Do you consider yourself a feminist?

Rosy Posy

Was struck by the feminist bashing going on in the C-word thread.

I was raised by a dyed-in-the-wool card carrying placard waving feminist mother and I feel that the movement let her and women in general down. My biggest issue is with the myth of 'having it all'. My mam pursued a career in a traditionally male dominated field working long long hours and having fcuk all time to spend with family or on a life of her own. It seemed that for her to succeed she had to deny her feminine/maternal side.

I would consider myself a post-feminist. On paper I'm the epitome of 1950's traditional womanhood- SAHM, hobbies include needlework, baking, clothes, voluntary work in the community (and my mother is secretly horrified) but I believe that I deserve equal respect and recognition from society for this as my husband does for going out and earning our living. We certainly have an equal partnership where decisions are made jointly.

So what relevance does feminism have to other ladies lives?

Wompa1

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Was struck by the feminist bashing going on in the C-word thread.

I was raised by a dyed-in-the-wool card carrying placard waving feminist mother and I feel that the movement let her and women in general down. My biggest issue is with the myth of 'having it all'. My mam pursued a career in a traditionally male dominated field working long long hours and having fcuk all time to spend with family or on a life of her own. It seemed that for her to succeed she had to deny her feminine/maternal side.

I would consider myself a post-feminist. On paper I'm the epitome of 1950's traditional womanhood- SAHM, hobbies include needlework, baking, clothes, voluntary work in the community (and my mother is secretly horrified) but I believe that I deserve equal respect and recognition from society for this as my husband does for going out and earning our living. We certainly have an equal partnership where decisions are made jointly.

So what relevance does feminism have to other ladies lives?

I'm a guy so can't comment as to the relevance of feminism in a ladies life but I would think especially nowadays the way things are. Like how you described yourself you are stating you enjoy stereotypically 50's ladies hobbies, and because of that I would say you are more of a non-conformist than a lot, than certainly the current pop culture portrays how a woman should be. The current modern day womans image as far as I can see I think is to be fiercely independent, have a liberal idealogoy and subscribe to this sexual empowerment kick.

No matter who a person is. Live the life you want to live. If you feel uncomfortable doing certain things or acting a certain way, screw it, you'll be happier being true to yourself in the long run than somebody who follows the herd. Good for you. Don't worry about what other think, only one life to live. Live it well

Rosy Posy

Wompa1 wrote: »

The current modern day womans image as far as I can see I think is to be fiercely independent, have a liberal idealogoy and subscribe to this sexual empowerment kick.

Y'see I would see myself as all of the above while staying at home to raise children and partaking in 'traditional' female activities. For me the crux of (post) feminism is to be able to be all of these things without having to deny my femininity but rather to demand that these things are given equal value and respect.

Wompa1

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Y'see I would see myself as all of the above while staying at home to raise children and partaking in 'traditional' female activities. For me the crux of (post) feminism is to be able to be all of these things without having to deny my femininity but rather to demand that these things are given equal value and respect.

Oh so do you think other women judge you because you are a stay out home mom or something? I'm sure they don't, feminists fought for womens rights to choose for decades, it would be pretty hypocritical of any feminist to look down or put you down for your choices.

Rosy Posy

Wompa1 wrote: »

Oh so do you think other women judge you because you are a stay out home mom or something? I'm sure they don't, feminists fought for womens rights to choose for decades, it would be pretty hypocritical of any feminist to look down or put you down for your choices.

I get that from my mam a little bit, although she'd never say it, I think its more to do with her perception that I'm squandering my university education. I think that 1960's/70's feminism was all about getting women out of the home and the kitchen but in fact imposed a different set of prescribed expectations. Read an interesting book on the subject by Victoria White called Mother Ireland. Definitely get less respect for being a SAHM in Ireland than elsewhere.

Wompa1

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I get that from my mam a little bit, although she'd never say it, I think its more to do with her perception that I'm squandering my university education. I think that 1960's/70's feminism was all about getting women out of the home and the kitchen but in fact imposed a different set of prescribed expectations. Read an interesting book on the subject by Victoria White called Mother Ireland. Definitely get less respect for being a SAHM in Ireland than elsewhere.

Interesting. In fairness in Ireland a University Education isn't exactly hard fought compared to other countries. It's something that's been readily available to people for a few decades now. Alright I know you have to study to pass but in the big scheme of things you can go to college in Ireland and get a degree to fall back on. I had no interest in going to college but decided to do it just to have something to fall back on. I ended up pursuing a job mainly because I got sick of retail and ironically had to pay back a student loan...but point being, you've got a degree, that's something you have to fall back on if needed and also helped refine your earlier education into a specialized field. It helped expand your knowledge. That's a good thing, it doesn't mean you have to use it.

I am the only person from first year of my course to actually finish and get the degree. Not because I was the smartest. Others just decided they'd be happier doing something else. Out of the one's I still know, one became a Montessori teacher, one became a car salesman and another is a manager in Super Value. A degree is just a foot in a door somewhere. It's up to you what door you go through

Rosy Posy

Wompa1 wrote: »

Interesting. In fairness in Ireland a University Education isn't exactly hard fought compared to other countries. It's something that's been readily available to people for a few decades now. Alright I know you have to study to pass but in the big scheme of things you can go to college in Ireland and get a degree to fall back on. I had no interest in going to college but decided to do it just to have something to fall back on. I ended up pursuing a job mainly because I got sick of retail and ironically had to pay back a student loan...but point being, you've got a degree, that's something you have to fall back on if needed and also helped refine your earlier education into a specialized field. It helped expand your knowledge. That's a good thing, it doesn't mean you have to use it.

I am the only person from first year of my course to actually finish and get the degree. Not because I was the smartest. Others just decided they'd be happier doing something else. Out of the one's I still know, one became a Montessori teacher, one became a car salesman and another is a manager in Super Value. A degree is just a foot in a door somewhere. It's up to you what door you go through

Funnily enough, when I finished my degree I thought I'd never go back but now after three kids I'm looking forward to continuing my education once they're all at school (still a few years off yet). I figure that the feminist promise 'you can have it all' is swizz in some respects but I'd like to think I'll have time to pursue a fullfilling career once my kids are old enough and hopefully I'll be lucky enough to be able to fit it in around school times. In saying that I'm blessed that my OH has a job that will allow me to take my time and study too.

Wompa1

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Funnily enough, when I finished my degree I thought I'd never go back but now after three kids I'm looking forward to continuing my education once they're all at school (still a few years off yet). I figure that the feminist promise 'you can have it all' is swizz in some respects but I'd like to think I'll have time to pursue a fullfilling career once my kids are old enough and hopefully I'll be lucky enough to be able to fit it in around school times. In saying that I'm blessed that my OH has a job that will allow me to take my time and study too.

That's pretty cool. Marriage is a two way street. Some day hopefully I'll have kids and when I do I would suspect if it makes financial sense, one of us would stop working for a while and if it made sense that I be that person, I'd do it. I think the betterment of your family outweighs trying to conform to others outdated views.

flowerchild

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Was struck by the feminist bashing going on in the C-word thread.

I was raised by a dyed-in-the-wool card carrying placard waving feminist mother and I feel that the movement let her and women in general down. My biggest issue is with the myth of 'having it all'. My mam pursued a career in a traditionally male dominated field working long long hours and having fcuk all time to spend with family or on a life of her own. It seemed that for her to succeed she had to deny her feminine/maternal side.

I would consider myself a post-feminist. On paper I'm the epitome of 1950's traditional womanhood- SAHM, hobbies include needlework, baking, clothes, voluntary work in the community (and my mother is secretly horrified) but I believe that I deserve equal respect and recognition from society for this as my husband does for going out and earning our living. We certainly have an equal partnership where decisions are made jointly.

So what relevance does feminism have to other ladies lives?

High relevance. I wear the label of feminist proudly, as does my husband.

I think feminism promotes choice rather than prescriptively saying you ought not to work in the home full-time.

Should others value your chosen activities as you do? I don't think so. They are simply a choice like any other way of contributing or filling in time. Others should have freedom to value them or not, depending on their own values or priorities.

I think you can have it all, and would not blame feminism for raising those expectations. I am bringing up two beautiful boys together with my husband (hard work as well as very satisfying) and working and we have an organised happy home. But it does need both of us to fully focus on each other, the boys, earning money, studying, being a daughter, and our home. It is easy to feel squeezed at times.

I think the interesting aspect for me is combining feminism with ideas that relationships have more passion where there is polarity between the masculine and feminine.

And I would ditch the term 'ladies'. In my view it has no place in feminist discourse.

Rosy Posy

flowerchild wrote: »

And I would ditch the term 'ladies'. In my view it has no place in feminist discourse.

Funnily my mam has a problem with it too. I rarely used it until I emigrated, but here (NZ) it tends to be used as the generic. My kids picked it up and I quite like it as I believe it fosters a sense of respect for women that is thin on the ground in this age of bitches and ho's in the media. I believe that my mam associates it with behavioural restrictions, which is why she disapproves.

lazygal

Did feminism promise women they could have it all?

I'm not sure as a movement it did. I think it set out to offer women choices that weren't formerly available to them, like working outside the home, progressing to higher education and not having to be the 'traditional' stay at home wife after marriage with the availability of birth control.

I would consider myself a feminist. My mum worked after she married and continued to work when we were small. Some people might not think its a big deal but she also never changed her name, and I'm quite proud of her for not conforming as she got a lot of stick from her male colleagues for not changing it and for returning to work after having children.

I think its easy for my generation of women (I'm 30) to look down on feminism and consider it an irrelevance or that we were sold a dud with having to combine work and child rearing. But I think of even the world my mum lived in, where the boys in her family were given a superior education, were left the family farm, she had no access (legally) to birth control until the mid 1970s, had 12 weeks of maternity leave, could legally have been raped by her husband, no access to divorce and legally could be paid less than male colleagues and I think feminism has done an acceptable job.

As as married woman with a child in 2012 I don't feel too badly done by. I'm half waiting for the usual boards.ie cries of 'What about MEN'S RIGHTS, women have it all' to descend on this thread. Its so easy for women to be complacent about the advances the feminist movement have made, but I wouldn't trade in any of the changes they brought about. I strongly suspect that if we hadn't joined the EU when we did some of the advances (such as the dropping of the marriage bar) would have been even slower.

Morag

Rosy Posy wrote: »

On paper I'm the epitome of 1950's traditional womanhood- SAHM, hobbies include needlework, baking, clothes, voluntary work in the community (and my mother is secretly horrified) but I believe that I deserve equal respect and recognition from society for this as my husband does for going out and earning our living. We certainly have an equal partnership where decisions are made jointly.

You can be all that and still be a feminist.
I too am a stay at home parent who bakes and sews and gardens and does voluntary work and I am a feminist.

Rosy Posy

flowerchild wrote: »

Should others value your chosen activities as you do? I don't think so. They are simply a choice like any other way of contributing or filling in time. Others should have freedom to value them or not, depending on their own values or priorities.

I think that traditional 'female' activities are devalued across time and culture. When I was in Africa I noticed that the bulk of heavy lifting work was done by women, and that sewing tended to be done by men. Accordingly the sewing was assigned a higher social value, as skilled work, compared with the menial labour of the 'women's work'.

For me a central tenet to my own brand of (post) feminism is 'different but equal'- working towards a society that values the traditional work of women, whether it is carried out by women or men. Of course individuals are free to assign value in whatever way they deem fit but you can't deny that this is greatly influenced by the ethos of our society as a whole.

Morag

Rosy Posy it sounds like your mother was (as they put in it those days) a women's libber.
My parents were too, those of us who are in our late 30 early 40s, grew up in an age of women's issue activism in this country and now we are seeing a new wave of activism start but for us during our 20s there wasn't as much going on.

It has been sort of strange to now see the rising tide of activism as more an more people (men and women) in their 20s become active and say they are feminists. It is great that they have peers and to see the discussions and issues being worked on.

I know my lilfe is better due to the work of the 'Libbers' and I hope that this new round of activism will make more positive changes.

There's a interesting article by someone else who's of the same generation in the the irish times this morning.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/0904/1224323570122.html


Your feminism doesn't have to be the same as your mother, it's a broad movement and it evolves.

Jerrica

flowerchild wrote: »

And I would ditch the term 'ladies'. In my view it has no place in feminist discourse.

Why is that? Is 'ladies' considered a term not in keeping with feminist ideology?

Morag

Jerrica wrote: »

Why is that? Is 'ladies' considered a term not in keeping with feminist ideology?

Because it would have restricted women to conform to lady like behavior.
This is an older school of thought which goes back to the days were Ladies didn't swear, wear trousers, didn't contradict men, didn't speak at public gatherings, didn't drink in public ect. Suffragettes refused to be ladies as ladies didn't take part in protests in public, break windows or kick policemen in the shins.

Rosy Posy

Sharrow wrote: »

There's a interesting article by someone else who's of the same generation in the the irish times this morning.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/0904/1224323570122.html


Your feminism doesn't have to be the same as your mother, it's a broad movement and it evolves.

That's a great article, I'll definitely be following her blog.

I think one of my issues was the hard veneer that my mam had to put up when competing with the boys, and to see that falling away and her allowing herself to be herself since retiring, it made me question how much the movement had done for her. But I suppose you have to look at it as a continuum- the libbers did what was needed to be done at the time to break the mould, now it falls to us to take up the mantle and reshape it.

Jerrica

Sharrow wrote: »

Because it would have restricted women to conform to lady like behavior.
This is an older school of thought which goes back to the days were Ladies didn't swear, wear trousers, didn't contradict men, didn't speak at public gatherings, didn't drink in public ect. Suffragettes refused to be ladies as ladies didn't take part in protests in public, break windows or kick policemen in the shins.

Ah ok, that makes sense. But surely now that association has long since disappeared? I use the term with great affection, and if anything a term of endearment.

Giselle

Rosy Posy wrote: »

So what relevance does feminism have to other ladies lives?

I'd say it informs most of how I can live my life. Without feminism it would be legal to deny me employment for being female, legal to pay me less for the same work, legal for a husband to rape me, acceptable to blame me for any assault on my person, and commonplace to vilify me if I didn't put a partners needs before my own. To name a few. Few things annoy me more than a girl saying she owes nothing to feminism.

At this point in the evolution of feminism, the battles have been won but the attitudes are ingrained and I think it'll be generations before a drunk rape victim in a short dress doesn't evoke the usual response. In many ways the post-feminism role is a sort of watchdog, making sure these respects and freedoms aren't eroded by complacency. Eyes on the ball, so to speak.

My own mother often cautioned me that having it all, for a woman, usually translated into doing it all, and encouraged me to make choices that would give me a better work/life balance than she had. Not too sure how thats going to work out just yet!

Regarding the term 'ladies', I love it. I don't ascribe qualities like modesty or repressed behaviour to it, I take it as meaning a contained, thoughtful person. I never consider calling a man a gentleman as being an insult, and I want to claim a nice word to describe women who carry themselves in a way I admire.

As Rosy Posy says, when c-nt, bitch and ho are commonplace, so maybe we should claim something a little calmer and kinder to describe ourselves.

Rosy Posy

Sharrow wrote: »

Because it would have restricted women to conform to lady like behavior.
This is an older school of thought which goes back to the days were Ladies didn't swear, wear trousers, didn't contradict men, didn't speak at public gatherings, didn't drink in public ect. Suffragettes refused to be ladies as ladies didn't take part in protests in public, break windows or kick policemen in the shins.

I like the idea of reclaiming 'lady', turning it into a term of respect.

Morag

Jerrica wrote: »

Ah ok, that makes sense. But surely now that association has long since disappeared? I use the term with great affection, and if anything a term of endearment.

I would never describe myself as a Lady, but I don't take offense to other people calling me that, it's better then girl and if they want to imply I have more class then I have, then that's ok with me.

Rosy Posy

Giselle wrote: »

My own mother often cautioned me that having it all, for a woman, usually translated into doing it all, and encouraged me to make choices that would give me a better work/life balance than she had. Not too sure how thats going to work out just yet!

A character in Martin Amis' 'The Pregnant Widow' says to her mother that the central aim of the movement should have been 'fifty fifty in the home'. Too many women work a double day in and out of the home. In fairness my father did more than his share of the housework, but mam worked longer hours and had the bigger wage packet. My current take on 'having it all' is that you can have it all just not all at once.

mackg

Rosy Posy wrote: »

A character in Martin Amis' 'The Pregnant Widow' says to her mother that the central aim of the movement should have been 'fifty fifty in the home'. Too many women work a double day in and out of the home. In fairness my father did more than his share of the housework, but mam worked longer hours and had the bigger wage packet. My current take on 'having it all' is that you can have it all just not all at once.

Surely this is the easiest thing of all to remedy though?

Rosy Posy

mackg wrote: »

Surely this is the easiest thing of all to remedy though?

I'm trying to remedy it now by teaching my sons to cook and clean and expecting them to make that contribution to the household. My OH never had that expectation and he literally can't wash a pot. Its fine for now as thats how we've worked out the division of labour. By the time I return to work my sons will be able to fill the breach, I suppose.

flowerchild

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I think that traditional 'female' activities are devalued across time and culture.

Yes, and in pay rates for professions dominated by women.

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I think one of my issues was the hard veneer that my mam had to put up when competing with the boys

Nobody has to put on a hard veneer to be a leader. My mother was president of her union and chair of many organisations and boards, but she had (and has) a very feminine personal style. I just wouldn't take her for granted in a conversation. lol

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I like the idea of reclaiming 'lady', turning it into a term of respect.

The reclaim language movement still has me wondering what I think. Some feminists reclaim Miss in the same way and Slut as well, witness the annual SlutWalks, which I went to by the way with my husband and young boys. It was great - they now chant 'Yes means yes and no means no, whatever we wear and wherever we go'. I had no idea participation in the march would be so powerful.

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Too many women work a double day in and out of the home.

Poor negotiators. My father did 50/50 without blinking and so does my husband. It is not a generational thing, it is about core values and ways of being together as a couple and as parents.

lazygal

flowerchild wrote: »

Poor negotiators. My father did 50/50 without blinking and so does my husband. It is not a generational thing, it is about core values and ways of being together as a couple and as parents. My mother said to me to always have high expectations in life since people tend to respond to expectations.

I agree. My dad was hands-on from the start. It might have helped that he lived on his own before meeting my mum so was used to doing his own cooking, cleaning and laundry. Me and my husband work full time (I'll be going back to fulltime work after maternity leave) and we have a cleaner once a week as I wasn't going to spend our time together arguing about cleaning. We divide up jobs evenly, at the moment I have more time to cook and do other 'housey' bits, but he'll share what needs doing. I'm also capable of taking out the lawnmower or fixing a leaky tap, thanks to my parents who didn't delegate chores based on gender in their house.

Giselle

flowerchild wrote: »

Poor negotiators. My father did 50/50 without blinking and so does my husband. It is not a generational thing, it is about core values and ways of being together as a couple and as parents.

Not always. In my home, my fathers career involved huge amounts of travel, and for my mother that translated into full time work together with virtual single parenthood for large periods.

My father was extremely hands on when possible.

Its also very dependent on attitudes in the man's family of origin.

Eve_Dublin

adjective Sometimes, fem·i·nis·tic .
1.
advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men.

I'm a feminist, yes, although day-to-day I'd be more concerned with the equal rights of people, both women and men. Us (men and women united) against them. 50 years ago I wouldn't have been the position to say that, so feminism has got me to the point where I feel I'm almost on par with men in the country I'm from (although not as much in the country I live in) and can now fight in the struggle for equality in society for all of us and be taken seriously.

I'm lucky enough to say that but unfortunately so many women worldwide aren't. Usually women are treated as second class citizens in the poorest countries, so they've an even bigger fight ahead of them.

Cavehill Red

Rosy Posy wrote: »

A character in Martin Amis' 'The Pregnant Widow' says to her mother that the central aim of the movement should have been 'fifty fifty in the home'. Too many women work a double day in and out of the home. In fairness my father did more than his share of the housework, but mam worked longer hours and had the bigger wage packet. My current take on 'having it all' is that you can have it all just not all at once.

You do know that novel is entirely about how feminism went wrong and the terrible impact it had on women's lives, don't you?

flowerchild

Giselle wrote: »

Not always. In my home, my fathers career involved huge amounts of travel, and for my mother that translated into full time work together with virtual single parenthood for large periods.

My father was extremely hands on when possible.

Its also very dependent on attitudes in the man's family of origin.

This is a question, not a criticism. Aren't all of these situations ones where there is a choice about whether to accept 'the frame'?

In my view, inequality in the home is always a choice. Even in very traditional and patriarchal societies some women (and men) choose not to accept the status quo.

meeeeh

Wompa1 wrote: »

Oh so do you think other women judge you because you are a stay out home mom or something? I'm sure they don't, feminists fought for womens rights to choose for decades, it would be pretty hypocritical of any feminist to look down or put you down for your choices.

I don't want this to be taken in the wrong way. I grew up in a society where stay at home mums were extremely rare and it was quite a shock when I moved here. And I'll admit that some of my opinions were a bit judgmental. The irony is that now I work part time. I even learned to cook. I do most of the housework but I do live with someone that works anywhere from 10 to 18 hours per day and is never home before six in the evening. And yet, I must admit, I still feel a bit guilty sometimes for having one or two extra days "off".

I don't like to label myself anything and I don't know if I fit the profile anyway. I hate tabloids, soaps and footballer's wives lifestyles, I like football, F1, fashion and art. I'm interested in politics, strongly believe in equality, gay rights (adaption and all), abortion etc. and would never support traditional left wing party because of their economic policies. And I hate how sexual harassment and violence inside home are defined as female issues. They are not, men can be victims as well. Anyway I don't know what that makes me. Feminism is a movement that defines itself as movement for equal rights of women and while I agree with a lot or most of it's ideas, I define myself as a human first and then as a female.

Edit: this is a bit of a ramble, I'm not even sure I know what I wanted to say.