'Enough is Enough' - Lance Armstrong

midlands paranormal researcher

yes but he's still great, have to say yes he got caught and yes there is a witch hunt after him i hope makes a come back

T-K-O

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

This is really simple.

There is one simple difference between Armstrong and pretty much every other athlete who doped and it is the same thing that made him into the star he was and that is cancer.

Living in the sportsworld bubble, it is very easy to get drawn into the nefarious side of a sport when everybody else is doing it, part of the game so to speak. Well when Armstrong was diagnosed with cancer, he was out of that bubble, he had one of those events that usually makes people re-assess their life choices.

As a former World Champion and top rider, Armstrong had a lot more options than your average athlete. Armstong had a big profile even just by coming back to the sport after cancer and could easily have made a decent wage dope free and been a powerful advocate for his foundation without ever doping.

Instead he chose the least moralistic option after such a life changing event and decided to dope to the max and use his cancer charity as his shield. Armstrong was more famous than any other cyclist ever after just one Tour victory, why? Because of the cancer angle of course.

Lots of people like Kimmage and Walsh had Armstrong pinned from the start but their voices were drowned out in the rush to make a few dollars of the back of 'cancer Jesus'. I doubt that without the cancer angle, Armstrong would not have won a single Tour, never mind 7. He would have been busted or called out right from the get go.

It is the sheer cynicism of using cancer as a tool in his pursuit of fame, money and glory that makes him 1000 times more despicable than any other doper out there and worthy of every bit of punishment and scorn he receives. Armstrong is a complete sociopath and is currenlty just testing the waters to see how the public might react to an actual confession.

Armstrong will always do what is best for Armstrong, to keep the money rolling in and to keep his over-inflated ego in the news. Undoubtedly THE MOST DESPICABLE sportsman of all time.

This is over the top IMO. Drug testing in sport is a joke. Lots of sports choose not to test for certain drugs. I have a problem labeling Armstrong the big bad wolf. While I agree with a lot of the above there are many more like him. The problem is sport does not want to catch them.

Using his cancer as a screen was definitely a low blow, but the UCI and the fans were only too happy to buy into it. We were supposed to believe that his peers were on drugs yet he somehow managed to win 7 tours, clean as a whistle.

Armstrong must shoulder a lot of the blame but this problem is bigger than one athlete.

Fr D Maugire

No

T-K-O wrote: »

This is over the top IMO. Drug testing in sport is a joke. Lots of sports choose not to test for certain drugs. I have a problem labeling Armstrong the big bad wolf. While I agree with a lot of the above there are many more like him. The problem is sport does not want to catch them.

Using his cancer as a screen was definitely a low blow, but the UCI and the fans were only too happy to buy into it. We were supposed to believe that his peers were on drugs yet he somehow managed to win 7 tours, clean as a whistle.

Armstrong must shoulder a lot of the blame but this problem is bigger than one athlete.

Ok, you name me another athlete who has done something as low as using a disease that directly affects millions of people around the world to promote his own lies and directly lie to the people he claims to represent.

When Armstrong came back in 2009, it was supposedly to promote cancer awareness, what bollix. If was to feed his huge ego as he thought he could win another Tour as well as line his pockets further by charging huge appearence fees. All that 'hope rides again' bollix made me feel physically sick.

On his first Tour back in 1999, Amrstong was asked about the possibility of him doping. His response was along these lines.

"You know, I looked death in the face and survived, I would never risk putting chemicals in my body that would endanger my health like that"

That is what encapsulates the man, blatant BS using the cancer card at every turn. That is truly despicable and what set hims out as different from most dopers. When other dopers start pulling stuff like that I will happily concur that Lance was no worse than anyone else.

As I said before, if he had been a regular athlete without the cancer card, he would never have got near 7 Tours as he would have been called out long before it. Yes, others were complicit in his story but people are greedy and stupid and would rather make the quick buck rather than face reality. The cancer story was perfect and genius, who really wants to question someone who survived cancer when there is such a feel good vibe and money to be made??

I lost my father who was a keen cyclist to cancer and I would never ever want any association between him and someone like Armstrong. Lance was/is a low-life scumbag who was never inerested in anyone else other than himself.

I would bet that you actually know squat about the true nature of Armstrong so dont really know what you are talking about.

TheBlaaMan

No

midlands paranormal researcher wrote: »

yes but he's still great, have to say yes he got caught and yes there is a witch hunt after him i hope makes a come back

T-K-O

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Ok, you name me another athlete who has done something as low as using a disease that directly affects millions of people around the world to promote his own lies and directly lie to the people he claims to represent.

When Armstrong came back in 2009, it was supposedly to promote cancer awareness, what bollix. If was to feed his huge ego as he thought he could win another Tour as well as line his pockets further by charging huge appearence fees. All that 'hope rides again' bollix made me feel physically sick.

On his first Tour back in 1999, Amrstong was asked about the possibility of him doping. His response was along these lines.

"You know, I looked death in the face and survived, I would never risk putting chemicals in my body that would endanger my health like that"

That is what encapsulates the man, blatant BS using the cancer card at every turn. That is truly despicable and what set hims out as different from most dopers. When other dopers start pulling stuff like that I will happily concur that Lance was no worse than anyone else.

As I said before, if he had been a regular athlete without the cancer card, he would never have got near 7 Tours as he would have been called out long before it. Yes, others were complicit in his story but people are greedy and stupid and would rather make the quick buck rather than face reality. The cancer story was perfect and genius, who really wants to question someone who survived cancer when there is such a feel good vibe and money to be made??

I lost my father who was a keen cyclist to cancer and I would never ever want any association between him and someone like Armstrong. Lance was/is a low-life scumbag who was never inerested in anyone else other than himself.

I would bet that you actually know squat about the true nature of Armstrong so dont really know what you are talking about.

Unfortunately too many of us have experienced cancer in one way or another.

Cheaters cheat and they will use any means available to them. I could name a lot of sports superstars that have cheated their way to top. I will not name them because their sport didn't bother to catch them, the effort put into proving Armstrong was doping was unprecedented.

Did he use his cancer sure but he also raised a lot of money at the same time. One doesn't excuse the other but if thinking Armstrong is the devil allows you to sleep easy at night, so be it.

I have never claimed to be an expert in cycling but I know about drugs in sport. If you think Armstrong is a lone ranger in this you are very naive.

Fr D Maugire

No

T-K-O wrote: »

Unfortunately too many of us have experienced cancer in one way or another.

Cheaters cheat and they will use any means available to them. I could name a lot of sports superstars that have cheated their way to top. I will not name them because their sport didn't bother to catch them, the effort put into proving Armstrong was doping was unprecedented.

Did he use his cancer sure but he also raised a lot of money at the same time. One doesn't excuse the other but if thinking Armstrong is the devil allows you to sleep easy at night, so be it.

I have never claimed to be an expert in cycling but I know about drugs in sport. If you think Armstrong is a lone ranger in this you are very naive.

The Armstrong case has never been purely about doping, ever. That is the first thing you need to grasp.

As I have said twice now and you keep ignoring, if it was purely about doping, he would never have won 7 Tours and would never have become the superstar he was. He would have been just another doper, period. Armstrongs doping and his cancer charade are intrinsically linked and that is the way Armstrong always wanted it. You simply cannot seperate the two.

It was the cancer angle that put him in the position of power and finance that made him untouchable and gave him huge advantages over the other dopers. The fact that he bullied, threatened and sued so many people on his quest to keep his dirty little secret just means that there was always going to be far more people lining up to take a pop at him when he was caught.

I suggest you do a lot more reading on the background of this subject before commenting further because your knowledge of this case is clearly limited. Armstrong is not just another doper.

I will also await for you to name an athlete who has pulled a more despicable charade than Amrstong.

Lusk Doyle

No

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

I will also await for you to name an athlete who has pulled a more despicable charade than Amrstong.

Oj Simpson. Buts a whole different glove size though.

Colonialboy

Yes, but he's still great

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

I will also await for you to name an athlete who has pulled a more despicable charade than Amrstong.

Thierry Henry .....

lifes complex and full of contradictions..
i guess the question you have to ask yourself is ...
If someone close to you who was suffering from cancer could avail of and be saved by a cure made possible DIRECTLY by funds rasied by Lance Armstrong would you have any hesitation in using that cure.

When alls said and done he did raise a bucket load of money for cancer ( i know alot ended up in admin costs etc) .
Can you name an athlete who has done so much to help in the fight against disease.

maybe it all snowballed for lance, took a bit of EPO , got away with it, the Livestrong thing took off and he went with it, 80% ego, 15% megalomania, 5% desire to help people .. who knows.

I think he wants to get back racing cos he is still very young... only 41 (?) and imagine how it must feel to be so fit and not be able to even go down to the local 5k and jog around.
Id like to see him come clean, Ive always thought wether in finance , sport, politics , whatever if only someone high profile came clean and burst the lid on the scams going on... maybe they dont get to be high profile cos it would never enter their psyche todo so.

furiousox

No

What sets Armstrong apart is the way he tried to destroy the reputations of anyone who placed a question-mark against him.
He used his power and influence to try and crush Bassons, Simeoni, Emma O'Reilly, David Walsh, Betsy Andreu, Greg LeMond, Paul Kimmage and many more.
And for what?
For telling the truth about him.
He knew they were getting too close and he did his best to destroy them, that's what makes him a despicable person.

Morrisseeee

No

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

I will also await for you to name an athlete who has pulled a more despicable charade than Amrstong.

Suarez :pac:

T-K-O

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

The Armstrong case has never been purely about doping, ever. That is the first thing you need to grasp.

As I have said twice now and you keep ignoring, if it was purely about doping, he would never have won 7 Tours and would never have become the superstar he was. He would have been just another doper, period. Armstrongs doping and his cancer charade are intrinsically linked and that is the way Armstrong always wanted it. You simply cannot seperate the two.

It was the cancer angle that put him in the position of power and finance that made him untouchable and gave him huge advantages over the other dopers. The fact that he bullied, threatened and sued so many people on his quest to keep his dirty little secret just means that there was always going to be far more people lining up to take a pop at him when he was caught.

I suggest you do a lot more reading on the background of this subject before commenting further because your knowledge of this case is clearly limited. Armstrong is not just another doper.

I will also await for you to name an athlete who has pulled a more despicable charade than Amrstong.

I dont need to do any more reading, he was a cheat and he abused his position.

Name a sportsman that was under the same spotlight for cheating in a sport. Remember cycling is a game yet the highest powers in America came after Armstrong. If they did that with other sports stars believe me he would not be alone. OK they may not have had cancer but you can be sure other athletes are using everything within their power to hide from the authorities.

Most of the people (sports stars) that we look up to are taking something, that is a simply fact ignored by governing bodies throughout the world.

RobFowl

No

midlands paranormal researcher wrote: »

yes but he's still great, have to say yes he got caught and yes there is a witch hunt after him i hope makes a come back

I see you have used all your skills and contacted LA's "credibility". Most people thought it had passed on through a long time ago.....

LA was "great" in the same way Ronnie O Brien was the worlds greatest ever football player................

Lumen

Colonialboy wrote: »

If someone close to you who was suffering from cancer could avail of and be saved by a cure made possible DIRECTLY by funds rasied by Lance Armstrong would you have any hesitation in using that cure.

That is unpossible, since Livestrong does not fund research for cancer treatment.

Fr D Maugire

No

Colonialboy wrote: »

Thierry Henry .....

lifes complex and full of contradictions..
i guess the question you have to ask yourself is ...
If someone close to you who was suffering from cancer could avail of and be saved by a cure made possible DIRECTLY by funds rasied by Lance Armstrong would you have any hesitation in using that cure.

When alls said and done he did raise a bucket load of money for cancer ( i know alot ended up in admin costs etc) .
Can you name an athlete who has done so much to help in the fight against disease.

maybe it all snowballed for lance, took a bit of EPO , got away with it, the Livestrong thing took off and he went with it, 80% ego, 15% megalomania, 5% desire to help people .. who knows.

I think he wants to get back racing cos he is still very young... only 41 (?) and imagine how it must feel to be so fit and not be able to even go down to the local 5k and jog around.
Id like to see him come clean, Ive always thought wether in finance , sport, politics , whatever if only someone high profile came clean and burst the lid on the scams going on... maybe they dont get to be high profile cos it would never enter their psyche todo so.

You do realise that none of the money raised by Livestrong has gone towards cancer reserach, mostly gone on raising awareness whatever that means, always seemed more like raising awareness of Lance. Livestrong was more about lining Lance's pockets than anything.

Armstrong could easily have had his foundation without doping, it might not have become as famous or as big but it would have been more honest and genuine. Livestrong probably directed money away from more important cancer organisations that were focused on research.

hardCopy

No

Lumen wrote: »

That is unpossible, since Livestrong does not fund research for cancer treatment.

The many myths of Lance Armstrong. Reading a list of Lance's achievements is like reading one of those Chuck Norris emails.

I heard he once cycled over the moon! On a fixie!

Fr D Maugire

No

T-K-O wrote: »

I dont need to do any more reading, he was a cheat and he abused his position.

Name a sportsman that was under the same spotlight for cheating in a sport. Remember cycling is a game yet the highest powers in America came after Armstrong. If they did that with other sports stars believe me he would not be alone. OK they may not have had cancer but you can be sure other athletes are using everything within their power to hide from the authorities.

Most of the people (sports stars) that we look up to are taking something, that is a simply fact ignored by governing bodies throughout the world.

Name an athlete?? Most of his team-mates!! Tyler Hamilton, Christian Vandevelde, Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie etc. Those guys were also busted but got shorter sentences becasue they co-operated with the investigation.

Do you even know the reasons the FBI were involved??? why the case was even started??? Nothing to do with picking on Armstrong but investigating whether government money(US Postal Service) was being used for buying drugs. Besides it was USADA that busted Lance not the FBI. The FBI case was dropped mostly likely because of political influence.

It also started because Floyd Landis e-mailed the doping authorities with a load of info regarding doping, the UCI did nothing because they are corrupt, WADA acted on the info and launched an investigation which is their job after all.

I have no problem with athletes providing evidence of others doping as long as it is investigated and verified correctly. As doping controls are failing, it is the way to go.

By the way Alberto Contador was another athlete who nearly died from a disease/illness and has a foundation. Contador is much a doper as Armstrong but do you ever hear him hiding behind his illness or of him bullying other riders or the media or threatning to destroy people.

As I said before, your knowledge of this entire case is severly limited and you are just flailing around now as you have nothing.

Fr D Maugire

No

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Oj Simpson. Buts a whole different glove size though.

I dont think what OJ did was of any benefit to him during his career.

happytramp

No

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Ok, you name me another athlete who has done something as low as using a disease that directly affects millions of people around the world to promote his own lies and directly lie to the people he claims to represent.

Check out Violette Morris. Champion boxer, wrestler, archer, footballer and in her day one of the greatest race car drivers around (she even had her breasts cut off in order to fit into the tiny race cars of the time)

God knows where she found time to be a Nazi spy and a torturer for the french Gestapo.

T-K-O

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Name an athlete?? Most of his team-mates!! Tyler Hamilton, Christian Vandevelde, Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie etc. Those guys were also busted but got shorter sentences becasue they co-operated with the investigation.

Do you even know the reasons the FBI were involved??? why the case was even started??? Nothing to do with picking on Armstrong but investigating whether government money(US Postal Service) was being used for buying drugs. Besides it was USADA that busted Lance not the FBI. The FBI case was dropped mostly likely because of political influence.

It also started because Floyd Landis e-mailed the doping authorities with a load of info regarding doping, the UCI did nothing because they are corrupt, WADA acted on the info and launched an investigation which is their job after all.

I have no problem with athletes providing evidence of others doping as long as it is investigated and verified correctly. As doping controls are failing, it is the way to go.



By the way Alberto Contador was another athlete who nearly died from a disease/illness and has a foundation. Contador is much a doper as Armstrong but do you ever hear him hiding behind his illness or of him bullying other riders or the media or threatning to destroy people.

As I said before, your knowledge of this entire case is severly limited and you are just flailing around now as you have nothing.

There is a huge difference in getting busted and having a crack team out to catch you. Now, they were right to catch him but you're missing the point. Why don't the authorities go after all top sportsmen, I tell you why because they don't care. Edit; in most sports when guys get busted it's down to their own stupidity.

Drugs and modern sport are two peas in a pod. Armstrong was not the first and he wont be last. Pro cycling is rotten to the core and has been for years.

The whole Armstrong made me do it, or he's gone now phew, the sport is clean again is so biased it's not funny.

Lumen

happytramp wrote: »

Check out Violette Morris. Champion boxer, wrestler, archer, footballer and in her day one of the greatest race car drivers around (she even had her breasts cut off in order to fit into the tiny race cars of the time)

God knows where she found time to be a Nazi spy and a torturer for the french Gestapo.

That's mad Ted.

Lusk Doyle

No

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

I dont think what OJ did was of any benefit to him during his career.

That wasn't the question that was asked though, was it?

Lusk Doyle

No

T-K-O wrote: »

I dont need to do any more reading, he was a cheat and he abused his position.

Name a sportsman that was under the same spotlight for cheating in a sport. Remember cycling is a game yet the highest powers in America came after Armstrong. If they did that with other sports stars believe me he would not be alone. OK they may not have had cancer but you can be sure other athletes are using everything within their power to hide from the authorities.

Most of the people (sports stars) that we look up to are taking something, that is a simply fact ignored by governing bodies throughout the world.

Professional cycling is not a game. It's a business.

Fr D Maugire

No

T-K-O wrote: »

There is a huge difference in getting busted and having a crack team out to catch you. Now, they were right to catch him but you're missing the point. Why don't the authorities go after all top sportsmen, I tell you why because they don't care. Edit; in most sports when guys get busted it's down to their own stupidity.

Drugs and modern sport are two peas in a pod. Armstrong was not the first and he wont be last. Pro cycling is rotten to the core and has been for years.

The whole Armstrong made me do it, or he's gone now phew, the sport is clean again is so biased it's not funny.

I think it is you who is missing the point and showing your complete ignorance of everything. Firstly it was the exact same bunch of guys who busted Armstrong's team-mates as it was who busted Lance. They were all part of the same investigation. If the police go after a mafia ring, its usually the leaders they really want and plea deals are often offered to the lesser lights, same story here. Armstrong was very definitely the leader at his team in every way.

Just last year, Jan Ullrich who was Armstrongs biggest rival had a case against him finally closed. He has been retired since 2006, effectively blacklisted. All of Armstrongs rivals were either busted or blacklisted, some with a lot less evidence than against Armstrong. This notion that Armstrong is being singled out is BS. Didnt hear you whining when those other guys were busted.

You simply cannot go after peole without some form of evidence at the minimum. Even though it is likely many top athletes dope, you just cannot assume it and start prosecutions against everybody. That is idiotic. There are many cycling fans who are skeptical of Bradley Wiggins being clean including myself but right now there is zero evidence of that other than performances. Now if a team-mates comes forward and says he seen Wiggins doping, I would expect some action to be taken. Until then, all can be done is ask the hard questions of him.

If there is evidence of doping then yes there should be investigations and indeed there are ongoing investigations in cycling currently e.g Padua affair but as a non-cycling fan you probably wouldnt know this.

Lets not forget that back in 2005, the L'Equipe paper carried out a journalistic investigation that showed Armstrong had used EPO in 99. The governing body UCI then launched an official investigation but it was a total whitewash. This would be the same UCI who were receiving 'donations' from Armstrong around that time:rolleyes:

Nobody but nobody in the cycling world thinks that cycling is now clean because Armstrong has been caught. Judging by racing speeds it does seem to have cleaned up a bit but definitely is not clean. The only people who might think that are people who are new to the sport.

Many cycling fans were indeed happy to see Armstrong busted because of the reasons I have listed numerous times now, he was/is a scumbag and its always great to see a scumbag get there just desserts. There will always be bias against scumbags, human nature.

The more you post, the more you show how little knowledge you have on this matter.

fat bloke

No

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

I think it is you who is missing the point and showing your complete ignorance of everything.

Ok, now that's I call a forum knock-out punch. Not even Lance Armstrong could recover from that:D

ozzy jr

No

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

I dont think what OJ did was of any benefit to him during his career.

:eek:

OJ was found not guilty.

Where's the Mods when you need them, scouring the Bradley Wiggins thread for doping speculation?

Capt'n Midnight

No

ozzy jr wrote: »

:eek:

OJ was found not guilty.

Where's the Mods when you need them, scouring the Bradley Wiggins thread for doping speculation?

In fairness he did lose the civil case afterwards, $21m IIRC

petethedrummer

No

In a pure sporting sense I can think of more desipcable acts than Armstrong's drug taking. Loaded boxing gloves and having your ice-skating competitor knobbled being two. But it's Armstrong's holistic approach to being an absolute knobhead that makes him shine above all others.

Kav0777

No

T-K-O wrote: »

Why don't the authorities go after all top sportsmen, I tell you why because they don't care.

Like Marion Jones and Barry Bonds?

T-K-O

Athletes smashing records left right and centre and I'm ignorant. Please.

I did not say the authorities should chase people without suspicion but they should at least design a testing system that is capable of catching these cheats. You continue to make out like I'm in favor of Armstrong when that is simply not true. There is no question that the authorities put an extra shift in to catch him. I'll say it again, rightfully so. The system is broke and while it remains that way we will have guys who will use every mean possible to get that leg up.

Armstrong is a cheat but he is not alone. If that offends you or clearly winds you up, well that is your problem.


In relation to Jones and Bonds, I would imagine as they got older they took more risks with their doping, for example taking more of what ever substance they were taking to combat their age

Kav0777

No

T-K-O wrote: »

In relation to Jones and Bonds, I would imagine as they got older they took more risks with their doping, for example taking more of what ever substance they were taking to combat their age

My point was it was the same federal investigators who investigated the the BALCO scandal, which caught among others Marion Jones and Barry bonds, who carried out the investigation into the US Postal Team, using the same methods.