Anything good about religion at all?

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

^^^ gothictwilight has moved, permanently, into the twilight zone.

Jeeeze robin- at this rate we'll have no one left to play with .

Sir Pompous Righteousness

One of the best choral arrangement ever devised by mankind:

In my opinion, some of the best musical works were religious works.

Sarky

Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »

In my opinion, some of the best musical works were religious works.

I must respectfully disagree:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWuNf4gxwuM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3RPPHbk28w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M1k1tgq87g

:cool:

MagicMarker

Is Stairway to Heaven considered religious?

Bannasidhe

MagicMarker wrote: »

Is Stairway to Heaven considered religious?

Only Rolf's version.

Wafaa79

I think that there is no answer to this really.
Religion, or rather what people make of religion, does bring both good and bad.

Religion can give you comfort and hope in times of grief and struggle. To some people, it will give principles and morals when they might not have had them otherwise. Some can call that hypocrisy, but does it really matter in the end?

Religion also can tear people apart and used for oppression and violence.

I strongly believe however that Humanity has a propensity to self-destruction anyway. Men will use religion or any other reason to fight each other. Some countries invade others and slaughter the population in the name of democracy and tolerance.
Religion, money, politics are all excuses for wars.

For the record, I don’t believe in God, or rather the concept of “God that cares for and loves us”, considering the misery on this planet.
I can imagine however a superior force that created the natural phenomenon that brought Life on Earth, then decided that their work was done and let us make our own way.
I leave this question open since there is no way to be proven wrong or right.

PS: I hope I made myself clear enough, I am not a native English speaker.

Sir Pompous Righteousness

Sarky wrote: »

I must respectfully disagree:

You can't be serious, right? Especially with that tripe you linked from youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXNj2BobjJ4

Quatermain

Alrighty, then. Awe-inspiring music of a non-religious nature?

Undergod

That proves nothing, and he said "some".

Look, the thread title is asking if there's anything good about religion at all. Just because it can also be found somewhere else, doesn't mean it isn't provided by religion.

The exchange seems a bit like:
"Playing sports is good for your fitness."
"No, you can be fit if you don't play sports! Look at these fit people who don't do sports! You don't need sports for fitness!"

Sarky

Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »

You can't be serious, right? Especially what that tripe you linked from youtube.

You just don't get rock'n'roll, man.

<5 hour solo>

Sir Pompous Righteousness

Sarky wrote: »

You just don't get rock'n'roll, man.

<5 hour solo>

Indeed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOhWSGbhxAo

The Mad Hatter

Sarky wrote: »

Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »

You can't be serious, right? Especially what that tripe you linked from youtube.

You just don't get rock'n'roll, man.

<5 hour solo>

Five hours? Pah! I see your five hours and raise you Wagner's 12-hour Ring Cycle.

ShooterSF

Rewatching the life of Brian debate brought up a point raised here and I found it curious how happy the guy was to point it out. He was referencing how Mother Theresa (and leaving aside that her actions weren't great in anyway for now) said she "helped" people because of a man where others helped because of an idea (the idea being that we should help each other I guess) and that if that man was shown not to be who he claimed to be she would stop. Now why he thought that didn't put her in a bad light I don't know but it does lead to some curious thought. Are we concerned with people becoming better people or are we just concerned with people performing the same actions as better people. For me if someone helps others to help themselves in to heaven even though the actions are the exact same as someone who does it to help others I find it a bit hollow.

Bannasidhe

ShooterSF wrote: »

Rewatching the life of Brian debate brought up a point raised here and I found it curious how happy the guy was to point it out. He was referencing how Mother Theresa (and leaving aside that her actions weren't great in anyway for now) said she "helped" people because of a man where others helped because of an idea (the idea being that we should help each other I guess) and that if that man was shown not to be who he claimed to be she would stop. Now why he thought that didn't put her in a bad light I don't know but it does lead to some curious thought. Are we concerned with people becoming better people or are we just concerned with people performing the same actions as better people. For me if someone helps others to help themselves in to heaven even though the actions are the exact same as someone who does it to help others I find it a bit hollow.

That one puzzles me too. Have tried to discuss it with Christians in t'udder forum but just got a load of scripture and passive aggressive 'Jesus loves you' as a response and when I have asked Christians in real life they mostly looked confused.

My premise was simple enough - helping a fellow human who needs it because it will please God (and therefore earn one a reward) is a selfish act as one is helping in order to gain personally as opposed to helping a fellow human being because they need it and you can help and it is the morally right thing to do.

Wafaa79

ShooterSF wrote: »

For me if someone helps others to help themselves in to heaven even though the actions are the exact same as someone who does it to help others I find it a bit hollow.

Fair enough, but does it matter in the end?
If I give 1000 € to charity because I think it is going to get me to Heaven or if I give it because I feel this is the right thing to do, do you really think the charity is going to care either way?
Do you really think that the lepers that Mother Theresa helped cared that she was doing it in the name of Jesus? Bottom line is that she was doing it no matter what her motivation was.

In some ways, I find atheists as annoying as fundamentalists. I don’t understand this need to prove that religion is a bad thing, and to go round saying that religious people are kidding themselves, as if they cared about what you think.
I don’t really agree with what they believe but I could not care less that is some of them think they will go to Heaven and I won’t. And if religion bring them comfort and a purpose, why should that bother me?
In this thread it really feels that the admin and most participants are just sharing the same unilateral thought.
I was hoping for some interesting exchange of point of views but what we got is people patting themselves on the shoulder while they all agree and sneer at people who have different opinions (who wanna bet that I am going to get banned for that comment?).
Just the title “anything good about religion at all??” proves that the answer expected is: “of course not, religion is evil because of A, B and C”.

You guys need to understand that you will NEVER be proven wrong or right because there is no simple answer to that topic. It’s not all black and white.

Turtwig

Wafaa79 wrote: »

I was hoping for some interesting exchange of point of views but what we got is people patting themselves on the shoulder while they all agree and sneer at people who have different opinions (who wanna bet that I am going to get banned for that comment?).

I'll bet €10,000 that you won't be banned for that specific comment.

MagicMarker

Wafaa79 wrote: »

Fair enough, but does it matter in the end?
If I give 1000 € to charity because I think it is going to get me to Heaven or if I give it because I feel this is the right thing to do, do you really think the charity is going to care either way?
Do you really think that the lepers that Mother Theresa helped cared that she was doing it in the name of Jesus? Bottom line is that she was doing it no matter what her motivation was.

In some ways, I find atheists as annoying as fundamentalists. I don’t understand this need to prove that religion is a bad thing, and to go round saying that religious people are kidding themselves, as if they cared about what you think.
I don’t really agree with what they believe but I could not care less that is some of them think they will go to Heaven and I won’t. And if religion bring them comfort and a purpose, why should that bother me?
In this thread it really feels that the admin and most participants are just sharing the same unilateral thought.
I was hoping for some interesting exchange of point of views but what we got is people patting themselves on the shoulder while they all agree and sneer at people who have different opinions (who wanna bet that I am going to get banned for that comment?).
Just the title “anything good about religion at all??” proves that the answer expected is: “of course not, religion is evil because of A, B and C”.

You guys need to understand that you will NEVER be proven wrong or right because there is no simple answer to that topic. It’s not all black and white.

Aw, diddums.

Wafaa79

MagicMarker wrote: »

Aw, diddums.

Honestly man?
Is that all you have to say? Wow.
By the way, I am not a native speaker, if my tone comes across as whiny, that was really not my intention, although I find kinda sad the lack of proper exchanges in this discussion.

Anyway, seeing your reaction, I wonder if this is really my tone or the fact that you don’t really know how to respond to my comment.
Let’s make it easier for you, shall we:
“Religion is bad, because religious people are bad and stupid.”
Care to comment on that?

MagicMarker

Wafaa79 wrote: »

Honestly man?
Is that all you have to say? Wow.
By the way, I am not a native speaker, if my tone comes across as whiny, that was really not my intention, although I find kinda sad the lack of proper exchanges in this discussion.

Anyway, seeing your reaction, I wonder if this is really my tone or the fact that you don’t really know how to respond to my comment.
Let’s make it easier for you, shall we:
“Religion is bad, because religious people are bad and stupid.”
Care to comment on that?

I just find it ironic that you complain of the lack of "proper exchanges" when in only your 2nd post in the whole thread you resort to tired old generalizations that we hear a lot around here, such as "atheists {are} as annoying as fundamentalists" or that we're all just here patting each other on the back.

If you're interested in the exchange of ideas why don't you contribute? There is plenty on the thread for you to respond to such as Seamus' post and the posts immediately following that one there was actually a discussion developing, or you could reply to nozzferrahhtoo's post?

In fact, I'm beginning to think you haven't even read the thread at all, maybe you just fancied a rant?

Bannasidhe

Wafaa79 wrote: »

Fair enough, but does it matter in the end?
If I give 1000 € to charity because I think it is going to get me to Heaven or if I give it because I feel this is the right thing to do, do you really think the charity is going to care either way?
Do you really think that the lepers that Mother Theresa helped cared that she was doing it in the name of Jesus? Bottom line is that she was doing it no matter what her motivation was.

In some ways, I find atheists as annoying as fundamentalists. I don’t understand this need to prove that religion is a bad thing, and to go round saying that religious people are kidding themselves, as if they cared about what you think.
I don’t really agree with what they believe but I could not care less that is some of them think they will go to Heaven and I won’t. And if religion bring them comfort and a purpose, why should that bother me?
In this thread it really feels that the admin and most participants are just sharing the same unilateral thought.
I was hoping for some interesting exchange of point of views but what we got is people patting themselves on the shoulder while they all agree and sneer at people who have different opinions (who wanna bet that I am going to get banned for that comment?).
Just the title “anything good about religion at all??” proves that the answer expected is: “of course not, religion is evil because of A, B and C”.

You guys need to understand that you will NEVER be proven wrong or right because there is no simple answer to that topic. It’s not all black and white.

Because we are informed time and time again that it is vital that our schools continue to indoctrinate our children into a specific religion as religion is the very fount of morality. Apparently, if left unindoctrinated our children will grew up to lack a moral compass and be unable to distinguish between right and wrong.

Atheists are, according to this argument, incapable of being moral as we not only do not have a religion - we do not believe in God.

yet, if one thinks about this objectively which is the more 'moral' stance - to help one's fellow human beings because it is one's 'duty' according to one's religion (i.e - you are specifically ordered to); to help one's fellow human beings because one will earn a reward in the afterlife/help gain access to paradise (i.e - a self interested act); or because to help one's fellow human beings without a hope reward or because of an order is the right (i.e. - moral) thing to do?

I'm about to drop 2 bags of clothes down to the VdeP which will be sold to help people in financial difficulty and provide some reasonably priced, good quality clothes to people who may not otherwise be able to afford them.

I could flog them to one of those buy used clothes places or on ebay ( expensive and hardly worn kids clothes make up the bulk of the stuff). However, I think this is my duty as a human being to do what I can to help my fellow human beings- the only 'reward' I will get is some extra space in my wardrobe. So, yes - it can get annoying to be told by people who expect an eternal reward for their 'acts of charity' that I am devoid of morals simply because I do not share their religious beliefs.

Wafaa79

MagicMarker wrote: »

In fact, I'm beginning to think you haven't even read the thread at all, maybe you just fancied a rant?

LOL, yeah you got me right, I had my rant, my life is now fulfilled .
I said most people commenting here are the type that sneer at religious people, not all of the participants.
Anyway, to answer your question, I did read their posts but considering that they tend to think the same way as I do, I don't see the point of posting "I agree with you" (and patting them on the back ).
Hence, I will comment on posts that make me react.
So what my post was about is that I really cannot fathom that some people will see religion as either purely good or (especially in this case) purely evil when there is so many grey areas.

Turtwig

Wafaa79 wrote: »

Fair enough, but does it matter in the end?
If I give 1000 € to charity because I think it is going to get me to Heaven or if I give it because I feel this is the right thing to do, do you really think the charity is going to care either way?
Do you really think that the lepers that Mother Theresa helped cared that she was doing it in the name of Jesus? Bottom line is that she was doing it no matter what her motivation was.

In some ways, I find atheists as annoying as fundamentalists. I don’t understand this need to prove that religion is a bad thing, and to go round saying that religious people are kidding themselves, as if they cared about what you think.
I don’t really agree with what they believe but I could not care less that is some of them think they will go to Heaven and I won’t. And if religion bring them comfort and a purpose, why should that bother me?
In this thread it really feels that the admin and most participants are just sharing the same unilateral thought.
I was hoping for some interesting exchange of point of views but what we got is people patting themselves on the shoulder while they all agree and sneer at people who have different opinions (who wanna bet that I am going to get banned for that comment?).
Just the title “anything good about religion at all??” proves that the answer expected is: “of course not, religion is evil because of A, B and C”.

You guys need to understand that you will NEVER be proven wrong or right because there is no simple answer to that topic. It’s not all black and white.

Fair enough I'll bite.

Take the example of someone getting sponsored to run a marathon to raise money for charity? That's great isn't it, raising money for charity? Let's look at it more cynically for a moment. If the person spent the same amount of time they spent preparing themselves for the marathon doing actual charity work, or just merely working to save money to give to that charity, they'd produce significantly more benefits for that charity. That's a little harsh,the guy did after all overcome a personal challenge. But why the heck should we pay someone to get fit? Why are we then expected to go an support them as if they've done something great and why, on earth, then, are they allowed to boast about it as if they have achieved something great. It's all shallow vacuous ****e. If you want to get yourself fit get fit, if you want to run a marathon, run a marathon. Don't expect others to pay you for it. If you want to raise money for charity do it anyway. Same can be said for charity cycles, charity walks in foreign countries. You might be helping people, but if helping people was your primary purpose you wouldn't be dressing it up with all this fanciful training, blogs and fund raising.

The Charity probably don't care all that much but the distinction between someone who raised money for charity at no personal benefit to themselves and someone who raised money for the charity while also benefiting personally from the whole ordeal, couldn't be more apparent. The same can be said of someone who helps someone else because they want to get into heaven and someone who doesn't believe in any form of afterlife and helps a person because they simply choose to do so. The person who wants to get into heaven is nowhere near as altruistic as the person who thinks this world is all there is. For the person who thinks this world is all there is,time is ever so precious and they're truly making a sacrifice because of all the things they could be using the time to do to benefit themselves e.g learning a new skill/hobby, sightseeing, socialising, studying, etc. they chose to spend it helping someone else. It's a bit like working on a job and staying late to help out a superior. One person knows that if they help out a co-worker it might help them get ahead in their career later on. The other person merely helps the co-worker because they want to and don't really give any second thoughts to future career prospects.

Two other things,
True idealistic altruism probably doesn't exist but that's really a discussion for a different thread.
I have one simple question for you : What can religion provide that is beneficial to people that nothing else can't?

Wafaa79

Jernal wrote: »

Two other things,
True idealistic altruism probably doesn't exist but that's really a discussion for a different thread.
I have one simple question for you : What can religion provide that is beneficial to people that nothing else can't?

I disagree on what you say about raising money for charity for personal boasting. Granted, there must be people who will do a marathon and raise money purely to show off but most do it because they feel they are participating to a good cause.
I take myself as an example: I did the Flora mini-marathon and raised money for Autism. I didn’t do it so people would go: “wow she is so cool”, especially since running 10K was not exactly a feat, but I did it because one of my very close relative is affected by the condition and it means a lot to me to contribute to the research in the hope that some day we can find something to help him.
Why not simply give discreetly money in that case? Well I am not a millionaire and even if my friends are generous, I think that putting some effort from my part was a fair step before I asked them if they would not mind donating, after all we all have our problems. And by doing so, I collected much more money that I could have given alone.
Anyway, that’s another topic.
So to answer your question:
Religious people take from religion what they are looking for, like hope, comfort, sense of belonging, principles etc.
Let’s take an example:
If I had a loved one killed in a car crash, it would not bring me any comfort that someone comes to me and say: “well now he is in a better place”. However, I know people to whom this would resonate positively and it would make them feel better because they believe in after-life and Heaven.
So I don’t think you can make a list of things that only religion can provide to people.
It is what people want to make of it that makes it unique to their eyes.

Wafaa79

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Because we are informed time and time again that it is vital that our schools continue to indoctrinate our children into a specific religion as religion is the very fount of morality. Apparently, if left unindoctrinated our children will grew up to lack a moral compass and be unable to distinguish between right and wrong.
..........
So, yes - it can get annoying to be told by people who expect an eternal reward for their 'acts of charity' that I am devoid of morals simply because I do not share their religious beliefs.

It's not up to schools to teach what is right or wrong to kids, it is the duty of the parents. My sister's kids are in a catholic school and the kids aren't even baptized. The kids couldn't care less about what is taught in the religious lessons because their real moral education is done at home.
As for what you are saying on people doing good deeds because religion is asking them too, why should you care? And why should you care if they think you have no morals as an atheist? You are going to give these clothes to VdP because you want to, well good for you, but in the end what matters is that it is going to benefit poor people, not what other people think of it.
I ask you now, does it really matter that some religious people (and I insist on _some_ because they are not all like that) will look down at your good deed because you have not the same beliefs at them.
You are giving these clothes to help poor people, not to get approval from people who don’t respect you, right?

Turtwig

Wafaa79 wrote: »

I disagree . . .
Anyway, that’s another topic.

Yeah you're right it is another topic but I think the relevance was more to trying to illustrate the various levels of altruisms in donating to charities.

So to answer your question:
Religious people take from religion what they are looking for, like hope, comfort, sense of belonging, principles etc.

My question was : "What can religion provide that is beneficial to people that nothing else can't?"
Your answer : Religion.
Then you followed up with. "I don’t think you can make a list of things that only religion can provide to people".
So basically religion has no real necessity or unique utility then.


With regard to the car crash or just death itself. There's several threads on this with varying opinions, so I'll keep my opinion brief. Lying to yourself about anything isn't good. We're the best liars to ourselves, but until you accept the reality of what has happened you won't be able to overcome your grief/trauma. Part of the deal in getting over our emotions is first learning that we deny we actually have them. We must accept them, experience them and then let them go. Heaven is comforting but it's nothing more than a false comfort that, in my view, actually hinders people form grieving.

coffee_cake

I just thought I'd add that I like Gregorian Chant too.
And a bit of Monteverdi vespers :cool:

Wafaa79

Jernal wrote: »

My question was : "What can religion provide that is beneficial to people that nothing else can't?"
Your answer : Religion.
Then you followed up with. "I don’t think you can make a list of things that only religion can provide to people".
So basically religion has no real necessity or unique utility then.


With regard to the car crash or just death itself. There's several threads on this with varying opinions, so I'll keep my opinion brief. Lying to yourself about anything isn't good. We're the best liars to ourselves, but until you accept the reality of what has happened you won't be able to overcome your grief/trauma. Part of the deal in getting over our emotions is first learning that we deny we actually have them. We must accept them, experience them and then let them go. Heaven is comforting but it's nothing more than a false comfort that, in my view, actually hinders people form grieving.

You say lying to yourself because you don't believe in Heaven it but these people do, they could return the argument to you by saying, it is going to be ok, the dead person is happier now. And at the end of the day, no one can say if there is or isn't something after death, because let's face it, you have to be dead to know ;-)
I didn't say religion is your answer to your question. You are taking it from your perspective. I am taking it from the other. A religious person will think that there is only hope and comfort in God. It has a necessity and unique utility for them. A true believer carries on through life struggles thanks to the support they get from religion.
I really feel that there is not right or wrong answer to the question. I don't need religion to be a happy person or to be caring, but I understand that people get strength and purpose from it.

Bannasidhe

bluewolf wrote: »

I just thought I'd add that I like Gregorian Chant too.
And a bit of Monteverdi vespers :cool:

I also have a soft spot for Handel's Messiah, Mozart's Requiem and the paintings of El Greco and Caravaggio.

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I also have a soft spot for Handel's Messiah, Mozart's Requiem and the paintings of El Greco and Caravaggio.

While heartily agreeing about El Greco and Caravaggio, Mozart's Dies Irae could not forgive the trombone solo in the Tuba mirum. And I've had lengthy rants published in the Irish Times about Messiah, but that's another story.

As for choral requiems, well, IMNSHO, Duruflé's comparatively poorly-known, but exquisite, masterpiece of 1947 is unlikely to be exceeded. The best recording of many I've come across is James O'Donnel's 1994 recording at Westminster. When they're burying me, I'll still be dreaming its sublime In Paradisum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWO9RuER35g

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I also have a soft spot for Handel's Messiah, Mozart's Requiem and the paintings of El Greco and Caravaggio.

Quite like Bach's cello sonatas in b minor....and illuminated manuscripts