Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Pregnancy isn't necessarily a consequence of sex. You're arguing that abortion shouldn't be allowed because it removes pregnancy as a consequence of sex. Using that same logic, should contraception not be banned? If your sole objection to abortion is that it leads to diminished consequences of sex, then should you not also object to contraception? As far as I can tell, insofar as abortion removes consequences, contraception has much the same effect. No?

Zombrex

christmas2012 wrote: »

Sex does have consequences its called pregnancy

You were asked why it should have consequence of having a child. If I can have sex with a condom and not get my gf pregnant why is that bad?

You might as well argue we shouldn't provide seat belts because crashing your car should have the consequence of killing you, how else are you going to learn :rolleyes:

You want people to needlessly suffer simply so they learn about suffering.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

as a fellow member of the fair sex im not obsessed with women being punished where have i said that,youre reading into things that simply arent there!

You kind of are, though. Are you as hardline with the guys who get these girls pregnant. Do you think child support should come out of their benefits/wages, and they should be banned from moving out of the country til the kid turns 18?

iguana

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Personally I'd like to see males granted the right to 'abort' their legal responsibilities as well should it become legal. Just as women can be not ready for parenthood so can males.

Off topic but it might be best for your argument if you didn't use the word 'abort' when describing that issue as it's not at all an accurate comparison. A better argument would be to want men to have the same rights re adoption that women have. A woman can put her child up for adoption and if he wants to the father can adopt the child. This ensures that she has no more parental responsibility if she feels that she isn't ready for parenthood but equally she has no rights either. Men should have the same right if they don't want to be a parent. A legal procedure that allows men to give up all present and future parental rights and responsibilities to the mother if that's what he really wants.

krudler

christmas2012 wrote: »

abortion should be for ALL..I believe that to be totally wrong wrong wrong,as it sends out the wrong message to people having sex,saying there are no consequences you dont have to grow up and face the music..

abortion should only be for suicidal/rape victims,and those who dont want to rear handicapped or those incompatible with life..

Contraception (which btw the church and youth defence also oppose) isnt 100%, so if someone takes precautions and it fails for whatever reason, and there are plenty of reasons it can't work, then oh well, tough for you? maybe everyone should start praying their unborn kids are going to be disabled, then its ok to abort them in your eyes?

MagicMarker

krudler wrote: »

Contraception (which btw the church and youth defence also oppose) isnt 100%, so if someone takes precautions and it fails for whatever reason, and there are plenty of reasons it can't work, then oh well, tough for you? maybe everyone should start praying their unborn kids are going to be disabled, then its ok to abort them in your eyes?

It seems Christmas2012 is okay with abortion if it's "half retard/ugly/schizo or downs or incompatible with life"

Yup, abortions for ALL the ugly babies.

Zombrex

Ah, looks like we are being trolled then.

I was wondering, given how moronic the argument is.

Sulla Felix

Nodin wrote: »

It's already been voted on.

It has. I predict another however. Methinks the Dail will wimp out and rather than legislate, we'll hear in the coming months that it really is an issue that the people should decide, and that the last ref was so long ago, a whole new generation etc etc.

marienbad

Sulla Felix wrote: »

It has. I predict another however. Methinks the Dail will wimp out and rather than legislate, we'll hear in the coming months that it really is an issue that the people should decide, and that the last ref was so long ago, a whole new generation etc etc.

Can't see another referendum on this . There will be allparty agreement on some wording and abstensions left right and centre but it will pass into law.

It is in everyones interest to get shut of it and now is a better time that most when there are much greater issues taking the headlines.

Penn

Source: http://www.mediacontact.ie/mediahq/ionainstitute/37301/minister-rabbittes-comments-on-church-and-state-deeply-undemocratic.html

Iona Institute wrote:

Minister Rabbitte’s comments on Church and State 'deeply undemocratic'

August 26, 2012 - Reacting to Cardinal Brady’s comment today that the Church might lobby politicians on the issue of abortion, Minister Pat Rabbitte said it would be a “retrograde” step if the Church started “dictating” to politicians again.

However, Minister Rabbitte’s remark is really an attempt to rob the Church of the democratic right to lobby.

Responding to the remarks, Dr John Murray of The Iona Institute said: “It is Minister Rabbitte’s comment that is actually retrograde. First of all, lobbying is not the same as dictating.

“Secondly, why should business organisations, or farming organisations, or trades unions be allowed to lobby politicians but the Churches cannot do this?”

He continued: “Seeking to deny the Churches, and their members, the same right as belongs to every other group in society is deeply undemocratic”.

Dr Murray noted: “The Catholic Church in Ireland is actually quite unusual in not having professional lobbyists working in parliament full-time. The Scottish hierarchy has a full-time lobbyist, for example. The bishops of Europe jointly have a full-time political office in Brussels”.

He concluded: “The Catholic Church in Ireland, far from having the right to lobby denied it, should in fact lobby far more often and more professionally than it does.”

Once again, another OTT claim by the Iona Institute. Rabbitte wasn't saying that the Church shouldn't lobby, or don't have the right to lobby; he was saying that years ago if the Church told politicians to do something, they generally did, and that a return to that would be a backwards step in society.

Typical case of "We're being persecuted! Our opinions are being oppressed!" No, they aren't. They're just going to be given the same weight as the opinions of everyone else with no special treatment.

As for the last line about how they should lobby more often and more professionally, that's worrying, but I can definitely see it happening if they don't get their way with the abortion stuff. They'll be a lot more aggressive in trying to cut out anything they don't like.

Then again, I disagree with lobbying in general but that's a whole different matter.

Dave!

christmas2012 wrote: »

no abortion is no consequence they can scratch pregnancy out of their lives..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it you who was posting before about how traumatic abortion is, and how it can lead to all manner of psychological damage for the woman?

With this in mind, how can you say that abortion is "no consequence", and use a term like "scratch" in reference to a serious medical procedure which is pretty much never taken lightly?

christmas2012

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it you who was posting before about how traumatic abortion is, and how it can lead to all manner of psychological damage for the woman?

With this in mind, how can you say that abortion is "no consequence", and use a term like "scratch" in reference to a serious medical procedure which is pretty much never taken lightly?

Thats the thing women seem to think they can scratch the problem out of their lives,but wait till they get to the painful procedure and aftermath and its only then they realise they have been cheated.

maybe everyone should start praying their unborn kids are going to be disabled, then its ok to abort them in your eyes?

and..exactly where did i say pray they are all disabled or incompatible with life,btw im not a religious person so stop making assumptions and bad judgments on me..

You might as well argue we shouldn't provide seat belts because crashing your car should have the consequence of killing you, how else are you going to learn

bad analogoy if it was a case of the seat belt before the car crash that would be contraception to my mind and why would you equate pregnancy giving life with a car crash thats half the problem pregnancy is seen as something negative,this is why abortion will become so popular..

UDP

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats the thing women seem to think they can scratch the problem out of their lives,but wait till they get to the painful procedure and aftermath and its only then they realise they have been cheated.

Everything is explained to those seeking an abortion beforehand.

christmas2012

not everything,and no they dont talk you through it - they ask you for a few hundred sterling before you walk into the clinic to wait for an hour or two the clinics are packed as ever,and not everyone in that room has made the right decision..there are a few exceptions rape victims,incest victims,those who bear handicaps,and those incompatible with life etc,but abortion for everyone is not the right message to send out,it sends out a message you can do what you want and not face consequences,sooner or later it will catch up with them by way of std or what not..
it encourages the wrong attitude towards sex.

Sarky

And what is the correct attitude towards sex?

Dave!

What are you basing this on? As I understand it, as with any significant medical intervention, women are fully briefed on the abortion procedure, and given all of the relevant information about potential health problems and emotional/psychological distress that can result. I imagine any reputable clinic that carries out the procedure would also offer information on therapists.

Nobody skips into an abortion clinic with a smile on their face, only to later discover that it's actually a horrible and invasive procedure. Certainly the overwhelming majority do not.

UDP

Sarky wrote: »

And what is the correct attitude towards sex?

I would also love to hear the answer to this.

robindch

Sarky wrote: »

And what is the correct attitude towards sex?

45 degrees is a good one to start with.

aidan24326

UDP wrote: »

I don't think they will have much impact on those under 40 and I would imagine the damage they have caused to themselves over the past few years re abuse will hurt their persuading powers greatly.

You'd think it ought to. But their persuading powers haven't gone away just yet. On the wane for sure though, thankfuly.

It's actually galling that an organisation that has done so much wrong in this country (and others) still feels they can tell us what to do.

Yes they do have a democratic right to lobby, as per the Iona Institute's defence of their position. However, lobbying has never really been what they're about has it? Dictating is what they like to do.

On the issue of abortion their views are so clouded by religious dogma as to make their position on the subject irrelevant imo. It's a matter for medical science and law to deal with. Theology doesn't really have anything useful to add (does it ever?)

christmas2012

Nobody skips into an abortion clinic with a smile on their face, only to later discover that it's actually a horrible and invasive procedure.

Some do breeze into abortion clinics thinking this is a problem i can scratch out of my life,i have an OPTION etc,but it does turn out to be a horribly invasive procedure,and they dont give you general anaesthetic they give you concious sedation..so it is very traumatic for a young girl or woman to go through of any age..

And what is the correct attitude towards sex?

practising safe sex,and not getting abortion on demand if you get pregnant face the music,have an attitude of genuine maturity when it comes to sex,you and your partner,face the music if needs be..

Sarky

That's a pretty lousy and uninformed attitude. Would you consider getting a better one?

Sin City

have to say im against abortion myself , except.in extreme circumstances . just to add that my.opinion has no religious ideology or teaching behind it . The.whole , you should be against condom etc if.you are against abortion is a red herring in so far as the potential
person was deprived.of a vital ingredient to become a person , the female egg

Penn

aidan24326 wrote: »

On the issue of abortion their views are so clouded by religious dogma as to make their position on the subject irrelevant imo. It's a matter for medical science and law to deal with. Theology doesn't really have anything useful to add (does it ever?)

It's like same-sex marriage, I just want someone to say to the Church "Your objections have been noted and will be taken into consideration. Thank you."

We get it, you oppose abortions. Abortions are wrong in your religion. Here's the thing though; This country is not a religion. This country is not bound by, nor should it be influenced by a religion. You've made your point, and if you want to condemn members of your religion for having abortions, go ahead. But outside of your religion, you should have no more influence than anyone else.

christmas2012

funny enough im not pro abortion or against abortion,but i think it becoming widely available in ireland would be a bad thing,as there would be people getting it done for all kinds of idle reasons,not real reasons like rape/incest/handicap etc..

Morgase

christmas2012 wrote: »

Some do breeze into abortion clinics thinking this is a problem i can scratch out of my life,i have an OPTION etc,but it does turn out to be a horribly invasive procedure,and they dont give you general anaesthetic they give you concious sedation..so it is very traumatic for a young girl or woman to go through of any age..

It's not always traumatic. Next you'll be telling us "there's always a better answer".

christmas2012 wrote: »

practising safe sex,and not getting abortion on demand if you get pregnant face the music,have an attitude of genuine maturity when it comes to sex,you and your partner,face the music if needs be..

So if a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy even though she and her partner have done all they can to prevent it, you insist that they must go through with it and look after a child for at least 18 years. How loved that child will be!

christmas2012

It's not always traumatic.

tell that to me again AFTER you get an abortion,they use conscious sedation,and it is painful and invasive..the child is torn apart,or if comes out intact is left on a table to suffocate,you dont like the facts then think about what youre saying..and the impact of what you are saying..

again i would like to add i would make exception to these rules,such as those suffering the severe emotinal trauma of rape or incest etc..

Morgase

Sin City wrote: »

have to say im against abortion myself , except.in extreme circumstances . just to add that my.opinion has no religious ideology or teaching behind it . The.whole , you should be against condom etc if.you are against abortion is a red herring in so far as the potential
person was deprived.of a vital ingredient to become a person , the female egg

And what about other contraception such as the coil? Many methods of contraception prevent implantation, not fertilisation.

I have to disagree that abortion should only be for extreme circumstances. Thousands of women travel to the UK for the procedure. Let's please be done with the "Irish solution to the Irish problem" and allow those women to do the same thing at home.

Morgase

christmas2012 wrote: »

tell that to me again AFTER you get an abortion,they use conscious sedation,and it is painful and invasive..the child is torn apart,or if comes out intact is left on a table to suffocate,you dont like the facts then think about what youre saying..and the impact of what you are saying..

again i would like to add i would make exception to these rules,such as those suffering the severe emotinal trauma of rape or incest etc..

You don't know a damned thing about me. I request that you take back that remark.

christmas2012

Let's please be done with the "Irish solution to the Irish problem"

and tell that to the HSE,and no i wont take back what i have said,i wasnt implying i knew anything about you whatsoever,i was stating the hard facts of abortion,its not as simple as scratching it out of your life,as a lot of people seem to think..

Dont be so naive do you honestly think the HSE can handle opening manning,staffing and running abortion clinics on top of the mess they are already making of hospitals(hospitals closing down etc??)..

professore

MagicMarker wrote: »

Insightful as always....



"Austerity isn't working, say NO to abortion"

"Minimum wage of €1.27, say NO to abortion":D