Terminally Single

castaway_lady

What would you do if the following was your life story?
- 35 female, never been in a relationship or had any interest from men
- almost completely inexperienced at intimacy
- get on great with men in every other way
- they talk to me about mutual interests but they date other women (mostly prettier versions)
- tried the usual ream of advice: join a gym, clubs of interest, take classes, online dating.......

I managed to spend a good while distracting myself with studies, career, interests etc etc but low and behold they don't work anymore.

Pubs and clubs were never my thing as Im not a drinker, but at this stage I don't even have any single friends to go out with. Even in the company of women I feel like Im always on the periphery looking in at their coupled lives and experiences while hoping that my lack of anything doesn't crop up.

Every day I suck it up and do a great job of convincing the world Im a happy. productive camper which isn't the case even though I do lots of activities and involvements that I enjoy. I feel like I've missed out on so much and I envy siblings and friends and even my parents who are in happy relationships, making plans etc etc.

I have no reason to believe that I'll ever get a shot at what I want and at this stage just wish that I could find some kind of acceptance that this is it. But even physically Im so frustrated and crave physical contact- even though I only have an imaginary perception of what Im missing? Even my mother has me written off!

Has anyone got their head around being in the same position?

p.s. Please don't post if all you have to say is any of the following:
- men are like buses....etc
- stop looking and you'll find it
- online dating is the mecca (been there, tried it several times, not going there again)

sharper

It's a very difficult situation to be in.

Most people don't understand it on any level and maybe that's a good thing - for them it all just happens. They go about their lives and do stuff and everything falls into place.

When it doesn't happen it's a very lonely and confusing place. People usually want to start with what's wrong with you since the assumption is if it's not happening there must be something desperately off-putting. In some cases maybe but in others people seem perfectly kind, decent and attractive looking but can't make things happen.

Advice? Well I'm probably the last person to advise anyone and anyway it'd be all the usual generic stuff like "join a club". I guess you could start with who is the type of guy you want to meet and where might he be found? My experience is online dating is just as bad as regular dating but it might be worth keeping that door open anyway, at least then there's a chance something will happen.

purplepapillon

castaway_lady wrote: »

What would you do if the following was your life story?
- 35 female, never been in a relationship or had any interest from men
- almost completely inexperienced at intimacy
- get on great with men in every other way
- they talk to me about mutual interests but they date other women (mostly prettier versions)
- tried the usual ream of advice: join a gym, clubs of interest, take classes, online dating.......

I managed to spend a good while distracting myself with studies, career, interests etc etc but low and behold they don't work anymore.

Pubs and clubs were never my thing as Im not a drinker, but at this stage I don't even have any single friends to go out with. Even in the company of women I feel like Im always on the periphery looking in at their coupled lives and experiences while hoping that my lack of anything doesn't crop up.

Every day I suck it up and do a great job of convincing the world Im a happy. productive camper which isn't the case even though I do lots of activities and involvements that I enjoy. I feel like I've missed out on so much and I envy siblings and friends and even my parents who are in happy relationships, making plans etc etc.

I have no reason to believe that I'll ever get a shot at what I want and at this stage just wish that I could find some kind of acceptance that this is it. But even physically Im so frustrated and crave physical contact- even though I only have an imaginary perception of what Im missing? Even my mother has me written off!

Has anyone got their head around being in the same position?

p.s. Please don't post if all you have to say is any of the following:
- men are like buses....etc
- stop looking and you'll find it
- online dating is the mecca (been there, tried it several times, not going there again)

Hi Castaway,

I feel for you. I've highlighted a few things in your post that stand out to me.

Firstly, you say guys are friends with you but go for "prettier versions". You need to stop comparison to others. I know this is difficult, it is probably ingrained at this stage. You are the only version of yourself. Guys aren't simply trading up/down. Perhaps you lack self-confidence? I'm just surmising, so I apologise if I'm wrong of course. Self-confidence (even faked confidence) is something people are attracted to, in terms of friends and a partner. It's not overt, I think it's more an "animalistic" kind of instinct. People sway towards those who appear confident/happy.

You're convincing the world you're happy. You have nobody to convince but yourself. If you are not happy, you should seek ways to be happy. I firmly believe you should love yourself first. Nobody will do that for you. Identify aspects of yourself of which you are proud, and be happy with those. Improve other things maybe. We all put on a show for the world, but the only place we can be happy intially is in our own self.

You've missed out on so much. What particularly? Would you like to travel? Maybe try a singles holiday. I know some cringe at such an idea. But so what? Maybe it's for you. Contiki tours are one I have heard of. Holidays and meeting people abroad are a great way of getting to know yourself, and learning to rely on yourself. You are the only person who can make friends on this holiday, thus you have to be yourself, work out what that is, and enjoy it.

Envy will get you nowhere. Try to be happy for others. Parental pressures to be in a relationship, get into one, are just insufferable. Societal pressures are the same. You are 35, so what?! There is no time limit on anything. You have yonks ahead. If you rush through, you won't enjoy life.

You crave acceptance. Don't we all? This comes back to the above, about loving yourself. Your family and friends all love you. You need to too. You need to accept yourself, by yourself. Maybe try writing a bit. That sometimes helps me. What kind of person are you? Are you a good friend, an aunt, a kind person, a good listener, empathetic, considerate, caring, intelligent? Are you good at sports? What do you enjoy about sports/hobbies and why? You are all these things, and when you meet someone, you will bring all this to a friendship/relationship. This is a lot more than being a mere statistic "cohabiting/married/single" and just categorised.

Best wishes OP
x

PS Your username strikes me "castaway" as "cast aside" or "cast away on a desert island". You're not alone. You're not cast aside either. I'd prefer if you "cast the dice" and take a risk in something, take a chance on yourself.

mtjm

35 is still young by today standards, I'm sure you'll find someone some stage lease when you expect it

keep the chin up Mr. Right is out there somewhere

castaway_lady

sharper wrote: »

I guess you could start with who is the type of guy you want to meet and where might he be found?

I've met guys regularly via hobbies & work mostly that are of interest to me...but it's never been a two way thing. To show interest, even subtly leads to them retreating. I can see this.I don't think it's a bad idea to compare myself to others as someone suggested- I need to look and understand the 'whys' and hoodwinking myself doesn't achieve anything either. I'm not saying that I have nothing in comparison to others to offer a guy, I know I do but they don't want what's on offer here.

I know my post probably paints me as someone with self-esteem issues, but this definitely hasn't always been the case and self-doubt only applies to this aspect of my life and it's pretty much been eroded by a lifetime of failure in the area. Nor am I consistently unhappy through every aspect of my life, it's not as if I don't do things that I enjoy, but I feel like there's a missing part of the puzzle. Even thinking about the last 3-4 months, I've been to several events, couple of trips- but all were by myself. There are definitely times when I don't get to do stuff because there's nobody to go with and I just can't face yet another day of talking to myself. Travel is very definitely one of these things, I've tried group tours and never again- it's like a week long job interview if you go with people your own age or older and it's alcohol fueled carnage with twenty-somethings. Last year I went alone and ended up spending €260 on an early flight back because I was miserable.

Now at this age what I know about relationships I could write on a post-it note and this creates an additional barrier even if the unlikely opportunity arrived. Last week I sat at a meeting at work with 60 other people there, all attached and honestly wondered if I exist in a parallel universe? :rolleyes:

I need it to not matter to me anymore, I need to not want what I clearly can't have.

LegacyUser

OP I'm also an eternal singleton so don't know how helpful this will be but as you seem to be looking for something practical you can change - it strikes me that perhaps you are too self sufficient?

I know personally when i was younger i was a lot more, shy and timid I guess, but over the last few years i've become much more confident and self-sufficient (the joys of being constantly single) and now at 28 I notice I receive far far less attention from men. I had a male friend I'd recently made tell me some time ago that I came across as cold and unapproachable, and another guy a few months later who I had a bit of a short fling with tell me the same thing, I then confided in a female colleague I had been so scared about "X" project in work and she looked amazed, told me she couldn't believe it, she'd never have thought I was the type to get stressed or scared! . It's something personally, I'm trying to address and am beginning to see a change in how people relate to me. While yes confidence is attractive I think that men are attracted to women who have a bit of vulnerability about them too. When I sat down myself and thought about this, I know I'm certainly attracted to guys I feel protective of and want to take care of.

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe you have done such a good job convincing the world, and the men around you that you are "happy" and "productive" that you've lost that vulnerability and come across as driven and like you "don't need a man". I guess for men that can be a bit off putting, (I don't mean this to sound chauvinistic) but kinda like there'd me no room in your life for him to take care of you or you wouldn't need him emotionally because you're self sufficient and happy and content without him (even it that's not entirely true), not to mention extremely intimidating.

Maybe I'm way off the mark OP, but it is okay to show men and those around you that you are in fact you are a little bit vulnerable and are just as in need of being taken care of sometimes as everyone else. Instead of hiding your emotions, sometimes telling people how you really feel, letting people 'in' I guess, letting people see what's beneath the "happy" facade. It might just make you seem more "real" and relate-able to guys than that self-suffient (maybe cold) front of a person you (possibly) portray to them? Also if you don't already, tell people you're single, don't make it into a horrible hidden secret, again personally I've found that a lot of guys just presume I have a boyfriend because of how comfortable I am in male company and how portray myself.

best of luck OP

sharper

castaway_lady wrote: »

To show interest, even subtly leads to them retreating.

You need to be careful about this type of thinking. Most people learn what "works" with other people via success, not failure. When you experience only failure you basically have no idea what's going wrong because people never really explain themselves and even if they try it's not necessarily accurate.

Nevertheless your brain will try to piece together something to explain what's going on and will increasingly use a negative image of yourself as the basis.

purplepapillon highlighted your "mostly prettier versions" comment above and here you have another explanation for other people's behaviour which is based off a negative view of yourself.

Men generally aren't good at picking up hints and most especially subtle ones. I've also fallen into the trap of explaining changes in people's behaviour with my attempts to interact with them only to later learn that change was nothing whatsoever to do with me.

More generally: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

In social psychology, the fundamental attribution error (also known as correspondence bias or attribution effect) describes the tendency to over-value dispositional or personality-based explanations for the observed behaviors of others while under-valuing situational explanations for those behaviors. The fundamental attribution error is most visible when people explain the behavior of others. It does not explain interpretations of one's own behavior—where situational factors are often taken into consideration. This discrepancy is called the actor–observer bias.

We tend to attribute an observed effect to potential causes that capture our attention. When we observe other people, the person is the primary reference point while the situation is overlooked as if it is nothing but mere background. So, attributions for others' behavior are more likely to focus on the person we see, not the situational forces acting upon that person that we may not be aware of.[12][13][14] (When we observe ourselves, we are more aware of the forces acting upon us. Such a differential inward vs. outward orientation[15] accounts for the actor-observer bias.)

Of course again it's very very easy to fall into this way of thinking when you're not experiencing success and you don't have anyone telling you "Actually you're pretty awesome to be around". Getting by without support from someone that knows you intimately is hard and sometimes even self hatred feels better than unending confusion and pain.

Now at this age what I know about relationships I could write on a post-it note and this creates an additional barrier even if the unlikely opportunity arrived. Last week I sat at a meeting at work with 60 other people there, all attached and honestly wondered if I exist in a parallel universe? :rolleyes:

Yes! It's very strange to look around and see something that appears to be a basic part of life for everyone else just not happen for you. Even worse you see all the flaws and problems various people have and yet they still find someone. You have to listen to friends complain about how hard it was that month they were single between relationships but thankfully they have someone now and so on.

I need it to not matter to me anymore, I need to not want what I clearly can't have.

As you know by now this all goes in a cycle and at the low point you just want rid off the whole baggage. Dumping unending amounts of time and energy into something that just brings you pain is a tough sell.

It really sounds like you're doing everything right - you're putting yourself out there and meeting people. Maybe you could find more joy in the events themselves rather than heaping each one with the expectation of meeting someone?

It's also worthwhile to try and step back a bit and examine what you want and why. Looking around and seeing the whole world coupled up can make you feel abnormal and of less value than those people. It's perfectly fine to be single and happy, even while acknowledging you could be a little happier if the right person for you came along and you could share your life with them.

LegacyUser

castaway_lady wrote: »

There are definitely times when I don't get to do stuff because there's nobody to go with and I just can't face yet another day of talking to myself.

This. This is me. OP, I don't have any advice to give, because I am in the exact same situation - your post is scarily similar to something I would have posted myself - but I just wanted you to know you're not alone. I dread the weekends especially. Not only do I not have (and never had) a special person to do anything with, but I am SICK of doing stuff on my own just to get out of the house. I find no joy anymore in having all my time to myself. In fact, bizarre as it may sound, at weekends I find it easier to sit on my couch and watch tv/surf the net from the time I get up until the time I go to bed again, rather than actually go someplace and have nobody to share the experience with: 'talking to myself' as you said. Everyone I know is coupled up/married and just don't have the free time at weekends to do stuff with me (which just makes me more miserable, as doing laundry is the highlight of my weekends these days, not dinners out in town, concerts and weddings). I am also permanently single, and like you, I look around me at those who have partners and wonder 'why them and not me??' I have given up and am trying to come to terms with the fact that I am going to be the spinster aunt/cousin that relatives talk about at family do's and wonder 'did she EVER have a boyfriend?'

Sorry, reading this post back it looks like I just hijacked your thread. But I just wanted to jump in and say I know how you feel. People who have little trouble finding partners really don't understand how lonely it can be when a person is UNWILLINGLY single (as opposed to others who choose to be single). It makes a person feel crappy and unattractive to know they have never been 'chosen' by another, despite their best efforts.

Google Involuntary Celibacy - see if you identify with this. There are online resources/help available. Sometimes just reading other's stories can help - knowing that there are others out there who have absolutely no luck with the opposite sex for no apparent reason.

Best of luck. From a fellow PermaSingleton

LegacyUser

@OP I really really feel for you. I genuinely hope your luck changes. I know what it's like to have this hole in your heart as I have it too.

Not everyone gets to be charming, charismatic, beautiful to the right proportions. Your independence is a very positive trait and this makes you lucky but it can be a double edged sword.

There's lots of good advice here and I hope it's of use. I did agree with the above that maybe you've simply become too independent in your dealing with your loneliness. You don't describe yourself too well so I'm going to put it out there too that you must remember to be feminine and at any shape or size you can be stylish. You must be open to changing or improving yourself. At our age, you must make that little bit of extra effort to keep in shape. Submit yourself to your family and close friends. Ask them to help you even if it's reinforcing the positive attributes you may forget you have from time to time. Be prepared they may have to be harsh too and you must take these things on board if it's for the greater good.

One specific question; what went wrong when you tried online dating? I know how grueling an experience it can be but most women our age I know have had some degree of success with it.

pathtohome

sharper wrote: »

It's a very difficult situation to be in.

No it's not for a woman. A woman can easily just go onto a dating site and find a sincere guy.

OP if you're only going for the "sexy" types of high value guys, you are too picky and you've no right to complain.

sharper

pathtohome wrote: »

No it's not for a woman. A woman can easily just go onto a dating site and find a sincere guy.

I don't agree - it's very easy to form perceptions of people which ignore the difficulties they face.

A guy on a dating site has a problem because he's in an environment where there's between two and ten guys for every woman and women mostly don't browse or make first contact.

A woman on a dating site will likely get a lot of contact and almost certainly find it easier to go on "a date" with "some guy" but let's assume each individual woman is a little more discerning than that. They're each getting lots of mail but have almost no control over which guys contact them.

So from the male perspective of "damn it's even hard to get a reply" all the mail women get looks alluring but I don't think it is for those looking for a serious relationship. For those looking to go to dinner and have a laugh then I'm sure it's great. For everyone else it's mostly painful and a bit depressing, whether they're male or female.

I'd note pathtohome you're inserting your preconceptions into what the OP is looking for and point out what I wrote above about falling into a cycle of thinking where you make assumptions about other people's behaviour. It's extremely easy to do and when it gets going it just reinforces itself.

None of us know what the OP wants in a guy and it's certainly possible part of the problem is there - we've all known people that were oddly attracted to those they weren't very compatible with.

LegacyUser

pathtohome wrote: »

No it's not for a woman. A woman can easily just go onto a dating site and find a sincere guy.

OP if you're only going for the "sexy" types of high value guys, you are too picky and you've no right to complain.

Absolute crap, dating sites are no different than offline dating, it's still a minefield, for both men and woman. And heaven forbid a woman would want to be sexually attracted to their partner. Anyway finding a "sincere person" is irrelevant if the woman or man in question does not find that sincere person attractive or have any chemistry, spark, or common interests, lifestyles etc. relationships are not that straightforward or easy, finding a scincere person does not equal finding a relationship. Relationships and Life is not that black or white and bitterness is certainly not an attractive trait..

LegacyUser

Hi OP. I was going to type more or less what qmwnebrb said. That was what crossed my mind. Do you need to change your image? Hair, clothes, perhaps lose a few pounds?

Do you have any friends or family you would be comfortable with having a frank discussion with? I'm thinking that there might be things you do that might put people off.

Another leftfield suggestion. Your friends are all hooked up - do their boyfriends/husbands have any friends who are single? It might be an angle worth exploring.

pathtohome

Himrtrl wrote: »

Absolute crap, dating sites are no different than offline dating

Yes, I agree, it's no different than offline dating; not so good looking males have ZERO options, while below average looking females can pick from a variety of options. Females in this country have no right to complain about being "terminally single" just because they're too picky. Someone tried to suggest OP was incel (involuntary celibacy) which is an absolute insult to those of us who truly suffer from this.

sharper

pathtohome wrote: »

females can pick from a variety of options.

I would personally find having sex with/being in a relationship with someone for the sake of it much more depressing and miserable than being single.

I think it's very fair to say the OP does not feel like she has options and whether your view of women generally is correct or not it does not necessarily apply to an individual's situation.

Gooner111

Hey OP.

Your far too young to be giving up! Not having a partner when all you want is one is very hard but keep bearing with it and keep trying. If you give in and stop making any efforts then you might not meet anyone. There are loads of men who are looking for what your offering. Its just a matter of finding one.

1. Have you talked to friends.. see if they can set you up on a few blind dates????

2. Online dating... what was it that didn't work for you? Prehaps it was just that particular site... try a different ones. There are plenty of genuine men on them but you will probably need to weed out the strange ones and sex only ones.

3. Maybe your subtle hints aren't being noticed... so stop being subtle! [I envy you being able to drop subtle hints - I don't have a clue how to approach a girl in a pub or anywhere for that matter]. If you think someone likes you in return be more direct. I am 32 years old and wouldn't have a clue if I was being hit on unless she told me directly!!! Alot of men are shy enough and aren't chatup kings. You appear comfortable getting to know men so take a chance.

4. Don't settle for the first bloke that does come your way unless he ticks your boxes.

I hope you find what your looking for, good luck

snafuk35

OP its all in your head.
You are scared of commitment by the sounds of it and you just aren't taking advantage of all the opportunities around you.
You are surely able to pick up on glances you get from guys checking you out?
Have you had a man open a door or give you a wink or a smile?
Have you seen men when you were in Tesco or out walking or when you were out in a pub or clubs who you just wished would come over and talk to you?
Why don't you just go over and say hello and start a conversation?
There was a great movie on the telly the other night called Before Sunrise about a guy and girl on a train who just start talking. They get off together in Vienna and then spend the rest of the day just walking and talking and getting to know each other. Gradually they fall in love and kiss and sleep together in a park under the stars.
You just have given up and you think you can't meet anyone when more than like you have meet people who you could have been potentially happy with but just didn't pick up the opportunity.
You are just feeling sorry for yourself when if you just thought positively and actually were more proactive, you will have are more eventful love life.

LegacyUser

Most certainly do not write yourself off!!! If I had written myself off at 35 I wouldn’t have ended up in my first ever long term relationship! Anything until then had lasted no more than 6 weeks, from my first at the age of 19 to the last short-term relationship at the age of 34 (less than 10 in all).
A few months after my 35th birthday I started going out with a wonderful man. It has now been 8 months. I did not have to compromise. He is everything I ever wanted in a man. By the way, it took me two years to get his attention. My ‘subtle hints’ did not work as he, naturally, never noticed any of them. What did work was an acquaintance giving him my phone number having observed us spending an entire night chatting. (He went home early and didn’t ask for my number.) If not for her I would still be dropping him my ‘subtle hints’ and we would never have gotten together!
I had just started accepting that I was single and that that was okay when I met this guy. I had also finally started letting others know I was single. (Up until then I used to avoid all questions about men.) I had also started letting my friends know how tough it was. And I had also started accepting help from others in my quest to be in a relationship. I think those things help. Up until then I had buried my head in the sand about my situation.
Yes, it is a lonely place to be... and nobody else can understand how lonely it is except those of us who have been there.
Best of luck. And whatever you do, do not listen to those people who ‘write you off’.

castaway_lady

Thanks for all the replies for a start. I hope that I am as lucky as some of you have been.

To answer a few points, body shape, I can't complain on that score, up to neck level at least there's not much I'd change. I work out a lot and am '6pack adjacent' and healthy

Pathohome, Im familiar with the incel concept and would consider myself incel- not celibate by choice. Your post did make me feel better about myself though because you seem deeply bitter towards women, I feel exactly the opposite about men, I love the company of those I spend time with, even platonic-ally. Labeling me as "too picky" and is a huge snap judgement, like everyone else Im attracted to what Im attracted to and actually rarely attracted to anyone before getting to know them a bit....which is pretty normal guys actually, that's what I consider "high value".

"I would personally find having sex with/being in a relationship with someone for the sake of it much more depressing and miserable than being single"
- agreed Sharper

Snafuk, after 35 years of being single, I honestly don't have the balls to walk up to random guys in bars or Tesco....how could I have any reason to be that confident? Not many women would be. But it would be great if life was like the movies wouldn't it.

I don't talk to friends or family about it all. Maybe I should but it's the last thing that I want to draw attention to. I don't want it to be their prevailing view of me or be their project. I want normality and to be able to relate to them on a level playing field for once.

All in all a work in progress I suppose?!

sharper

castaway_lady wrote: »

I honestly don't have the balls to walk up to random guys in bars or Tesco....how could I have any reason to be that confident?

You don't have to walk upto anyone - a few seconds of eye contact and a friendly smile will do just fine to signal you're interested (or friendly, this is where guys get severely confused and arguably rightly so).

Whatever you might think of how people view you nobody anywhere is going to feel anything except a small thrill that someone smiled at them. In 99.99991% of cases nothing else will happen but it's a small investment anyway. It might also help your confidence.

This is an area where women do have an advantage - you can use absolutely any situation to put out mild signals of interest and see if anyone will respond. Guys trying this will get in trouble when someone takes it the wrong way or feels threatened.

bjak

Hi Castaway Lady.

I doubt that your mother has really written you off.

Not all guys are confident alpha males who saunter up to any woman of the same age with a pulse and try to "pull" her. Many are shy, reserved and lacking in self confidence. Many fear rejection or are concerned at outcomes if you do date and then it falls apart, particularly if its in a work situation and are 35 plus. Other guys simply never get or even see the hint in the first place. Is there the possibility that you are not picking up the signals? - I ask as a signal misser myself in the past.

Even those who exude confidence may bottle it when it comes to asking someone specific out. Surprisingly its sometimes easier make the approach if its to someone unknown rather than someone you know and really fancy.And that seems to get worse as you get older.

I met a professional guy on holidays, mid 30's, Private pilots licence, high end car, etc. etc. Seemed to have all the advantages. He had only gone out with one lady ever and she had asked him out. He fancied a lady in our skiing group and I had to prep talk him into how to even start speaking with her. Yet superficially you would expect him to be constantly dating.

Others have been through difficult times and do not want to date for fear of being hurt.

So what can you do? Whats stopping you asking a guy out even if its to meet for coffee as a start? It doesn't have to be a randomer on the street but if you get into conversation,"find" you have another appointment and suggest meet up again. Its happened to me and I'm no George Clooney.

What activities are you involved in or can you adopt new ones that will bring you into contact with eligible candidates? Tag rugby, hillwalking with a club, Amateur drama group, Wine tasting classes can be a hoot as can dancing - then again the male/female ratio may be against you in dancing.

You mention you like to travel - are language classes / conversational groups an option?

Would a meetup group be of any use to gain a social circle. You are not alone in feeling that you are alone.

You have to get out of the house at weekends, even if just to a movie or you will end up talking to the wall.

I hope this has not been patronising. I have been on my own for a while so I do know how you feel.

Best of luck

BJAK

Mouldy Mary

The best thing to do is wear skirts more often. I have a niece who was in the same position. She cut out wearing jeans and black trousers. She started wearing good skirts (not black) in good colours. She started being noticed almost immediately and had two guys chasing her within three months. She has been in a steady relationship for the last two years and I expect wedding bells anytime.

dellas1979

I think people who have partners do have a sort of social crutch that they take for granted. "Want to go to the cinema? Sure lets see whats on". Automatic.

For singletons, especially of an older variety, friends, family etc have "moved" on with partners/babies etc to preoccupy them, so it can get a little lonely for the singleton to keep having to "organise" things, sometimes well in advance - almost "booking" the person. It is not automatic.

Anyways-you are 35! Are you going to be proactive in putting yourself out there? Will you be looking back at 40 wondering "I should have done more when I was 35?". Yes, it doesnt happen for some people as for others, but you should not be giving up! You should just be comfortable with what you have, while dreaming of something more for yourself. We all do that. And sometimes dreams do come true! But dreams never come true if you are not prepared to work on making them come true.

There are alot of suggestions on here - not magic answers. There are so many people in the same boat as you! One of my friends recently married a month before her 40th birthday. She was comfortable with the fact she was single after years of looking. She had resigned herself to "this is my life", not in a "poor me" way - she was just happy in herself, but she never gave up her dream of meeting a lovely guy. And then she met him, at 38. So, it can happen and it is possible. Having a negative attitude will make it impossible.

jimbo79

castaway_lady wrote: »

What would you do if the following was your life story?
- 35 female, never been in a relationship or had any interest from men
- almost completely inexperienced at intimacy
- get on great with men in every other way
- they talk to me about mutual interests but they date other women (mostly prettier versions)
- tried the usual ream of advice: join a gym, clubs of interest, take classes, online dating.......

I managed to spend a good while distracting myself with studies, career, interests etc etc but low and behold they don't work anymore.

Pubs and clubs were never my thing as Im not a drinker, but at this stage I don't even have any single friends to go out with. Even in the company of women I feel like Im always on the periphery looking in at their coupled lives and experiences while hoping that my lack of anything doesn't crop up.

Every day I suck it up and do a great job of convincing the world Im a happy. productive camper which isn't the case even though I do lots of activities and involvements that I enjoy. I feel like I've missed out on so much and I envy siblings and friends and even my parents who are in happy relationships, making plans etc etc.

I have no reason to believe that I'll ever get a shot at what I want and at this stage just wish that I could find some kind of acceptance that this is it. But even physically Im so frustrated and crave physical contact- even though I only have an imaginary perception of what Im missing? Even my mother has me written off!

Has anyone got their head around being in the same position?

p.s. Please don't post if all you have to say is any of the following:
- men are like buses....etc
- stop looking and you'll find it
- online dating is the mecca (been there, tried it several times, not going there again)

some of the dating sites are better than others, i have used them they are grand some have forums too where you can sus them out before you date them.

to be honest if your attitude is not right it will never work anywhere, you say you have never had any interest from men, maybe you just didn't notice it.

castaway_lady

Mouldy Mary wrote: »

The best thing to do is wear skirts more often. I have a niece who was in the same position. She cut out wearing jeans and black trousers. She started wearing good skirts (not black) in good colours. She started being noticed almost immediately and had two guys chasing her within three months. She has been in a steady relationship for the last two years and I expect wedding bells anytime.

If this is the "cure" im going to vomit

WhyGoBald

Well, you also need to learn how not to give too many opinions. Men don't like girls with opinions, you know. (Sorry Mary, couldn't resist.)

castaway, from your first post you don't sound very happy with your life. Is that entirely down to your single status?

castaway_lady

I was probably in particularly poor form when writing the initial post. I wouldn't say Im unhappy with life in general. I can recognise the positives readily; good job that Ive worked hard to get to and that I like, im healthy, my family members are healthy after a few tough years in that department (I think that's also made me very conscious of what I want in my life), financially Im doing fine, I have interests and things that Im involved in that matter a lot to me.

Regarding the love life aspect, Im curious, envious, stuck and frustrated and yea the way things are at this stage does put some limitations on life. By nature and by profession I'm a problem solver and my inability to solve this for myself leaves me fairly frustrated. I like the company of men, genuinely get on well with them, I dunno maybe too well I think sometimes closer to being one of the lads and not seen as girlfriend material? And after all that it's in the back of my mind that if I met someone tomorrow there's such a huge experience gap there that's a whole new problem....a nicer one to have I think though!

fits

Many people with less advantages than you have partners. Its not them (the world etc), its you. If you figure out whats going on maybe you can solve it. I dont think online dating or wearing a skirt :rolleyes: are a solution in this case.

I went for years without a partner, partly I think because I thought anyone who would be low enough to fancy me, wasnt good enough for me. Then I spent far too long with someone who was really wrong for me for the same reasons. Terrible self esteem issues.

So, why aren't you open to it?

ongarboy

castaway_lady wrote: »

I was probably in particularly poor form when writing the initial post. I wouldn't say Im unhappy with life in general. I can recognise the positives readily; good job that Ive worked hard to get to and that I like, im healthy, my family members are healthy after a few tough years in that department (I think that's also made me very conscious of what I want in my life), financially Im doing fine, I have interests and things that Im involved in that matter a lot to me.

Regarding the love life aspect, Im curious, envious, stuck and frustrated and yea the way things are at this stage does put some limitations on life. By nature and by profession I'm a problem solver and my inability to solve this for myself leaves me fairly frustrated. I like the company of men, genuinely get on well with them, I dunno maybe too well I think sometimes closer to being one of the lads and not seen as girlfriend material? And after all that it's in the back of my mind that if I met someone tomorrow there's such a huge experience gap there that's a whole new problem....a nicer one to have I think though!

It's a hard one to give advice as you sound like a fine, normal, well adjusted girl and there is no obvious reason why you haven't had or have a significant other only that it just hasn't happened. I know many wonderful people of more mature years who are single and I really don't think it's down to the fact they give off some negative vibe. I think for some, it just doesn't happen and maybe it is down to luck for those that it does happen to. I know that may not be what you want to hear, OP.

I think what is important is that you maximise the enjoyment of your life based on what you can do or control. Wishing for something you don't have right now or have no absolute control over making it happen will and already is having a detrimental effect on you. I would recommend you still continue with maximising social opportunities so that you meet as many new people as possible. I believe that when someone is surrounded by close friends, they should never feel lonely. It is through these outlets that you may meet that special someone.

There is still no harm in being proactive however, so I know it sounds cliched but why not try (or give another go to) speed dating, singles nights or weekends or salsa dancing classes (where you've no choice but to have a man whirl you around!). I wouldn't worry about your lack of experience. Any decent, genuine guy will not be turned off or freaked out by that and it's important you don't have a hang up about it yourself as it could be the hang up you may have that would turn guys off. My brother got married almost 10 years ago in his 30s and had zero past girlfriend experience. He has the most wonderful wife and 3 beautiful children now so it does happen. Best of luck!

bren0803

First and foremost you sound like an intelligent caring person.
I think your situation has absorbed you and is bringing out your negative side.
Move away and reinvent yourself , come back with a new man for a wedding and surprise them all !

Good Luck

LegacyUser

Hi OP,
I can sympathise with your situation. I am 52 male and also never been in a serious relationship.I do not lack self confidence, am fit , well and look better than 90% of men my age.I have been very successful in my business and have no financial worries.
Why am I single?? . I am single because I set the bar way too high and instead of looking for Miss Right was looking for Miss Perfect. Many women I know are the same and Mr. Perfect doesn't exist.
I am not saying you need to settle for some beer bellied couch potato who has no interests apart from Page 3 & football . There are plenty of really decent men out there , who are shy and tired of the endless rejection. I just wouldn't be bothered asking an attractive, professional girl out as they all seem to be waiting for their consultant plastic surgeon or airline pilot to come along. If you spot someone you like , ask straight out are you married single or seeing someone. If he is free, then just go and ask him on a day out and you would be amazed at what could happen.
I am now very relaxed and happy in my single life and looking at the pro's and con's I doubt if would ever be happy any other way.
Hope this is of help to you.

LegacyUser

@OP when you've loitered around PI and other places on Boards where these types of questions come up as long as I have, you learn one thing. By the time you get to your thirties, the cheerleaders have married all the quarterbacks and some of the best of us are still on the shelf. It can be more complicated for us as we get older but one thing is for sure; your perfect guy is out there thinking EXACTLY the same thing wondering where to find someone like you. You sound really perfectly lovely. I hate the term and it's not my place to apply it to you but I love the tomboy type girls who wear jeans, slag the guys and still have a sensitive side.

BraziliaNZ

Some people just don't meet partners, I'd say it would be a far greater number if people didn't settle for a relationship they're not really happy with.
I've kind of thrown in the towel at 32, but it's not the end of the world is it? You seem to be doing fine, you sound like a good person, I'd be pretty sure you'll meet someone sooner or later but not everyone does unfortunately.

bjak

Another Guest wrote: »

I just wouldn't be bothered asking an attractive, professional girl out as they all seem to be waiting for their consultant plastic surgeon or airline pilot to come along.

I don't think the type of "girl" you are referring is just waiting for their consultant or pilot to come along - more like they seem to actively target them, single or not.

I would keep as far as possible away from the type of person but would not tar all professionals with the same brush.

jellygems

Another Guest wrote: »

Hi OP,
I can sympathise with your situation. I am 52 male and also never been in a serious relationship.I do not lack self confidence, am fit , well and look better than 90% of men my age.I have been very successful in my business and have no financial worries.
Why am I single?? . I am single because I set the bar way too high and instead of looking for Miss Right was looking for Miss Perfect. Many women I know are the same and Mr. Perfect doesn't exist.
I am not saying you need to settle for some beer bellied couch potato who has no interests apart from Page 3 & football . There are plenty of really decent men out there , who are shy and tired of the endless rejection. I just wouldn't be bothered asking an attractive, professional girl out as they all seem to be waiting for their consultant plastic surgeon or airline pilot to come along. If you spot someone you like , ask straight out are you married single or seeing someone. If he is free, then just go and ask him on a day out and you would be amazed at what could happen.
I am now very relaxed and happy in my single life and looking at the pro's and con's I doubt if would ever be happy any other way.
Hope this is of help to you.

I was married to a pilot and id run a mile if i knew a guy was one now!!!! Im single and not waiting for any man just enjoying my freedom and having a gay auld time

gypsy_rose

This debate over whether the OP is enduring forced celibacy or not is silly and I'm sick of reading about it, stop going on about it, you're not helping.

Now, since I don't want to repeat the advice of everyone else, I will say this. Dating and relationships, in my opinion, are things you learn how to do. I learned when I was a teenager when I was being too clingy or too forward or not flirtatious enough to communicate my interest. You haven't been so lucky in this regard and therefore may need to learn a bit more how to flirt etc., not that it's that hard once you get it. I really would strongely advise that you keep up the internet dating, not neccessarily to find someone you could be in a relationship with, but to learn how to act and gain confidence. I'm not saying you're acting inappropriately or anything of the sort, but there's certain things you become more comfortable with over time, like maintaining eye contact and giving a bit of gentle slagging and banter to break the ice.
If you're still having problems, and I really hope you don't take offence to this, would you be for a few counselling sessions? Maybe with a relationship therapist? Our minds need upkeep just as much as our bodies and you never know how much a bit of talking about it could help.

All the best.

mood

pathtohome wrote: »

Yes, I agree, it's no different than offline dating; not so good looking males have ZERO options, while below average looking females can pick from a variety of options. Females in this country have no right to complain about being "terminally single" just because they're too picky. Someone tried to suggest OP was incel (involuntary celibacy) which is an absolute insult to those of us who truly suffer from this.

Rubbish. I know some guys who are not traditionally good looking but because they are very nice they all have VERY attractive girlfriends/wifes. Just because a female is single it doesn't mean she is too picky.

mood

whiskey_bar wrote: »

<banned>

I have attractive sisters, cousins and friends who are in relationships/married nice guys.

Wink

whiskey_bar wrote: »

<banned>

Every single time.

OP, I'm in the same position as you. I've been in short term relationships but none have lasted over a year. I'm 30 and I think my role in life is to be the cool aunt, or the one that's going to be the life of a hen party or the one who organises nights out and weekends away. I am desperately trying not to let it matter, or to accept it. My MO is to fill my time, keep in touch with friends, say yea to every invitation & everytime I feel down I just tell myself that life is ok without being in a relationship. It just doesn't happen for some people.

EdenHazard

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Some people just don't meet partners, I'd say it would be a far greater number if people didn't settle for a relationship they're not really happy with.
I've kind of thrown in the towel at 32, but it's not the end of the world is it? You seem to be doing fine, you sound like a good person, I'd be pretty sure you'll meet someone sooner or later but not everyone does unfortunately.

I've seen you and your a good looking dude(no homo)

OP your like me I've never been with anybody and I don't see it happening anytime soon!

Taltos

Can I remind posters to review our charter.
Off topic posts or those not offering constructive advice are against the rules and will result in mod action up to and including a ban.

Thanks
Taltos

,mnb

For those saying you're too fussy or its easy for girls. They are making wild assumptions. I'm sure it's easy for a girl to get sex on a dating site but most girls don't want that and you don't want that.
To give you a male perspective. I'm male, late 30s, definitely good looking enough to be in a relationship (not that there is any minimum threshold), good career, good friends though the circle is getting smaller in ways BUT I haven't had a proper committed relationship in over 15 years. The only few girls I've really fancied in those years were not interested in me. I'll be deadly honest and say it comes down to self esteem for me. I don't truely believe I have something to offer a woman such that she could love me. In work situations I believe I have something to offer. In family situations the same. But when it comes to women I don't ever really think that any woman sees me and thinks hes cute or hes attractive. It's a work in progress but its hard to shift.

castaway_lady

Can associate with most of that. I have no concept of me being part of the relationship world, I don't feel like I understand anything about it at this stage of my life. I know what I think I have to offer, but that's proven time after time after time never to be what anyone wanted and it's damn hard to maintain self-esteem specific to feeling attractive even if your overall self-esteem isn't bargain basement.

I've thought a fair bit about it all since posting here, I know Im never going to go near online dating again for sure. Beyond luck I can't see a pathway in my life to what I want and I've never felt like that about any area of life before, feeling powerless isn't nice. Im tired of hearing about peoples relationships/ plans etc....I actually have no response to what they're talking about- none! It all just sits in my head these days, I go and do my stuff....I dutifully perform at work, I fix problems for my family, I go to the sports club and the gym and then I go home and lie down alone again & again & again and circumnavigate the issue inside my head but I don't get to the solution or a plan of action and weeks and months just pass me by wondering.

It's tough to feel just like deadwood but sure I suppose nobody ever said life was easy! *shrugs*

thefeatheredcat

OP I see traces of myself in you through your posts... you've mentioned you're a problem solver and you've mentioned that you do fix things for your family. You don't come across to me as really that there's anything wrong with you, the only thing probably I picked up is that possibly that some people might see that you're too good for them; you are successful, accomplished, kind and caring, you look after those you care about, you look after yourself and are independent, you come across as a general well rounded individual who is confident and can get on with anyone and can hold conversations with men as people and not men (if you know what I mean, you like me could probably talk about sci fi or astronomy or whatever topic of conversation with a guy for hours on a platonic level as a person, rather than feel you need to present yourself as a girl talking to a boy). Perhaps too, maybe because you're easy for men to get on with that you're overlooked for being female as you're accepted in general by them without having to be validated as being female?

But going back to you being a problem solver... I think that's part of it, you want to solve this and it frustrates you that you can't. I think it's a case of having to realise you can't solve this one alone, not without outside help like being set up or talking about it with family. I can and have solved others problems and general problems for other people in life, I can never solve my own problems and issues (but often find a half solution in helping someone else) for myself, because half the time I don't know where to start as I can see better from the outside in solving problems others have, I can see things that they can't because they're too close to the situation and the issue, but myself I'm too close to the issue I try to solve for myself and get nowhere. Maybe it's the same for yourself?

While the issue is a big one for you, how high a priority do you give to resolving the issue itself? Maybe it is worth literally taking the time out to dedicate to it for a while so that you're actually proactive about it with a plan and treat it as priority?

....and I wouldn't write off asking randomers either and it may be that is something worth trying if not to find a connection, even if it does not last, but to inspire your confidence to not give up while actively trying to find meaning in your life on that scale?

ladiesman216

Op I empathise with your situation, I've been single the past 2 years now, in my late twenties and can't seem to click with anyone of the opposite sex!
I HATE the whole nightclub scoring aspect to trying to meet someone too. It's just not me, I take rejection really badly so I don't even bother trying really even though most lads will tell you it's a numbers game and a lot of the guys that score a lot get rejected a lot.
I think there are plenty of guys out there like me. You sound like a girl I would love to get to know but the chances are if I saw you in a pub I wouldn't just walk up to you so my advice to you would be if you see a guy in a pub that you like, catch his eye once or twice, maybe smile in a subtle way, then when he's at the bar you go to the bar beside him, If he's interested he'll try and start a conversation, there's no pressure on either of ye and there's a quick and easy get away...drinks are ready.

This has never happened me but in my head this is how I think it would be most natural in the otherwise ultra forced 'shifting' scene. It takes the whole 'approach' out if it, which I find the hardest part.

I know there are way better ways of meeting someone but I'm giving my opinion based on the fact that you said you tried joining clubs etc. and I'm presuming you still would go to pubs.

You sound like a really nice person Op, and I know it's difficult to remain positive when you feel your missing out but remember when you go into any busy pub thers's probably a couple of decent guys like me looking to meet a girl like you.....they just need a little indication that they might have a chance!

By the way my username is ironic!

LegacyUser

Im not sure that the issue the OP has is the lack of opportunities to meet men, it is the lack of interest shown by the men she does meet is the problem. Im in much the same age bracket and situation as yourself op and Im at a loss at how to solve it. I haven't gone down the online dating route yet but it appears to be the only option left and Im not overjoyed at the prospect of it to be honest. One thing I have come to learn is how much emphasis men appear to place on a womans looks. Despite what men say it is from what I have observed the deciding factor in their choice of partner. I think men (and women but to a lesser extent) have massive expectations in terms of how their prospective partner should look these days compared with say 20 or even 10 years ago. Also you say that you have shown inititaive in approaching men by letting them know you are inetersted but its got you nowhere.....me too. As a very laid back, easy going girl, with what I would say average looks Im not sure where it leaves me. What I have decided though is that finding a partner is not meant for me right now and Im not going to chew myself up thinking about it every day. I know I have a lot to offer, so do you, it will just take a little longer to get to that point...and until then make the most out of life, out of your talents and the great people around you. Don't regret all that time you wasted on something over which you actually have very little control over. I think the volume of feedback you have received indicates how common this is (more than you think) and that people wish you well.

sharper

skyfall wrote: »

I haven't gone down the online dating route yet but it appears to be the only option left and Im not overjoyed at the prospect of it to be honest.

It's worth checking out the online dating thread on here for some idea of what to expect. Basically it's not much different to dating via any other means, for good or for bad. It's a useful opportunity to get a better idea of what's out there for you, no more or less.

LegacyUser

castaway_lady wrote: »

I know Im never going to go near online dating again for sure.

I say fair play to you for that. Stick to your guns and dont let anybody tell you that you should do internet dating, speed dating etc. You've already given it a go, its not your thing. End of story.

castaway_lady wrote: »

Im tired of hearing about peoples relationships/ plans etc....I actually have no response to what they're talking about- none!

Maybe things are different for women in that other women will talk about their relationships and partners a fair bit. I can understand how that would be difficult. Im a man and all my friends are married or in long term relationships and honestly, they rarely talk about their wives/girlfriends. So maybe single men get the better end of that deal.

I was single for about 3 years and in that time I struggled to come to terms with it. Its like all around you everybody is coupled up and has someone they can rely on. Looking at it that way made it something to long for. But then I met a girl and got back in the game. At first I was delighted, I no longer felt like I was on the outside, that there was this club I had been excluded from but now I was allowed in. But pretty soon I realised something, that my previous single life had been pretty damn good, I just couldnt see it because in society you're led to believe that being in a couple is the way to go and being single is something to be avoided. Even though thats whats being peddeled via the media, movies, books etc, personally I didnt buy it. And its not because I hadnt met the right person, she was lovely and I really liked her. Being in a relationship just seemed overhyped. It made me realise I was grand not being part of a couple, that so much of what people do in life is an effort just to fit in and try to do what others do just so that dont feel different or left out. But thats more going away from something as opposed to going towards something. I broke off the relationship and went back to my previous life but this time with a way better attitude. The irony is I got a lot of attention from women, a lot more than I got before. I feel in control of things like if I wanted I could start a relationship at any time, but I just dont want to right now, my life is pretty good as is and I dont want to complicate things.

Anyway if you want a relationship thats ok but dont put too much stock in it. I know its a cliche and all but if you're not happy out of a relationship you wont be happy in one. Being in a relationship is kind of like a bonus not the main game. Have a good look at your life, what do you do with yourself outside of work and the gym? Have you got a purpose in life, something you strive towards? For me thats a big one. I have a few things I wanna achieve in life and it gives me purpose and direction, which just seems to fill me up. I just think your issue is internal OP, it seems like you're looking for answers in the wrong places i.e. in other people or the prospect of a relationship.

castaway_lady

todaysguest wrote: »

I know its a cliche and all but if you're not happy out of a relationship you wont be happy in one. Being in a relationship is kind of like a bonus not the main game. Have a good look at your life, what do you do with yourself outside of work and the gym? Have you got a purpose in life, something you strive towards? For me thats a big one. I have a few things I wanna achieve in life and it gives me purpose and direction, which just seems to fill me up. I just think your issue is internal OP, it seems like you're looking for answers in the wrong places i.e. in other people or the prospect of a relationship.

Yep I have a purpose in life, lots in my diary every week, things Id like to achieve...and knowing what its like not to be single for even 5minutes of my life is one of them :rolleyes: Maybe you're right, maybe I would prefer being single...but the thing is I don't get to test that theory, you did- lucky you. And if relationships aren't worth having then why does the vast majority of the world pursue it? Where exactly is the right place to look for answers? If I could have my hormones removed I would, then I wouldn't have a stupid biological motivator that I can't satisfy.

Skyfall you're right, it's not a lack of being around men....I was in the presence of 60 of them last weekend and that's not unusual stats.
But I know I may as well be invisible in that regard.

Logically I know that I need to find a way to not have it matter to me, but I can't tap into that anymore, I used to pack other things onto the priority list but that just doesn't work these days, the motivation isn't there, frustration is!

beks101

It's a cliche of course, but my experience of meeting someone has been that it happens when you have really, honestly, genuinely put it to the back of your brain and bottom of your priorities list.

I'm in my late 20s and spent most of my life single until recently - single and obsessed with it. I made excuses for it, I felt shame for it, I felt I had to cover it up, I felt it meant people would think there was something wrong with me, I felt I wasn't 'relationship material', Jesus, I remember a few times I invented 'exes' just to fit in with everyone else. I felt I'd end up alone forever, yadda yadda yadda. It's a long list and comprised 100% of negative, self-destructive thoughts about myself and my life and you can just imagine the kind of vibes I must have been giving to the people around me. I didn't feel 'enough' by myself. And I wondered then why the singledom persisted :rolleyes:

It's Dating 101 stuff that people are attracted to confident, outgoing, happy people. OK, we all know that. What is so easy to lose awareness of when you're long-term single though is the fact that that feeling of 'lacking' in you, translates to a shaky, nervous, insecure, self-conscious, unapproachable sometimes aloof, sometimes miserable demeanour. I am none of those things; never have been - always had lots of friends, well-liked by people. But looking back on my interactions with men, social occasions when people typically meet someone like talking to strangers in the pub, meeting male friends of friends etc...that's the image I projected. Because it was always on my radar. 'Oh here we go again, last woman standing again tonight' or 'loads of men...all any of them will want is sex because I'm not 'relationship material''.

About a year ago I got seriously sick of my own negative inner dialogue and decided, fcuk it, if I'm gonna be on my own forever I may as well drop the men stress and enjoy myself, and the male attention escalated. Because I was being me, not some poor desperate girl who obsesses over who's looking at her in any room she walks into or cares about whether or not she 'scores' at any given social event. Just me. Meeting new people. Making new friends.

Now, you don't sound like a miserable person. You sound like you've a lot going for yourself. But take a look at the negative thoughts that you're feeding yourself. Even the thread title, 'terminally single.' Is it a disease now? A horrible affliction that you'll suffer through for the rest of your days? No. It's the state you came into this world in and to this point in your life, it's the more natural state for you than being in a relationship. Embrace yourself. Look within yourself, not outside of yourself. There's too much to you to undersell yourself because you don't have a man walking beside you.

Distorted

Another Guest wrote: »

There are plenty of really decent men out there , who are shy and tired of the endless rejection. I just wouldn't be bothered asking an attractive, professional girl out as they all seem to be waiting for their consultant plastic surgeon or airline pilot to come along.

Since you're missing out on a high proportion of decent women who simply want to work and be capable of paying their own rent, probably not the best strategy for avoiding singledom...

OP, what I have seen women who are not perhaps the type the guys flock do, is that they target men and flatter them and move in their social circles. Its almost like picking out their prey. They don't seem to be easily put off by rejection or competition. Its like they almost make a project of it. And it nearly always seems to work, even when the man seems quite reluctant initially!

Either that or dedicated internet dating - apparantly the trick is not to waste loads of time messaging but arrange a quick coffee date and move on to the next one if no good, apparently its a numbers game...