite Raheen church and stay on to Arthurs quay. The map would suggest that i can but Bus Eireann journey plan suggest not

I would think so, yes

Victor

djm11a wrote: »

Can anybody confirm that i can get on the 301 opposite Raheen church and stay on to Arthurs quay. The map would suggest that i can but Bus Eireann journey plan suggest not

If you mean that it suggests taking two route 301 buses, this is because the terminus is at the hospital.

nebusfan

I thought they had put new bus lanes in on St Nessan's Road to and from the hospital and it was the start of new a green route plan,eventually covering more areas.The major problem is capacity,especially on the 304 as it runs packed from Raheen and then gets stuck in the city by running allover town and then the drag out to UOL.Why not do the sensible thing and trial the use of double deckers,borrowed from Bus Eireann at Dublin and see if this helps with overloading.
If not then look at cutting the route in 2 or linking other services.The only major way for stopping buses getting stuck is provide bus only lanes or traffic light adjustments or don't send them by a round the town tour,so they get caught up in loads of bottlenecks.It would be most interesting to find out who planned the new network,have they used the buses in the city and did they ask their customers what sort of service they wanted!

nebusfan

I thought they had put new bus lanes in on St Nessan's Road to and from the hospital and it was the start of new a green route plan,eventually covering more areas.The major problem is capacity,especially on the 304 as it runs packed from Raheen and then gets stuck in the city by running allover town and then the drag out to UOL.Why not do the sensible thing and trial the use of double deckers,borrowed from Bus Eireann at Dublin and see if this helps with overloading.
If not then look at cutting the route in 2 or linking other services.The only major way for stopping buses getting stuck is provide bus only lanes or traffic light adjustments or don't send them by a round the town tour,so they get caught up in loads of bottlenecks.It would be most interesting to find out who planned the new network,have they used the buses in the city and did they ask their customers what sort of service they wanted!

nebusfan

The operators have to submit a timetable licence to the NTA and when I checked I found all the services registered by Bus Eireann and Eurobus that run in the city.
Bus Eireann run 301,302,303,304,305,306 and Eurobus 307,308 and Nightlink which runs onTuesday,Wednesday and Thursday nights during university semesters only.
I visited the city recently and was totally baffled by the so called information and I have produced bus timetables and schedules for 25 years.I have printed off all the stuff from all parties and am compiling something to send to Bus Eireann to ask if they could improve their information

redron74

Although all 301 buses now serve Raheen Industrial Esate (not just a few in the morning and a few late afternoon), the timing of the buses doesn't take into account work patterns of the businesses there. The 08:10 (the one I use) gets you into the industrial estate at or just after 08:30. This means that if you start at 08:30 you're almost always going to be a few minutes late. This bus runs every 30 minutes, so you face the same situation if you start at 08:00 or 09:00 as well (actually, it's usually 09:10 or later, due to the heavier school traffic around that time).

It's good that they've put the new timetables up on a lot of the bus stops a few weeks ago, but there are still many stops with no timetable. Also, there are some stops with timetables displayed for buses that do not stop there (off the top of my head, on example that springs to mind is the stop on Mallow Street outside Park House (opposite the 'super loo' outside the entrance to the People's Park), which has both 301 and 304 timetables displayed, but only the 301 stops there).
Any time I've been at the bus shelter at Arthurs Quay since the new routes have come in, I haven't seen any timetables on display. And this is supposed to be a "Terminus" for two routes! I know the timetable displays are subject to petty vandalism, but this seems ridiculous, especially when those at William St and Henry St are ok.

nebusfan

I contacted the city council to try and find out who is supposed to put up bus stops as loads of stops are secret,maybe I should ring up Roxboro Road and ask if the journey planner or timetables come with a free crystal ball as that is the only way you can tell where the bus stops. I contacted them last week and am awaiting an answer....hopefully.I have never encountered such a bag of knackers in all my life!.

Victor

The bus companies are responsible for the poles, the council for the roads markings.

Some councils also do shelters, but it tends to be advertising companies.

nebusfan

If the 301 is causing problems for passengers going to the hospital stressing cos it diverts via Father Russel Road,why does BE not change the route and send it straight down St nessans Road to the Church like the 304,giving the route 6 buses an hour and better service and then send it via Raheen Industrial Estate then and back to town via Father Russel Road,so opposite direction,which will require new stops other side of road that makes more sence to me.Also for the UoL why not run a few express journeys(309) in the peaks from town starting at Arthurs Quay and running via Dublin Road then express-no stops or maybe change the 306 so it serves the University as well as Brookfield.

redron74

nebusfan wrote: »

If the 301 is causing problems for passengers going to the hospital stressing cos it diverts via Father Russel Road,why does BE not change the route and send it straight down St nessans Road to the Church like the 304,giving the route 6 buses an hour and better service and then send it via Raheen Industrial Estate then and back to town via Father Russel Road,so opposite direction,which will require new stops other side of road that makes more sence to me.

The real problem here is that the Hospital has been designated as the 'terminus' on this route, rather than Raheen Roundabout (which would be a more natural designation, as it is more-or-less the turnaround point on the route). People going to the Hospital get on the 301 because it has Hospital/Ospideal written in lights on the front of it (and on the side too on the newer buses)!!!

nebusfan wrote: »

Also for the UoL why not run a few express journeys(309) in the peaks from town starting at Arthurs Quay and running via Dublin Road then express-no stops or maybe change the 306 so it serves the University as well as Brookfield.

I was on the 306 for the first time the other day, but got off at the Parkway. It was very quiet, especially for a 5:00pm service. But I'm not surprised at this, as there are no timetables on display at the bus shelter at Arthurs Quay Park (the starting point on this route). So unless you look it up online, there is no evidence to the casual bus user that this service exists! If you usually use the 304 heading to UL, why would you risk going for this bus which only runs once per hour (and it doesn't run on sundays)?

But rather than change this route to service UL, I think it should be extended to serve the City East Plaza. There are bus bays near the roundbout on the Tipperary Road, which if it stopped there would leave people within reasonable walking distance of B&Q, Harvey Norman, etc.

redron74

Well, it seems one of the promised improvements to the service is on its way:
I saw my first electronic 'Real Time Passenger Information' sign this evening.

It was at the bus stop across the road from the Regional Hospital.
But the bus shelter at this stop has been taken away! Hopefully this is just temporary.

miralize

Seen them too outside the crescent. Nothing like getting actual evidence from Bus Eireann of how late their schedule gets

nebusfan

Yeah the signs are there but are they connected to power and more importantly have any of the buses at Limerick have transponders on them? DOES ANYONE HAVE A CONTACT AT BE?

highlydebased

nebusfan wrote: »

Yeah the signs are there but are they connected to power and more importantly have any of the buses at Limerick have transponders on them? DOES ANYONE HAVE A CONTACT AT BE?

Yes and yes, to the first two questions. The buses have had the gear for years

redron74

nebusfan wrote: »

Yeah the signs are there but are they connected to power and more importantly have any of the buses at Limerick have transponders on them? DOES ANYONE HAVE A CONTACT AT BE?

highlydebased wrote: »

Yes and yes, to the first two questions. The buses have had the gear for years

There was talk years ago (I can't remember exactly when, but I'd say it's about 7-8 years ago) of modifying the traffic light system so that if a bus was approaching a red light it would be detected and the light cycle would adapt to change to green sooner than it otherwise would. I don't know if this was ever implemented, but I think a delegation from City Council visited some city in Britain at the time to see such a system in action.
This proposal was being considered as an alternative to bus lanes.

highlydebased

redron74 wrote: »

There was talk years ago (I can't remember exactly when, but I'd say it's about 7-8 years ago) of modifying the traffic light system so that if a bus was approaching a red light it would be detected and the light cycle would adapt to change to green sooner than it otherwise would. I don't know if this was ever implemented, but I think a delegation from City Council visited some city in Britain at the time to see such a system in action.
This proposal was being considered as an alternative to bus lanes.

I think this is apparently the case at the lights at Roches Street- though it probably doesn't work unless the bus is very near the lights and it certainly is not very effective